2021-22 Russian Women's Figure Skating | Page 370 | Golden Skate

2021-22 Russian Women's Figure Skating

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Well, I think it's pretty obvious that she's rotating almost a full rotation on the ice.
I would say there is a difference between 'rotating on the ice' and 'rotating touching the ice'. And very huge.
Like… say what you will but it's right there and very visible. Genuine question: can you not see how she's starting the rotation with her upper body, while the toe pick's still in the ice? Or do you think that's legitimate technique and you don't actually have to complete the main rotations in the air during a jump? I know I'm sounding passive aggressive here — sorry for that lol — but it's just really confusing.
I admit for me too. But. I'm not a figure skating coach and I cannot jump triple lutz (even double).
Is there some tech coaches/specialists (active right now, not some veteran dude who stop doing it for 25-30 years already) that make comment(s) about so called 'prerotation'? With specific examples, guides, etc? I find it very plausible that from their point of view 'prerotation' can be of a no big deal.

All complains about cheating from ppl who does not actually teach jumps cost basically nothing in such tech. questions.

Should Kamila get hate for this? Absolutely not, she's jumping the way she was taught and just doing her job. But it's important to point out the technical flaws and the flaws in the judging system — otherwise nothing will change.
True. But is it really a flaw or not - this shall not be in the hands of the public.
 
I love Kamila, but watched skating last night with a casual fan and even with all the gushing and hype from the commentator’s my friend was shocked people think she’s so amazing. She felt she lacked any connection or feeling to the music and didn’t understand the praise or ridiculously high score.

Also, could someone explain why Sasha dnd Anna weren’t given the team event? People are speculating they’re sacrificing Kamila hoping for Anna to win the individual event. I hope this isn’t true
Yeah, and I saw someone else post (maybe in another thread?) how their husband, who was a "casual fan" at best, thought that Kamila was clearly at another level than everybody else. And there's probably casual fans out there who wish Tonya Harding were competing here because that's when skating was really exciting.

Who are these "people" speculating? Is this another one of those "everybody says" = a couple of conspiracy theorists on social media or sports.ru (yet again).
 
escalating hatred on another site:

https://www.another site.com/r/FigureSkating/comments/slpyl7/maximum_prerotation/

it turns out that Kamila is actually doing double jumps, and even that is wrong. How do they not get tired?
Despite the actual tech 'issue' (which I have mixed feelings about) the level of hate on another site is enormous.
 
Hey guys, I’m new and wanted to introduce myself. I’m a fan who started watching after the 2018 Olympics and have followed you guys on this forum ever since ! I just decided to make an account:) As for the discussions here , I think Kamila is definitely the best skater among the mix. I do however, think the Eteri girls are a little overscored but skating is subjective and over scoring and underscoring will be a part of the sport. I think them choosing Kamila for both events is fair. It would have been ridiculous to have Anna do the free over Trusova when trusova basically stated the quad revolution. No hate to Anna but I think she should be happy she got on the team because her performance at nationals and euros wasn’t great and she was helped by the judges.
 
True. But is it really a flaw or not - this shall not be in the hands of the public.
Perhaps the judges should have made some clarification on this issue. Well, they can at least publish the guide you mentioned. Now, in addition to ordinary fans, Italian commentators have also joined the accusations, as I see it.
 
But for some reason they decide not to follow their own rule book…
Out of interest, I went to see what the rule book says and there's nothing in the most recent handbook, published 19 July 2021, on pre-rotation. All the emphasis on judging rotation happens on the landing.

The closest that the handbook comes to discussing pre-rotation is talking about "Cheated Take-offs" on p. 20.

A clear forward (backward for Axel type jump) take-off will be considered as a downgraded jump. The toe loop is the most commonly cheated on take-off jump. The TP may only watch the replay in regular speed to determine the cheat and downgrade on the take off (more often in combinations or sequences).

So the TP doesn't get the benefit of the slow-motion that TV viewers do.

The handbook is here: https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/.../24781-tphb-single-skating-2020-21-final/file
 
Hey guys, I’m new and wanted to introduce myself. I’m a fan who started watching after the 2018 Olympics and have followed you guys on this forum ever since ! I just decided to make an account:) As for the discussions here , I think Kamila is definitely the best skater among the mix. I do however, think the Eteri girls are a little overscored but skating is subjective and over scoring and underscoring will be a part of the sport. I think them choosing Kamila for both events is fair. It would have been ridiculous to have Anna do the free over Trusova when trusova basically stated the quad revolution. No hate to Anna but I think she should be happy she got on the team because her performance at nationals and euros wasn’t great and she was helped by the judges.
Anya landed her first quad before Sasha, also landed first quad in combination before Sasha. It was the leg fracture during the summer 2017 that caused "Sasha started the revolution" while Anna missed most of the season. They actually started it both as they were training it together from the start. Anya had to undergo many things to get where she is. Many others would finish skating with the injury she suffered. She, just like Sasha, started with 4S and 4T, but after the injury she was unable to continue with them, so she went for 4Lz and 4F, even harder jumps. Nevertheless that is not a question of who should skate in the team competition. Anna doesn't need a "benevolent mercy" from internet haters who became generously reconciled with the fact she's at the olympics, what she achieved she achieved via her abilities and will.
 
To how many students they (Italian commentators) have taught 3Lz? A rhetorical question, I know.
to be honest, I don’t know exactly who these commentators are, but in Russia such competitions were commented not so long ago, for example, by Tarasova.
 
I´m very surprised about this decision. I was hoping Anna would get a chance for the FP. But I would have understood, if they choose Sasha as well. They both would have won the FS, so I don´t really understand this decision. Especially because I don´t think that Kamila wanted to skate the SP and FP.
 
Anya landed her first quad before Sasha, also landed first quad in combination before Sasha. It was the leg fracture during the summer 2017 that caused "Sasha started the revolution" while Anna missed most of the season. They actually started it both as they were training it together from the start. Anya had to undergo many things to get where she is. Many others would finish skating with the injury she suffered. She, just like Sasha, started with 4S and 4T, but after the injury she was unable to continue with them, so she went for 4Lz and 4F, even harder jumps. Nevertheless that is not a question of who should skate in the team competition. Anna doesn't need a "benevolent mercy" from internet haters who became generously reconciled with the fact she's at the olympics, what she achieved she achieved via her abilities and will.
Trusova still was the first to do so internationally. I’m not hating on Anna. I don’t think there is skater like her who can keep coming back time and time again when others think she’s done. I just don’t think that the scores she got at nationals or Euros were equivalent to what we saw on the ice. That said, I think she can definetly get silver here but i don’t connect with her skating that’s all. Overall, I wish all of the girls luck and I hope they skate the best they can.
 
To how many students they (Italian commentators) have taught 3Lz? A rhetorical question, I know.
Perhaps not the best thing to ask if you want to invalidate their criticism when one of these commentators (Angelo Dolfini) is a coach specializing in jumps... Meaning he has likely indeed taught a large number of skaters Triple Lutzes and thus does have the knowledge and authority to criticise jumping technique - After all, it is literally his job.
 
Despite the actual tech 'issue' (which I have mixed feelings about) the level of hate on another site is enormous.
Why don't they ignore these resentful people who just want attention? It was the same from Yulia, Evgenia, Alina, Anna, Aliona, Sasha and now Kami. It's just envy of Russian supremacy.
If yesterday's Kami program was done by Alysa Liu, for example, they'd already be crowning her the next Simone Biles, even with poor technique.
Actually no girl has a perfect technique, but if any girl from another country can go out and do what Kami did, please do it if it's that easy.
 
All complains about cheating from ppl who does not actually teach jumps cost basically nothing in such tech. questions.
As mentioned, the Italian commentator is an actual coach who's been outspoken about technical issues for several years and not just with Russian skaters.

Out of interest, I went to see what the rule book says and there's nothing in the most recent handbook, published 19 July 2021, on pre-rotation. All the emphasis on judging rotation happens on the landing.

The closest that the handbook comes to discussing pre-rotation is talking about "Cheated Take-offs" on p. 20.

So the TP doesn't get the benefit of the slow-motion that TV viewers do.

The handbook is here: https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/.../24781-tphb-single-skating-2020-21-final/file

The GOE guidelines clearly state that if a jump has either a bad take-off or a bad landing, it should not receive more than max. +3 GOE. Kamila received multiple +4 and +5 for her 3F and 3Lz+3T.


It is certainly true that there's currently no clear rule as to how much pre-rotation really is allowed. They were supposed to introduce a rule this season but then scrapped it. So, apart from capping e.g. Kamila's GOE at +3 for her lutz and flip, she couldn't be punished according to the rules. Hence my point that she'd still be the best and still win, even if they did note her technical issues.

Anyway, coaches and (former) skaters alike clearly acknowledge that it's not good technique. For example, the commentator in this video is Angelo Dolfini. He's currently Shoma's and Deniss' jump coach and has openly talked about how Shoma Uno's technique is problematic and hard to change now that he's jumped like this all his life.

Here's a video with Dolfini's analysis I found with a ~5 minute search. I could look for more citations by knowledgeable people in the sport but the post is already long as it is and I think it gets the point across.

 
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I'm very disappointed that they decided to pass on our both quad queens...
I'm definitely more into Sashas skating than Anna's but I think Anna really deserved it.
She is a world champ and 3 time russia champ, and if anyone can withstand pressure and rise to the challenge, it is her.

I was going to stay up for Ladies but now I think I will just get to sleep and try to go to work at a normal time, we all know exactly what's going to happen.
 
Perhaps not the best thing to ask if you want to invalidate their criticism when one of these commentators (Angelo Dolfini) is a coach specializing in jumps... Meaning he has likely indeed taught a large number of skaters Triple Lutzes and thus does have the knowledge and authority to criticise jumping technique - After all, it is literally his job.
I had no clue who they were. If he actually tought ppl how to jump 3Lz then at least his opinion is interesting for me.
And what was his arguments?
 
The GOE guidelines clearly state that if a jump has either a bad take-off or a bad landing, it should not receive more than max. +3 GOE. Kamila received multiple +4 and +5 for her 3F and 3Lz+3T.


It is certainly true that there's currently no clear rule as to how much pre-rotation really is allowed. They were supposed to introduce a rule this season but then scrapped it. So, apart from capping e.g. Kamila's GOE at +3 for her lutz and flip, she couldn't be punished according to the rules. Hence my point that she'd still be the best and still win, even if they did note her technical issues.

I suppose, though, the point could be made that Kamila's take-off is not a bad one according to the current rules, so there would be no reason to cap the GOE. The judges do have to judge according to the rule book, and the rule book does not penalise a take-off that makes use of rotation of the ice, or the skater transferring their weight back along the blade of the picking foot as they rotate, which Dolfini also critiques in that really interesting and informative video. Thank you for linking to it!

Now, going very very off topic from Russian women - one of the things I do wonder about, though, is the use of slow motion. Dolfini [edit: or maybe it was Ambesi?] says that the technical panel has the tools to evaluate jumps with the precision that he shows in that video, but the rule book again explicitly states that their review of the take-off must be conducted at real time speed, not slowed down. So while the technology exists, it isn't allowed under the current rules.

I also have a somewhat different take, I admit, which is shaped by my equestrian background. No judges in any of the equestrian sports I am familiar with may make use of slow motion: they have to judge what is before them, in real time - and no replays allowed either. (Maybe polo and horseball are different, I don't know.) Slow motion footage, however, is obviously widely available, and is used by people wanting to look at technique, improve safety on obstacles, etc. One controversy that slow motion footage brought about was the fact that the canter pirouette, long considered to be a three beat motion (beat referring to footfalls), was shown to be a four beat movement instead. This led to acrimony in dressage, with people claiming that the four beat pirouettes were wrong and shouldn't be getting the marks they were. In the end, scientific research showed that a three beat canter pirouette is pretty much impossible, because of the mechanics of the movement.

So, to me, it strikes me that slow motion is useful at revealing the biomechanics of an action, but it doesn't have to be the be all and end all for judging the accuracy of it. Obviously, there are skaters who are capable of a more textbook take-off than others, re rotation, so it's not quite the same as the three vs four beat canter pirouette debate, but ... there's something else I have noticed and am curious about, not being a skater myself. Jumps with fewer rotations seem to be more likely to have delayed rotation - thinking about the big single axels people have shared on older videos of skaters here in the past - while jumps with more rotations seem to be more likely to have this on-ice rotation at the start, and the skaters certainly have to snap into tighter positions in the air. Which leads me to wonder if pre-rotation is not simply a natural part of getting the body to whip around the required number of times, between initiating take-off and landing the jump. No expert here, just an idle speculator.

(Again, I have an equestrian analogy, which may be accurate, or may be awful, but it is the development of the Caprilli seat in jumping; up until the early twentieth century, riders used to sit back over jumps, with their feet out in front of them, until Federico Caprilli found that a forward seat, with the rider coming up out of the saddle, made it easier for the horse to jump. Some horses and riders could still jump ridiculous heights with the pre-Caprilli seat, but the Caprilli seat was biomechanically easier for horse and rider, and made it easier for more horses to jump higher heights. So, again, that colours my perception of pre-rotation: is it bad, or is it just biomechanically more efficient? Not a skater, not a coach, I do not know the answer.)
 
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