2021-22 Russian Women's Figure Skating | Page 371 | Golden Skate

2021-22 Russian Women's Figure Skating

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Now, going very very off topic from Russian women - one of the things I do wonder about, though, is the use of slow motion. Dolfini [edit: or maybe it was Ambesi?] says that the technical panel has the tools to evaluate jumps with the precision that he shows in that video, but the rule book again explicitly states that their review of the take-off must be conducted at real time speed, not slowed down. So while the technology exists, it isn't allowed under the current rules.
I wonder what was the reason behind this ban. May be originally it was to have judging to be more uniform across the world.
It's not nice if at one place judges use slomo and in another - do not. And making slomo a requirement at that time may be was considered too costly.
 
Well if some, let's say the italian experts, were as good in actual teaching of jumps as they are in media talks, Lara Naki Guttmann would be a world champ.
Well, actually it's not fair. Not everything depends on the coach, there is much more important thing - money.
 
Goodness after Kamila's amazing performance I still wake up to "Kamila can't jump and has dodgy technique" debates 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️

I really wish people would refrain from sh$tting on the girls until their favourites can land consistent triples. But oh well, the interwebs will do what it does.
I personally do mind mind critique if it is truly neutral. But it's so rare...
 
But the load and pressure on Kami's shoulders will be huge. Four skates at such a short time.
Come on, just look at her there. She looks as strong and healthy as it gets and individual event is week away.
There's been zero concern about load or pressure in regard to this decision. 😔
 
I personally do mind mind critique if it is truly neutral. But it's so rare...
It's just that in providing advises and expertises people are always very active. Go to a pub and you will find a nest of football experts who will tell you what this or that coach should have done, what the referee has omitted and how the champion's league would look like if he was in command. Some figure skating discussions are very alike.
 
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First off, thanks a lot for that interesting and detailed post! I'll try to answer in sections so it doesn't become too confusing. :)

I suppose, though, the point could be made that Kamila's take-off is not a bad one according to the current rules, so there would be no reason to cap the GOE. The judges do have to judge according to the rule book, and the rule book does not penalise a take-off that makes use of rotation of the ice, or the skater transferring their weight back along the blade of the picking foot as they rotate, which Dolfini also critiques in that really interesting and informative video. Thank you for linking to it!

Yes, that point could be made and I'm pretty sure that, if asked to justify their decisions, these judges would give the same reason.

However, it says in the rulebook you listed earlier:

"A clear forward (backward for Axel type jump) take-off will be considered as a downgraded jump. The toe loop is the most commonly cheated on take-off jump."

Now, nowhere does it state that only the toe loop is considered in that rule, just that it's the most commonly cheated jump. However, if you look at Kamila's take-off, she starts rotating even before her toe pick hits the ice. Her picking foot also lifts (and this is where she starts actually rotating in the air) when her upper body faces forward. Again, I'm not a technical expert at all and I'm not claiming to be but for me that's very visible. Genuinely asking — did I measure it wrongly? Does she actually not take off facing forward? If so, please correct me.

https://www.another site.com/r/FigureSkating/comments/slpyl7/maximum_prerotation/

I'll just list the another site thread again just so people can check the rotation themselves.

It is a problem that the ISU never explicitly states how many degrees of prerotation are acceptable (unlike, for example, for URs). Also, their last video on correct jump technique that I found and which actually demonstrates the take off, looks like it was published decades ago…


This thread shows the "correct" take off for flip and lutz according to a DVD (lol) by the ISU. There it's clearly visible that you're supposed to start rotating after using the toe pick to lift your self into the air. You're not supposed to twist your upper body into the rotation before even hitting the ice with your toe pick. After all, this is still a jump, you're supposed to complete a significant amount of rotations while in the air, not on the ice.
Now, going very very off topic from Russian women - one of the things I do wonder about, though, is the use of slow motion. Dolfini [edit: or maybe it was Ambesi?] says that the technical panel has the tools to evaluate jumps with the precision that he shows in that video, but the rule book again explicitly states that their review of the take-off must be conducted at real time speed, not slowed down. So while the technology exists, it isn't allowed under the current rules.
I'd say in this case the pre-rotation is visible at real time speed but yes, not using slow-motion makes it a bit harder than it needs to be. Imo, that this is even a thing (slow mo not being allowed) shows probably one of the biggest problems in the ISU currently. They don't utilize the tools available to them. We've seen quite a lot of advancements, it's now possible to measure jump height (helps to evaluate the "good height and length" GOE bullet), speed on landing ("good landing", "flow throughout") etc. etc. At Japanese Nationals, they use a program to judge average speed across the ice, as well as ice coverage. But the ISU is still stuck on not even allowing slow-motion! Why? I have no idea. Maybe it's a cost issue.

Personally, any attempt to reduce subjectivity is welcome. It won't be possible to evaluate categories like "performance" or "interpretation" without some degree of subjectivity, but more technical issues like (pre, under)-rotation really shouldn't be left to the fallible and often biased (it's just how we are) human eye. Or at least not entirely.
 
yes kamila was amazing but why is for example her edgedchange in her combos not noted in her goe? doesnt it say that a disrupted flow in the combination and and edgechange that can be clearly seen in slow motion is exactly that isnt it? should get minus goe or at least less goe? i mean its not kamis fault at all thats the way she was taught to jump but if the judgeds or technical panel just ignores it she doesnt get any incentives to ever try and change it . you can clearly see that she changes the edge inbetween combinations from outside to flat to outside? just really interested in knowing why this gets ignored?
 
What? They are making Valieva skate twice. No substitutions. That is so sad. I was counting on seeing Anna tonight and really thought she deserved a share of this gold medal and it is not like she wouldn’t have gotten the ten points for ROC. But, instead, I get Bolero. Yipppeee 🙄. I like how the Americans distribute their silver medal and the Japanese shared their bronze medal. That is a team effort. If Karen Chen placed 3rd and Nathan skated and won the free skate portion, I’d understand them not making any substitutions. But, USA shared the wealth and RUS is guaranteed a gold medal with substitutions. Why not allow others to get a medal. The more the merrier. I’m upset by this decision.
 
I had no clue who they were. If he actually tought ppl how to jump 3Lz then at least his opinion is interesting for me.
And what was his arguments?
They started out praising her spins and 3A, calling her "the full package" and then got into her toe-jumps (flip and lutz). He questions if they should be called as clean Triples (reminder, a clear forward take-off warrants a downgrade - for him, her pre-rotation is visible enough in real-time to do so) and amends that if they are called as clean Triples (mentioning that she does well to not underrotate her jumps, like other skaters with similar technique), they should not receive as high GOEs as they currently receive. (He clearly counts an excessive amount of pre-rotation as falling under the "bad take-off" category (and to be honest, I'm not sure what else would constitute a bad take-off other than pre-rotation or full-bladed take-off on toe-jumps :scratch2:🙈)
So basically, they acknowledge that she is the best, but that her score is disproportionately high for the technical errors of the technique she was taught.
 
yes kamila was amazing but why is for example her edgedchange in her combos not noted in her goe?
Quit believing everything you see on twitter. It's not noted in her GOE because that's not a GOE bullet point and the person who started that thread is making things up. The bullet point she cites doesn't mean what she thinks it means.
 
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What? They are making Valieva skate twice. No substitutions. That is so sad. I was counting on seeing Anna tonight and really thought she deserved a share of this gold medal and it is not like she wouldn’t have gotten the ten points for ROC. But, instead, I get Bolero. Yipppeee 🙄. I like how the Americans distribute their silver medal and the Japanese shared their bronze medal. That is a team effort. If Karen Chen placed 3rd and Nathan skated and won the free skate portion, I’d understand them not making any substitutions. But, USA shared the wealth and RUS is guaranteed a gold medal with substitutions. Why not allow others to get a medal. The more the merrier. I’m upset by this decision.
and the US actually had a lot more reasons for Nathan to do the FS. Perhaps his replacement was a mistake. But our federation wants a huge gap from the second place - it is absolutely incomprehensible why. More than 10 points will not be given anyway.
 
About the pre-rotations.

Very interesting explanation by swedish coach Cecilia Willberg who is commentating on Eurosport. She said there is nothing wrong with this technique. You get the rotation faster, BUT, it also makes the jump much harder to land as you need to get your right shoulder back, and checking the landing gets more difficult.

As an opposite example she had Karen Chen, who has very high jumps, but only rotates on her way down which makes her UR.
 
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Having Kamila skate the free was expected all along. She is the most reliable high scorer of the women. I am more surprised that they didn't substitute men. But on the other hand, Mark has been the most consistent man of the Russians.
 
Having Kamila skate the free was expected all along. She is the most reliable high scorer of the women. I am more surprised that they didn't substitute men. But on the other hand, Mark has been the most consistent man of the Russians.
replacing with Semenenko is, in my opinion, a bad idea. On Mozalev - well, maybe. They decided to be as conservative as possible, I guess. This choice could have been much more difficult if Kolyada had not fallen ill.
 
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