2018 US Championships Sr Men SP

[TCAngel18]

I wish they could pull multiple camera angles for determining UR’s. That NBC angle in the replay was really telling for me, from when the toe pick hit the ice to when his free leg continued the natural progression of a jump landing, it felt to me almost a half revolution short. From when his blade landed to the progression point was 120 degrees to my eyes, but you have to take in consideration the toe pick as well. There were other underrotations that were also overlooked, but this one would have changed standings the most.

 

[TCAngel18]

In response to my above, I think a slightly stricter caller would have called it UR, and perhaps a caller like Shin Amano could have called it a DG.

 

[el henry]

I was railing against Jason's Hamilton program before it was cool to do so.

Which, apparently, it is now,. Cool, I mean. Where have all the kindred spirits been all season?

I'm still looking forward to his LP, which I like very very much.

.....

Oh Tonto, there have been folks railing against Hamilton all year. You’re spending too much time with Jason’s fans If you want, I can tell you who Jason’s biggest detractors are by DM, if you like. You can all commiserate together

My amusement is all of Grant’s new best friends, not that he doesn’t deserve them. I am scarcely a Grant fan of @Mathman’s standing, but I have rooted for him. I wonder if he’d have so many friends if it wasn’t Jason in third place:scratch3: sorry, I am paranoid, reading this thread has done that to me

But you can’t get on the Grant train unless you know who Qiu Qiu is

 

[frallik]

"Chen & the Ladies" - the sliding speed is below average, no 4 Lutz, 3 Axel - gross blunder, sliding ONLY on 2 skates - level 2, no choreography - music is separate/boring to watch, spins are simple - level 3, costume - training suit(?), new haircut - so he's going to win Hanyu and Shoma???

 

[lavender]

Oh Tonto, there have been folks railing against Hamilton all year. You’re spending too much time with Jason’s fans If you want, I can tell you who Jason’s biggest detractors are by DM, if you like. You can all commiserate together

My amusement is all of Grant’s new best friends, not that he doesn’t deserve them. I am scarcely a Grant fan of @Mathman’s standing, but I have rooted for him. I wonder if he’d have so many friends if it wasn’t Jason in third place:scratch3: sorry, I am paranoid, reading this thread has done that to me

But you can’t get on the Grant train unless you know who Qiu Qiu is

I love Jason but I'm not a fan of this particular short but he skated it great. I guess people have stop loving Jason and his neverending happiness. I love the guy and I hope nothing takes away his joy. It's enough bad in the world.

 

[Feline Feeder]

It's pretty obvious that they have made up their minds who they want to send: Nathan, Jason and Adam. That's fine. That's who I would pick, too, but they have made a two-tier system for getting those results.

#1-Go easier on them than others in terms of anything subjective, which is pretty much the entire sport.
#2-Decide that the nationals don't count for much, and you'll pick them anyway.

If Grant and/or Vincent comes in higher than Jason and/or Adam, they will not get on the team. It's sad.

As for the popularity of the sport, it becomes almost painful to watch, if you've felt you were the victim of an unfair boss or whatever. I've been having some problems at work (which I obviously won't get into here) and I almost feel anxious when people start bringing up charges of favoritism and politics. That's life, but sports is supposed to be an escape.

 

[TerpsichoreFS]

I am far from an expert in linguistics. The Wade-Giles system was invented by British scholars and diplomats in the 1800s, and was standard in the Western world until the 1970s. The modern system was invented in China by Chinese scholars in the 1950s and gradually took over world wide.

"Chou" and "Zhou" not only sound the same, they are the same (although there are differences in pronunciation among various Chinese spoken dialects). In English they are pronounced like the name "Joe." I am sure that there are many Chinese speakers on the board that can supply more details.

That Zh at the beginning leads some English speakers to think that it ought to be pronounced like French j or like the z in azzure, but it's not. IIRC Caroline Zhang ("J'ong") once mentioned that she has gotten used to being introduced in ice shows as "Caroline Zang" (rhymes with Twang).

The Chinese has always had their own phonetic symbols (sort of like the alphabets but not used in actual words). The Wade-Giles system tried to emulate the sounds of Chinese words but there are so many differentiations that alphabets can't cover. China then adopted the alphabets to represent their phonetic symbols (Bo Po Mo Fo system) so the alphabet translations are standardized and used by the Chinese themselves. However, the alphabets representing these symbols don't always sound the same as how it is usually pronounced. E.g. there are three variations that used to be covered by "ch" such that "q" is used after "c" and "ch" are adopted. As well, the same "spelling" may cover many words but does not specify a specific word with its specific tone/phonetic.

FYI, Cong of Han Cong should be pronounced more like Chong than Kong.

Thank you both for your answers. I learned something today.

 

[xabia]

I've just watched the Men SP via Mr Marqus on YouTube . I've no idea who Mr Marqus is but he or she has done an enormous favour to those of us who can't watch live due to where we live. So Mr Marqus - you're a star, and have given me an evening of excitement and entertainment.
I've also read a few of the comments on this forum. I only want to say two things:
1. Nathan looks fabulous in his new costume and the haircut is super cool.
2. I'm in love with Jimmy Ma (and have been since I first saw him two years ago at US Nationals). Could you imagine if he did a show number with Florent Amodio? That would be sensational.

 

[Ophelia]

Jimmy Ma's SP was thoroughly entertaining. I burst aloud laughing. I would give him extra 10 points for pulling that program off and throw all the money at him to watching him skate in performances.

Man, I would totally go frat-club partying with Jimmy.

 

[medoroa]

"Chen & the Ladies" - the sliding speed is below average, no 4 Lutz, 3 Axel - gross blunder, sliding ONLY on 2 skates - level 2, no choreography - music is separate/boring to watch, spins are simple - level 3, costume - training suit(?), new haircut - so he's going to win Hanyu and Shoma???

I can't tell if this comment is serious. He has already won over Hanyu and Uno; Hanyu has only landed the 4lz in competition once (not in combination); 3A is Uno's least favorite jump that he has blundered plenty of times before; if you want to talk about SS criteria Hanyu might have the speed but lacks the edges; Chen's SP choreography has been praised all season; Chen had a level 4 spin at GPF where Uno had a level 3 (which the Japanese media was quick to point out since he could have won with a level 4); etc. etc. etc. Or am I reading this comment wrong...

(I love Uno! I want Chen and Uno 1-2 finish in February, don't make me diss him!)

 

[NathanandMiraifan111]

I was railing against Jason's Hamilton program before it was cool to do so.

Which, apparently, it is now,. Cool, I mean. Where have all the kindred spirits been all season?

I've been here all season. I don't understand the hype, its an awkward program and doesn't make sense outside the musical. It neither draws people in, or shows off his artistic prowess. It would be a fine show piece, but for competition it is too jagged and not lyrical enough for him. I'm glad he seems to love the program though, and that is all that matters really.

 

[TCAngel18]

I've been here all season. I don't understand the hype, its an awkward program and doesn't make sense outside the musical. It neither draws people in, or shows off his artistic prowess. It would be a fine show piece, but for competition it is too jagged and not lyrical enough for him. I'm glad he seems to love the program though, and that is all that matters really.

Exactlyyyyy. As a piece by itself, it’s very repetitive, and you don’t get the social awareness aspect of actually seeing it in the theater and experiencing the whole show.

If He wanted a winner, he should have retooled Riverdance into a SP. it’s what made him go viral back in 2014. I get that he wanted to grow as an artist; well, that’s what his brilliant LP is for. This SP just seems contrived.

 

[NathanandMiraifan111]

"Chen & the Ladies" - the sliding speed is below average, no 4 Lutz, 3 Axel - gross blunder, sliding ONLY on 2 skates - level 2, no choreography - music is separate/boring to watch, spins are simple - level 3, costume - training suit(?), new haircut - so he's going to win Hanyu and Shoma???

All I have to say is Haters gonna hate. Are you really calling Nathan's step sequence level 2? I'm not sure what you're seeing, because his step sequence is the most intricate stseq of all the men this season, and he continually gets +3 GOE for it. Also, his current layout is not the one we will be seeing at the olympics. I believe he will be doing his GPF layout there, 4Lz+3T, 4F, 4S, 4Lz, 4T+1Lo+3S, 3A+2T, 3A, 3 Lz. Something is wrong with the Lutz this week, hopefully it is because of lack of training from sickness and not a rumored ankle injury as Michael Weiss was saying in the SP. I think for the FS he will be doing 4F+3T, 4F, 4T or 4S, 3 Lo, 4T+2T+2Lo, 3A, 4S, 3F, judging from Jackie Wong's practice reports. That layout is already competitive without the 4Lz. Shoma and Hanyu are wonderful, the olympics should be amazing if everyone is there and healthy.

You don't need to bash US men on a US men thread by calling them "the ladies." If you look at the depth of the men's field in other countries, you will see men with the same or less jumping ability outside of the top 2 (except russia, where everyone has an inconsistent 4 Lz and other inconsistent quads). Japan has Keiji Tanaka with inconsistent 4S and everyone else with inconsistent quads. Canada only has Nam with consistent quads and Kevin who almost always URs, everyone else is inconsistent. The US men have some depth, Vincent is up and coming and is getting more consistent with his quads, Max always rotates his 4T and only falters the 4S when nervous (although unfortunately didn't land his quads during the SP), Alex K is trying the 4Lo, Adam has an UR 4Lz, Jason will try the 4T, Grant lands the 4T+3T combo and 4T often enough, Ross has a 4S, Tim Dolensky is doing the 4S in his free. The junior men are very talented as well. I think the US men just need to be more fearless, the more you do a jump in competition, the more stable it will be. We need more people like Nathan and Vincent who aren't afraid to try the big jumps in both the SP and LP. /end rant.

 

[TCAngel18]

All I have to say is Haters gonna hate. Are you really calling Nathan's step sequence level 2? I'm not sure what you're seeing, because his step sequence is the most intricate stseq of all the men this season, and he continually gets +3 GOE for it. Also, his current layout is not the one we will be seeing at the olympics. I believe he will be doing his GPF layout there, 4Lz+3T, 4F, 4S, 4Lz, 4T+1Lo+3S, 3A+2T, 3A, 3 Lz. Something is wrong with the Lutz this week, hopefully it is because of lack of training from sickness and not a rumored ankle injury as Michael Weiss was saying in the SP. I think for the FS he will be doing 4F+3T, 4F, 4T or 4S, 3 Lo, 4T+2T+2Lo, 3A, 4S, 3F, judging from Jackie Wong's practice reports. That layout is already competitive without the 4Lz. Shoma and Hanyu are wonderful, the olympics should be amazing if everyone is there and healthy.

You don't need to bash US men on a US men thread by calling them "the ladies." If you look at the depth of the men's field in other countries, you will see men with the same or less jumping ability outside of the top 2 (except russia, where everyone has an inconsistent 4 Lz and other inconsistent quads). Japan has Keiji Tanaka with inconsistent 4S and everyone else with inconsistent quads. Canada only has Nam with consistent quads and Kevin who almost always URs, everyone else is inconsistent. The US men have some depth, Vincent is up and coming and is getting more consistent with his quads, Max always rotates his 4T and only falters the 4S when nervous (although unfortunately didn't land his quads during the SP), Alex K is trying the 4Lo, Adam has an UR 4Lz, Jason will try the 4T, Grant lands the 4T+3T combo and 4T often enough, Ross has a 4S, Tim Dolensky is doing the 4S in his free. The junior men are very talented as well. I think the US men just need to be more fearless, the more you do a jump in competition, the more stable it will be. We need more people like Nathan and Vincent who aren't afraid to try the big jumps in both the SP and LP. /end rant.

Nice rant! Agreed. However, it’s like trying to stop the tide, sometimes.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I wish they could pull multiple camera angles for determining UR’s. That NBC angle in the replay was really telling for me, from when the toe pick hit the ice to when his free leg continued the natural progression of a jump landing, it felt to me almost a half revolution short.

Jason's 3Axel wasn't even close to 1/2 short, Johnny & Tara are just poisoning the well there. In general people don't seem to be paying attention to the angle he took off from, your idea about where the blade turns after he lands has nothing to do with measuring rotation. Look at the direction of the blade from the moment he steps to the takeoff foot (something not shown very well in the super close-up replay), he should be landing at least 1/4 past that point, and I'd say he does. Also he has a "real" takeoff on his axel, some people do a full half turn on their axel takeoff (especially common among the Ladies these days), but his is less than that. It's very possible to a Triple Axel that is just 2.75 rotations in the air and get the full base value credit, Jason's jump was more than that.

 

[TCAngel18]

Jason's 3Axel wasn't even close to 1/2 short, Johnny & Tara are just poisoning the well there. In general people don't seem to be paying attention to the angle he took off from, your idea about where the blade turns after he lands has nothing to do with measuring rotation. Look at the direction of the blade from the moment he steps to the takeoff foot (something not shown very well in the super close-up replay), he should be landing at least 1/4 past that point, and I'd say he does. Also he has a "real" takeoff on his axel, some people do a full half turn on their axel takeoff (especially common among the Ladies these days), but his is less than that. It's very possible to a Triple Axel that is just 2.75 rotations in the air and get the full base value credit, Jason's jump was more than that.

I wasn’t watching the NBC link originally, I was on the JSports link. I only went to the NBC link after the fact, from the results thread, to look at the closeup at 4:14, or wherever it was, without sound, frankly because I didn’t want to hear them.

Prerotation, or the lack thereof, perhaps should be looked into (we’re looking at you, Shoma Uno), but isn’t in the rules at this point. Right now, they determine blade movement and location upon landing, based upon body position on takeoff, body position upon landing, and glideout edge. Even though his Axel takeoff was true, without prerotation, his landing from when the toepick hit the ice, to the rest of the blade impacting, to him gliding out on the edge, there was more than a 90 degree discrepancy. 120 between the blade hitting and the glideout, and perhaps 150 plus, from when his toepick hit, to the glideout edge. If I’m getting that term wrong, sorry. It’s the best way to describe it in my head.

Whether that is a fair situation, is debatable. However, it is a just situation, based upon the rules that are currently in play and in place.

Perhaps the two foot put those movements into play, and without it, the glideout would have been sooner, and The underrotation wouldn’t even be in question.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Glideout edge has nothing to do with measuring rotation. Again, look specifically for the moment where he stepped to his takeoff foot. From the direction of his blade at that point, his landing should be 1/4 past it.

 

[deedee1]

Who to Oly team aside, performances of Sean, Timothy, Grant and Ross made my day!
To share such moments with skaters is one big reason I am following the sport. :yes:

 

[brightphoton]

Wait...we only have 2 spots for the men?

Yes, one spot is reserved for Nathan. So there are two available spots

 

[lavender]

Yes, one spot is reserved for Nathan. So there are two available spots

yeah I got that several post ago.