2018 Europeans Ladies FS

[Yuzuruu]

I have a genuine question about the vicotry ceremony for ladies. I have been watching figure skating for some years now and noticed that there is an unspoken "rule" that after the medal ceremony skaters go greet and thank the audience and the winner basically always goes first. I always thought it's nice and just common courtesy and manners to let the winner go first at least for the first round. I even rewatched some finals to check if I remember it right and I am definitely correct on this. I always liked Evgenia, she seems like a sweet person and a pretty good skater so I have to say it struck me as incredibly rude of her to spring off the podium and run to go greet the audience first... She did not even look behind her If the winner is following, she did not let Alina go first, she went really fast and never looked back. Honestly I am somewhat dissapointed with that behavior. Do somebody have any idea why she did that?

 

[begin]

I have a genuine question about the vicotry ceremony for ladies. I have been watching figure skating for some years now and noticed that there is an unspoken "rule" that after the medal ceremony skaters go greet and thank the audience and the winner basically always goes first. I always thought it's nice and just common courtesy and manners to let the winner go first at least for the first round. I even rewatched some finals to check if I remember it right and I am definitely correct on this. I always liked Evgenia, she seems like a sweet person and a pretty good skater so I have to say it struck me as incredibly rude of her to spring off the podium and run to go greet the audience first... She did not even look behind her If the winner is following, she did not let Alina go first, she went really fast and never looked back. Honestly I am somewhat dissapointed with that behavior. Do somebody have any idea why she did that?

She's young and used to winning. Not a big deal and not worth dissecting.

 

[MaiKatze]

I have a genuine question about the vicotry ceremony for ladies. I have been watching figure skating for some years now and noticed that there is an unspoken "rule" that after the medal ceremony skaters go greet and thank the audience and the winner basically always goes first. I always thought it's nice and just common courtesy and manners to let the winner go first at least for the first round. I even rewatched some finals to check if I remember it right and I am definitely correct on this. I always liked Evgenia, she seems like a sweet person and a pretty good skater so I have to say it struck me as incredibly rude of her to spring off the podium and run to go greet the audience first... She did not even look behind her If the winner is following, she did not let Alina go first, she went really fast and never looked back. Honestly I am somewhat dissapointed with that behavior. Do somebody have any idea why she did that?

Perhaps it was a habit? She's used to be the winner after all. I don't think there was any malice involved, they skated all over each other in the victory lap. And one loss doesn't mean she's not Number 1 anymore in the hearts of the russian audience. You could see that in the Gala, too, where she was also presented as the star. It was perhaps planned before the competition happened?

 

[OS]

One more thing worth to consider about Zaigtova's PCS

Alina's same FS program LESS THAN 10 month ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeZPNJARhLw

had received PCS 62.21 and was justifiably beaten by Marin Honda at JuniorWC, certainly interms of SS, PE, Compositions and Interpretation
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/wjc2017/wjc2017_JuniorLadies_FS_Scores.pdf

Miraculously in Russia as the new Russia number 1 in an Olympic year at the super inflated EC in Sochi, it boosted to 75.30
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/ec2018/ec2018_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

Apparently a gimmicky Junior program with little depth or attempt in interpretion and missing music/choreographic cues - lacks in sophistication, refinement, maturity, careless in musicality or sensitivity is the golden standard of Senior ladies figure skating because of who she is, not the program. That says alot about the sport really and the people who manages them, particularly how they continued to hijacked unjustified PCS (+GOEs) to do it.

 

[skatingfan200]

I have a genuine question about the vicotry ceremony for ladies. I have been watching figure skating for some years now and noticed that there is an unspoken "rule" that after the medal ceremony skaters go greet and thank the audience and the winner basically always goes first. I always thought it's nice and just common courtesy and manners to let the winner go first at least for the first round. I even rewatched some finals to check if I remember it right and I am definitely correct on this. I always liked Evgenia, she seems like a sweet person and a pretty good skater so I have to say it struck me as incredibly rude of her to spring off the podium and run to go greet the audience first... She did not even look behind her If the winner is following, she did not let Alina go first, she went really fast and never looked back. Honestly I am somewhat dissapointed with that behavior. Do somebody have any idea why she did that?

Because she wants to make clear how the results will be in South Korea.

 

[Yuzuruu]

Because she wants to make clear how the results will be in South Korea.

We don't know what the result will be Personally I think Alina will win.

As for other answers - I know she's young and used to winning and a big star in Russia, but she's also Alina's friend (supposedly) and she claims she's happy with the result so why not let her friend go first? Well maybe it's not worth dissecting, rude is rude. Sad for me because I like both ladies and I wanted Alina to have a nice moment

 

[Spirals for Miles]

I have a genuine question about the vicotry ceremony for ladies. I have been watching figure skating for some years now and noticed that there is an unspoken "rule" that after the medal ceremony skaters go greet and thank the audience and the winner basically always goes first. I always thought it's nice and just common courtesy and manners to let the winner go first at least for the first round. I even rewatched some finals to check if I remember it right and I am definitely correct on this. I always liked Evgenia, she seems like a sweet person and a pretty good skater so I have to say it struck me as incredibly rude of her to spring off the podium and run to go greet the audience first... She did not even look behind her If the winner is following, she did not let Alina go first, she went really fast and never looked back. Honestly I am somewhat dissapointed with that behavior. Do somebody have any idea why she did that?

I don't know if it's really a hard and fast rule.
I've seen it sometimes, not just this, where the silver medalist goes first, then the gold, then the bronze, simply because that's the order of the podium.
I am sure Zhenya's not trying to be rude...

 

[Icey]

I guess I don't understand how performance is to be judged; nevertheless, I find it questionable, that only one judge gave Carolina less than 9 for her performance, an 8.75. Personally, I would have given her even lower than that.

 

[Blades of Passion]

So give us your name and credentials and explain why you are expounding on a fan board? Also, show us where IJS mentions pre-rotations as it applies to the jump you are complaining about.

There are skaters, judges, and officials who have been here and even posted, it's not just a "fan board". I post here because I like having a centralized place to talk about skating, with anyone in the world. Information should be shared and better understood by all. My name is Tim Gerber, I'm a former skater who trained as a tech specialist and choreographer. I've worked with people inside (and outside) the ISU for many years at creating reforms to ice skating and changes to the scoring system. I can link you to some reading material if you'd like, I'm also doing an interview with NBC for this upcoming Olympics.

The landing isn't short to me but you're entitled to seeing it the way you see it.

She did barely more than 2 rotations in the air, exactly provable by the footage. That's not "the way I see it", it's something anyone can see if they want to look closely. Such a thing should not be considered a sufficiently rotated Triple. I was able to spot the problem in real-time too, the shape of the jump is simply wrong in motion, it visibly looks short.

Nobody except you and select others who dislike Medvedeva cares that her toe takes off at 185 degrees instead of 180 degrees

Her toe doesn't take off at 185 degrees, it's past that, nor is my scientific analysis of her jumps the result of disliking her. I've applied this exact analysis to everyone for over a decade now, including people I like. You don't seem to be looking or listening, only ignoring.

5 degrees of rotation can make all the difference in calling something underrotated or not, tech panels have to make these calls exactly as close as they can. If something is 5 degrees short of the rotation mark (and let's assume for a moment that a jump had the exact allowable amount of pre-rotation), it has to be called, that's just the rule. You defend this all the time, so stop being so hypocritical. Underrotations aren't 100% verifiable in every instance in real time and it does get annoying at times to laser focus in on the jump rotations, but fair is fair and there needs to be a clear and accurate system.

It would rarely be a big a deal anyway if the jumps were actually judged well; a visibly borderline jump that doesn't get the underrotation call should be given -1 less in the total GOE, whereas a jump that does get the underrotation call shouldn't be given any further GOE penalty. This way the points would be closer in the end and the tech panel deciding which way to make the call would not be such an all-consuming thing.

Real talk though: nobody who is responsible for the scores (I.e. Any one truly important, whose opinions the skaters actually care about) really cares a whole lot about pre-rotation to the extent you and others do.

Incorrect, there ARE tech specialists and others involved with skating who care, and even if 0 people who were chosen to judge at competitions were aware of it or cared, that doesn't mean it's how things should be.

Actual skaters who have better technique certainly do care and would care that they are not getting they credit they deserve. As someone who did Triple jumps and tried varying techniques, it is definitely easier to do a jump by pre-rotating around on the toepick and then doing less actual rotation in the air. People should not be getting the same amount of credit for a jump that blatantly takes less effort to execute and becomes easier to control because of the lesser amount of rotation that is being executed by the skater. That is exactly why a Triple jump is worth more than a Double jump or a Triple Lutz worth more than a Triple Toe, because the varying levels of difficulty on the rotation or takeoff is being credited.

perhaps I should start drafting an inconsequential letter to the ISU

You've tried this false snark before and I'm getting tired of it. The work I did in 2014 (and prior to that and since then) has created actual changes to the scoring system. No rational person would consider that inconsequential.

 

[VenusHalley]

I hate Zagitova's tutu as well - unflattering. It makes her look more bent forward than she is for me and breaks her line.

I hatethe tutu too. It's too forceful and looks.... childish. Like little kid going for carneval dress as ballerina without actually knowing how to do ballet.

IT seems the tutu is there to make us think Alina is ballerina.... she is not. I would be interested to see her skate to something fresher edgier that would take advantage of her athletic side.

 

[jenaj]

There are skaters, judges, and officials who have been here and even posted, it's not just a "fan board". I post here because I like having a centralized place to talk about skating, with anyone in the world. Information should be shared and better understood by all. My name is Tim Gerber, I'm a former skater who trained as a tech specialist and choreographer. I've worked with people inside (and outside) the ISU for many years at creating reforms to ice skating and changes to the scoring system. I can link you to some reading material if you'd like, I'm also doing an interview with NBC for this upcoming Olympics.

That doesn't establish your superior knowledge. IJS has been around for over 10 years now. It isn't rocket science. You have your favorites; so do others. That makes you a fan just like everyone else.

 

[qwertyskates]

Let's all just accept that all of us have different taste, different preferences, different favourites, different opinions, etc.

The value of the disagreement is simply to present an alternative view, and the more objective the reasons, logic, etc., the more constructive the exchange.

In the end, whatever we opine, it doesn't have any impact on the results, unless one goes on a venedetta...ahem..like on youtube...which actually just damages the sport and puts off fans.

The Russians have contributed in a major way to the sport. Unless the corruption is clear, and ONLY the Russians are guilty of certain unsporting behavior (eg. PCS inflation, ignoring URs and wrong edges,), I don't think it helps the sport and it would be poorer without their participation, without Plushenko, without Med, without Eteri, without Tat, Mishin, etc.

 

[koatcue]

I love how when Zagitova does them and they are ballet related moves but when a North American like Osmond or Nathan Chen (who has ballet training) does them they get criticized. I wonder why that is?! #RhetoricalQuestion :sarcasm:

It's the same with Alina and if you paid more attention, you'd recall me liking Kaetlyn this year. She got better with the season (better posture, hitting jumps with the music and so on). People LOOOVE nitpicking, even if there is not much to dislike

 

[qwertyskates]

Precisely why I don't like them much. The basics of ballet are wonderful when put to use in meaningful skating choreography. Ballet itself does not translate well onto the ice. Very, very few skaters have the skill and fundamentals to make it work and not look ridiculous. Alina, at this point, is not one of those skaters. Trying to mold her into a ballerina smacks of parody to me.

As is perpetually the case with talented Eteri girls, I wish she were working with different choreographers.

Actually a lot of balletic poses have been adopted into figure skating. Charlotte is forward penche, Ina Bauer is cambre in 4th position, attitude, split jump is grand jete, etc. So ballet has been incorporated into figure skating language for a long time and no, not ridiculous at all to figure skate to a ballet program. Of all people, the Russians are the ones I would least doubt about knowledge and mastery of ballet vocabulary.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I’ve just started catching up.

Zhenya: Shaking off the rust but overall pretty solid. Smart move not to skip this event and get one in before the Olympics and we know she can perform better and probably will in Korea. This Free Program is really nice for her and the best in a while.

Alina Zagitova : Sorry ...I don’t watch this program anymore unless it’s on a live feed. I’ve seen it too many times. Looking forward to seeing her SP though when time permits.

Caro: This was a hot mess. I feel for the few judges who had to go all the way from perfect 10’s down to 9.75. Must be heartbreaking for them. When Caro is on she is on but when she is off she is off. Don’t let the protocols fool you here. Nicole Rajicova would have scored higher on my score card in PCS for her efforts here. That’s no insult either. I don’t mind the costume...it was the performance that distracted me from enjoying the green jumpsuit.

Masha: Ugh...better than Nationals but she’s been so consistent and reliable the last few years it has me a little worried. I think the judges score her PCS a little lower than I would and I suspect it’s the tano spamming that likley is causing it. I clearly she is a few years ahead of her time Anyone else feel like heading out and playing in the snow while watching her perform this program? I just wanna throw snowballs...toss my little cousins into the snow....go sledding...and skate the old pond we always did as kids when watch this program. It’s one of my favorite this year !

Nicole Rajicova has a great presence. Even though this performance was flawed she stayed with it and seemed to really enjoy the moment. Her StSeq is a huge highlight for me. She doesn’t change it a whole lot year to year but she has improved her confidence and delivery. When the program ended I just loved her emotion. She was frustrated but also confident in what she did. I hope she continues to skate for many more seasons. She is so worthy of a Euros medal!

 

[Miss Ice]

One more thing worth to consider about Zaigtova's PCS

Alina's same FS program LESS THAN 10 month ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeZPNJARhLw

had received PCS 62.21 and was justifiably beaten by Marin Honda at JuniorWC, certainly interms of SS, PE, Compositions and Interpretation
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/wjc2017/wjc2017_JuniorLadies_FS_Scores.pdf

Miraculously in Russia as the new Russia number 1 in an Olympic year at the super inflated EC in Sochi, it boosted to 75.30
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/ec2018/ec2018_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

Apparently a gimmicky Junior program with little depth or attempt in interpretion and missing music/choreographic cues - lacks in sophistication, refinement, maturity, careless in musicality or sensitivity is the golden standard of Senior ladies figure skating because of who she is, not the program. That says alot about the sport really and the people who manages them, particularly how they continued to hijacked unjustified PCS (+GOEs) to do it.

The problem is that these young skaters like Zagitova, upon earning these marks, think that they have hit some kind of artistic and SS ceiling. I actually believe that with some proper ballet training and an international coach (like Orser) + good choregraphy Zagitova could become a much more refined and expressive skater. Instead, the judges' scores are telling her that there is literally nothing she needs to do to improve...

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

The problem is that these young skaters like Zagitova, upon earning these marks, think that they have hit some kind of artistic and SS ceiling. I actually believe that with some proper ballet training and an international coach (like Orser) + good choregraphy Zagitova could become a much more refined and expressive skater. Instead, the judges' scores are telling her that there is literally nothing she needs to do to improve...

Most athletes are driven by an inside desire to improve themselves and their abilities. It’s often an obsession! I think you are projecting onto Alina here. She will improve as much as she possibly can because that’s what elite athletes do. They love the sport and not the scores. Yes they strive to achieve the highest score possible but they usually speak about the performance and not the score. They aren’t lying...they are very competitive! It’s the fans who obsess about the scores. I’m not sure why you think Alina is trying to do as little as possible. I see no indications to suggest this and she seems very driven to me.

 

[qwertyskates]

Most athletes are driven by an inside desire to improve themselves and their abilities. It’s often an obsession! I think you are projecting onto Alina here. She will improve as much as she possibly can because that’s what elite athletes do. They love the sport and not the scores. Yes they strive to achieve the highest score possible but they usually speak about the performance and not the score. They aren’t lying...they are very competitive! It’s the fans who obsess about the scores. I’m not sure why you think Alina is trying to do as little as possible. I see no indications to suggest this and she seems very driven to me.

Yeah, I read a lot of posts about how giving all these high marks would mean that the skaters will think they are so great, they are at the top, and will rest on their laurels, quit the sport, etc. so they should receive lower marks. That's one of the funniest reasons I hear..., imagine saying the same about Yuzuru getting too high PCS rise before Sochi, actually he did receive 15+ points increase in PCS over one year right before Sochi to become competitive with Patrick. There was even a thread about this. I figure they felt it wouldn't be fair if he lost to Patrick on PCS while performing much more difficult programs. Getting WR monster points didn't seem to stop Yuzuru's momentum and ambition, but when it comes to Zagi it would! Don't ask how, we just KNOW.

 

[koatcue]

The problem is that these young skaters like Zagitova, upon earning these marks, think that they have hit some kind of artistic and SS ceiling. I actually believe that with some proper ballet training and an international coach (like Orser) + good choregraphy Zagitova could become a much more refined and expressive skater. Instead, the judges' scores are telling her that there is literally nothing she needs to do to improve...

How is going to Orser makes you a more expressive skater? He won't make a Yuna out of any skater, it doesn't work like that.

 

[FSLover17]

She should go to Sandra Bezic to have choreography done. People have already mentioned her similarities to Tara Lipinski and when Tara was criticized for being robotic and not extending, she went to a ballet teacher for help with her extension and Sandra for choreography. Whether or not you think Tara deserved gold in Nagano, its hard to say she didn't improve artistically in her Olympic season.