2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

dhjh811

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 23, 2014
Well, that's the point. That's why you can't compare football stars to figure skaters.
The rules of football and the athletic skills requiered to succeed in it have stayed exactly the same for decades, while in figure skating, the rules are changing constantly and the sport is evolving so quickly (in Russia), that the older skaters will always be catching up to the newer generations, who were brought up: a) knowing that ultra-c jumps are not only possible but necessary and b) training them from a young age.

Another point is that the careers of figure skaters are super short compared to the careers of footballers. Messi is what? in his 30's now? But it took him a 15+ year long career to become who he is now. If Messi had had to retire at 18, I doubt anyone would even know his name.
To be fair, a footballer retiring at age 18 would be much like a figure skater retiring at about 13. An 18 year old footballer is pretty much in the very beginning stages of his career in present day football. Messi was already well established as one of the best talents of his generation at age 21 and was widely regarded as one of the greatest of all time at age 25. A footballer's prime years is generally in his late 20s to early 30s. If Messi had been performing at his peak in his teenage years and retired at age 18, people would surely remember him but he wouldn't be the legend he is today. Furthermore, it is absolutely not true that the athletic skills required to succeed in football have stayed the same, but that discussion would get far too long. But this is straying from the point. My point is, and not addressing you, that you CANNOT compare Alina to figure skating and Messi to football.
 
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brakes

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 31, 2020
Wait I thought we were discussing sport not a beauty pageant or a bodybuilding competition for who has the hottest, muscular body. Having tons of muscle doesnt automatically makes you a better athletes esp in football. Its not American football where its more about brute strength. Also Messi being short is actually an advantage for him because his center of gravity is lower therefore his balance is much easier. Thats why he can do all those crazy dribbles.
Agreed, but it's not me who used "once-in-a-generation athletic talent" phrase. I respect Messi, he's certainly my top 5 footballer of all time, still he wouldn't be my top 500 athletic talent, that's all. I have no idea why Shayuki used that argument supporting Messi's greatness. :shrug:
 

Jontor

Medalist
Joined
Jan 18, 2018
Country
Sweden
Blast from the Past

I was looking at old Russian Nat Juniors results and I kind of got stuck at 2017 - four years ago.
We all know these skaters, and some of them have already resigned... :(

The results (old GOE system):
1. Alina Zagitova 216.82 (still active...kind of)
2. Stanislava Konstantinova 200.85 (still active)
3. Polina Tsurskaya 200.08 (resigned)
4. Alexandra Trusova 194.60 (still active)
5. Daria Panenkova 192.52 (resigned)
6. Alisa Fedichkina 186.33 (resigned)
7. Anastasia Gubanova 185.79 (still active)
8. Anastasia Gulyakova 182.00 (still active)
9. Ekaterina Kurakova 180.79 (still active for Poland)
10. Anna Tarusina 180.22 (resigned)
11. Elizaveta Nugumanova 178.83 (still active)
12. Sofia Samodurova 176.70 (still active)
13. Viktoria Vasilieva 171.47 (changed to Pairs)
14. Anastasia Tarakanova 165.38 (still active)
15. Maria Talalaikina 163.36 (still active)
16. Alëna Kostornaia 161.25 (still active)
17. Ksenia Pankova 153.07 (?? I don't know this girl)
18. Ekaterina Mitrofanova 151.33 (?? I don't know this girl)

Overall, a tough bunch of young future stars.

I found Maria Talalaikina's free program. Nice, and she was clean. A little rough around the edges and a bit juniorish...but she beat Kostornaia!!

 
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brakes

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 31, 2020
Ever seen Messi play football?

And Alina's physique's hardly special among figure skaters. Supermodel, supernatural stamina? How ridiculous. You can compliment her without this stuff. Being pretty isn't an athletic feature.
Who's talking pretty? Can't you see the girl has been perfect jumping/power/rotational machine with long, graceful legs and arms letting her rock those swan/ballerina extentions? Add to this her insane stamina (she sad after her Olympic FS she could skate one more right away) and you understand she's unique physical phenomenon.
You look at Messi and you see slim, short, regular guy, pretty quick and agile, who worked insanely hard to get when he's now. Respect to him, but it blows my mind how you can put both in the same sentence regarding innate athleticism. :eek:
 

dhjh811

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 23, 2014
Agreed, but it's not me who used "once-in-a-generation athletic talent" phrase. I respect Messi, he's certainly my top 5 footballer of all time, still he wouldn't be my top 500 athletic talent, that's all. I have no idea why Shayuki used that argument supporting Messi's greatness. :shrug:
You realize that being athletically talented doesn't mean you are tall and muscular or have a specific physique? Besides, there is no one specific physique that is advantageous for football. An athletic talent is someone who's quite literally athletically talented. The only reason Barcelona agreed to invest in Messi by paying for his expensive hormone treatments was because he was an athletically talented kid. So there is nothing wrong with Shayuki using "athletic talent" to describe Messi because that's what he is. Not sure why you went straight away to critiquing his physique...
 

brakes

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 31, 2020
You realize that being athletically talented doesn't mean you are tall and muscular or have a specific physique? Besides, there is no one specific physique that is advantageous for football. An athletic talent is someone who's quite literally athletically talented. The only reason Barcelona agreed to invest in Messi by paying for his expensive hormone treatments was because he was an athletically talented kid. So there is nothing wrong with Shayuki using "athletic talent" to describe Messi because that's what he is. Not sure why you went straight away to critiquing his physique...
Shayuki went there, not me. I see many arguments supporting Messi's greatness over Alina, just not his athleticity, come on... :rolleye:
 

bookofcharms

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 8, 2021
Sure that it is better from a fan perspective. But what is unique is more precious. Like in Eminem's song: "if you had one shot, one opportunity to seize everything you ever wanted, one moment, would you capture it, or just let it slip?" Now for a skater in ladies there is truly one shot to capture the OGM after years and years of training and competitions. Trusova, Scherbakova, Kihira even Valieva as 2026 OGM contenders? I would rather say no than yes. That's why the drama, that's why the emphasis.

I just do have a problem with the way skating sees itself as one competition every four years with a bunch of filler in between.

I just do not think that the Olympics tells the full story of the true talent of an athlete.

This is absolutely the case in ladies skating where it's often more about being as young as possible at the right time. For example, what if Valieva wins the Olympics? The narrative of the champions will just jump straight from Sotnikova, Zagitova, Valieva .... just think of the huge talent that actually existed in the sport (in fact dominated and shaped the sport) outside of those names.
 

Shayuki

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Shayuki went there, not me. I see many arguments supporting Messi's greatness over Alina, just not his athleticity, come on... :rolleye:
I'm not talking about bodybuilding, I'm talking about football.

There's athletic ability in sumo wrestling too, doesn't mean the sumo wrestler looks like Christiano Ronaldo. What a waste of time this argument is.

Now, if you are trying to argue that Zagitova is "athletic" in the sense of being more athletic than the top professional athletes in explosive sports, or a "bodybuilding" comparison, then it's simply laughable. That would in my opinion be something like Nafissatou Thiam. So hopefully you're not making such an argument.
 

Finley

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 19, 2014
Ever seen Messi play football?

And Alina's physique's hardly special among figure skaters. Supermodel, supernatural stamina? How ridiculous. You can compliment her without this stuff. Being pretty isn't an athletic feature.
I believe this might have been in reference to her back-loaded programs. Three years ago it was a big deal. Lots of non-Russian figure skating legends were impressed. (Kurt Browning, Scott Hamilton, Tanith Belbin, British Eurosport guys, the list goes on.) Also the combination jump she did in practice at the Olympics blew some commentators away.

I can see that you are entirely unimpressed by Alina and that is fine. Everyone can't like everything. But some people, notably international legends of FS, were in fact impressed with her stamina, her athleticism, and other qualities. The fact that no one else even attempted it at the highest level of competition says a lot.

Much like all records get broken eventually, her tech levels have been bypassed. But in that moment, they were something special.
 
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Finley

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 19, 2014
I just do have a problem with the way skating sees itself as one competition every four years with a bunch of filler in between.

I just do not think that the Olympics tells the full story of the true talent of an athlete.

This is absolutely the case in ladies skating where it's often more about being as young as possible at the right time. For example, what if Valieva wins the Olympics? The narrative of the champions will just jump straight from Sotnikova, Zagitova, Valieva .... just think of the huge talent that actually existed in the sport (in fact dominated and shaped the sport) outside of those names.
True fans will never forget the skaters they love. No matter what they achieve or don't achieve.

Some fans are casual fans. They pay attention every 4 years. There is no wrong way to be a fan and love a sport. (Unless it involves harassing athletes and their fans, but that's another post.)

Everyone cares differently.
 

dhjh811

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 23, 2014
Shayuki went there, not me. I see many arguments supporting Messi's greatness over Alina, just not his athleticity, come on... :rolleye:
You are the one that said Messi is not a special athletic talent solely based on his body type. How can you determine innate athletic ability solely through physique? I guess that means that all supermodels must be athletically gifted and that no short people could ever be innately athletically gifted.
 

dhjh811

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 23, 2014
I believe this might have been in reference to her back-loaded programs. Three years ago it was a big deal. Lots of non-Russian figure skating legends were impressed. (Kurt Browning, Scott Hamilton, Tanith Belbin, British Eurosport guys, the list goes on.) Also the combination jump she did in practice at the Olympics blew some commentators away.

I can see that you are entirely unimpressed by Alina and that is fine. Everyone can't like everything. But some people, notably international legends of FS, were in fact impressed with her stamina, her athleticism, and other qualities. The fact that no one else even attempted it at the highest level of competition says a lot.

Much like all records get broken eventually, her tech levels have been bypassed. But in that moment, they were something special.
I don't think it's that Shayuki is entirely unimpressed by Alina... It's more that someone is making ridiculous claims about Alina being a greater athletic talent than Messi solely based on their body types. Using the word "supermodel" doesn't help either... Does having an aesthetically pleasing body type automatically mean that one is innately athletically talented? "Supernatural stamina" doesn't exactly help either when footballers run about 10 km per match (I know that Alina has amazing stamina for a figure skater, but mentioning that in comparison to Messi? come on...)
 

brakes

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 31, 2020
You are the one that said Messi is not a special athletic talent solely based on his body type. How can you determine innate athletic ability solely through physique? I guess that means that all supermodels must be athletically gifted and that no short people could ever be innately athletically gifted.
I didn't. I brought up Alina's stamina and jumping ability right away. Read more carefully.
 

brakes

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 31, 2020
I don't think it's that Shayuki is entirely unimpressed by Alina... It's more that someone is making ridiculous claims about Alina being a greater athletic talent than Messi solely based on their body types. Using the word "supermodel" doesn't help either... Does having an aesthetically pleasing body type automatically mean that one is innately athletically talented? "Supernatural stamina" doesn't exactly help either when footballers run about 10 km per match (I know that Alina has amazing stamina for a figure skater, but mentioning that in comparison to Messi? come on...)
Aesthetically pleasing body type is important in aesthetically pleasing sport that is figure skating. That's a fact you may not like, but it's still there.
 

dhjh811

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 23, 2014
I didn't. I brought up Alina's stamina and jumping ability right away. Read more carefully.
?
"Messi, an once-in-a-generation athletic talent? Are you kidding me?
Guy is short, unproportionally built, not naturally muscular at all, needed growth hormone as a kid to even take on sports, while
Alina in her best competitive shape looked like a supermodel with supernatural stamina. You must have confused personages we're discussing."

Is this not literally making assumptions about Messi's athletic ability based on his physique alone? Like Shayuki said, this discussion has been pointless with it just going in circles.
 
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