2021 Internationaux de France: Men's Free Skate

[BlissfulSynergy]

Do you have any favorite skaters without quads?

My favorite skater had a rotated quad today, albeit two footed. Of course, his execution and performance skills are (typically) second to none, so he doesn't get inflated PCS. He correctly got the PCS he earned in the comp today, and earned a bronze medal.

I am happy that he was rightfully recognized for his skills. I hope your favorite skaters are too.

Jason was fairly rewarded overall. I thought less could have been taken off on his quad execution, because it was landed and fully rotated, which is great progress. Maybe Jason started thinking too much halfway through his program. Under pressure, I suppose it isn't easy to stay focused.

I have less issue with Jason medaling, than I have with Sato's high GOE and increased PCS, when he lacks top-notch performance ability.

Probably there were people as upset as the poster you responded to, who complained about Deniss and Jason being in podium position after the sp. A big reason why they were is because the quadsters blew a lot of their tech points away in their sp performances.

 

[Lutzedge]

Jason clean quad? It was close though.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Poor Denis fell to nerves.

What? Deniss skated better under pressure than Jason, in at least fully rotating his jumps, even if the landings weren't completely crisp. The judges have rewarded their faves with worse looking jump landings. None were URs, and there were no major errors, unlike a lot of the skaters they pushed Deniss behind. Deniss held up well under pressure. He did not fall to nerves.

ETA:
Deniss actually made his nerves work for him.

I have checked the protocols and reviewed the program. I see that the judges dinged Deniss on his second triple-axel. His landing blade did turn on the ice, but the judges went hunting to find something to downgrade, IMO. And so they found what they were looking for. Nine times out of ten, they will when they are over-scrutinizing. Also, in fairness to the judges, some ice did fly up on some of the landings. But still, this was a very strong program for Deniss, and he should feel proud of what he's accomplished.

In any case, the judges are generally inconsistent in their tech calling, especially on close calls. And Deniss still deserves better PCS than he's receiving. I suppose after Stephane reviews the protocols, he'll be able to discuss things with Deniss and help him come to terms with the fact that he skated well under pressure, and he's had an excellent GP season with two 4th place finishes. Plus, maybe Deniss will be convinced to not necessarily cut off all his hair, but to groom it up a bit more. I love Deniss' smile, and his bright outlook. He's always fun to watch!

And I still think Sato was generously scored, especially with GOE and a unaccounted for rise in PCS in the fp. The judges are over-conscious of rewarding quads, without understanding how to accurately reward complete programs and expressive performance qualities.

 

[Arigato]

I see you aren't a Jason fan.

I posted a link to Jason's excellent 2020 U.S. Nationals program elsewhere in the thread. His PCS topped Nathan. You'd think someone would enjoy watching it.

For those who missed it:

Jason Brown soars into second place with terrific Nationals short program | NBC Sports

2015 national champion Jason Brown returns to the ice where he claimed his crown five years ago and puts forth a terrific short program, leaving him only beh...

www.youtube.com

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I posted a link to Jason's excellent 2020 U.S. Nationals program elsewhere in the thread. His PCS topped Nathan. You'd think someone would enjoy watching it.

So you respect Jason, but you also cluelessly criticize his choreographed movement qualities in Sinnerman! Do you know anything about the music, the lyrics and the story behind it? If not, you should find out more about the music and the intention of the choreography before offensively questioning how this program was choreographed, and Jason's extraordinarily fluid and expressive abilities.

 

[Arigato]

So you respect Jason, but you also cluelessly criticize his choreographed movement qualities in Sinnerman! Do you know anything about the music, the lyrics and the story behind it. If not, you should find out more about the music and the intention of the choreography before offensively questioning how this program was choreographed, and Jason's extraordinarily fluid and expressive abilities.

Enjoy the video.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Enjoy the video.

I've watched this performance more than once, and I saw it in real time too. It is extraordinary. There's no need for you to over-compensate by trying to deflect from your earlier criticism by continually suggesting you are gifting Jason fans with a performance we can find on our own, or already have saved in our fave skating video archives.

 

[el henry]

Enjoy the video.

I have seen the video many times.

Have you seen Revelations? Do you know the story behind it? Do you know Rohene's connection to the Alvin Ailey Dance Theatre? Do you know which parts of Jason's choreo were rooted in the Horton Technique?

Could you explain how you think Jason's SP interacts with those, and your opinion of how it does?

 

[Arigato]

I've watched this performance more than once, and I saw it in real time too. It is extraordinary. There's no need for you to over-compensate by trying to deflect from your earlier criticism by continually suggesting you are gifting Jason fans with a performance we can find on our own, or already have saved in our fave skating video archives.

Don't post to me again.

 

[moonvine]

Excuse me? Please show me on Goldenskate where Samarin faced "hate"

I never wished Samarin to bomb. I think he seems to be a genuinely humble and fun person, I think I would like talking to him. Particularly in 2018, his skating was b-o-r-i-n-g to me. Talk about jumpa dee jump jump.

I genuinely felt Jason was the better skater in that comp and was happy that the better skater had placed higher. That is far from hate.

ETA: As for the GPF, I don't care. I would love to see Jason's programs again, but whether he makes it or not is not up to him now, and I never ever ever wish for a skater to bomb. I am very happy with two GP medals for Jason.

We will see Jason’s lovely programs at Nationals!

 

[anonymoose_au]

OK, here we go, Le Hommes.

Aww Kevin his little face I'm surprised to see him here! I very much hope he had a concussion check and is safe to be here (this is no joke, if you have a concussion and get a second on...it doesn't bear thinking about)

Nice pants Romain. Aw, he's retiring after this season. Well best of luck to him in his next step in life. Wonder what it'll be - model ? Real estate (lotta skaters seem to go into real estate...not sure what that's all about)

Gabriele's costume is so classy, love it.

Bit nervous for our Russian lads.

And yeah Mark the new system is supposed to do away with the first group disadvantage, so why doesn't it? Memo to ISU we totally notice it!

Aw cute kids.

OK I saw a spoiler that Kevin not only survived but did a very good FS! And he is! That quad toe infrint of the judges, what a power move!

He's back! No-handed cartwheel, slide and all!

The coaching situation is weird though...like should we judge Kevin for keeping Ms Fontana on given he must know what she was accused of? He seems like such a lovely guy, so it's just...weird. I don't know what to think. I wish he'd leave her, but it doesn't seem he will.

Still it was so nice to see him happy again though.

Good luck Gabe!

I swear this music was in some jeans ad and I find it distracting

Gosh, his jumps are so chaotic, but I kinda did his style? Outfit doesn't match the music though!

Romain - I'm Hella relieved he's like 29, because otherwise I might feel like a pervert Seriously, though, I need to find the remote control for my fan so I can turn it on.

Niiiice quad! And a second one!

I AM lookin' for trouble if you're providing it Romain

I love this!! (But I'm reminded of Yaro. Where are you, Yaro? We miss you)

Andrei - Love the commitment to the costume. Although was that a seagull cry at the start

Wow quality opening quads there! Mmm donut spin

Third quad! Get out!

Step sequence Level 4! The end was a bit of a LOL, but look at that TES! Over 100!

Coach-hopping shade from Mark

Aw TES dropped under 100, but still amazing score! Go Andrei!

Artur D - Too bad on the quad toe but the 4S was a beauty!

OMG what was that fall?! Damn, son!

Mark wonders again about the Russian men...well, it's occurred to me that the tendency of boys to suddenly jump up in height could have something to do with it. Even Plushy, who is not tall, grew like 11cm between seasons once. Girls also grow, but by that much, that quickly? Nah. That's gotta mess with your jump technique. All the men have messy years it's just the Russian ladies are so strong it makes the men look worse in comparison.

Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk

Adam - Day quad toe...Hell yeah.

This second half music is awesome!

Those Lutz landings are kinda amazing honestly.

That's some epic home skating. You go!

Seriously Benoit you made this AND Kaori's weird programs?! The mind boggles!

Group 2 - this is a good group! Keegan! Sota! Dima! Deniss! Jason! Yuma!

Ok, is it just me finding the audience screaming a little weird and distracting?

Indeed you should have heard them during the women!

Although I would definitely scream during the intros

Keegan - Blessed be the knees of Mr Messing. And look at dem spins. He's amazing!

NGL Mark since Keegan wasn't the one to give birth I'm not sure continuing his skating career is that outstanding? I guess he could be a super-involved Dad which would be nice

Dima - Swoooons at the costume and the waltzing

Dat transition into the flip.

I love seeing Dima killing it so hard! In part because I imagine the look on Yagudin's nasty face and grin something like this Dima has more grace in his little finger than that jerk has in his entire body. I'll never forgive or forget his cruelty to Dima (in person, right to his face!) during the Channel One Cup last season.

Shun - Here comes the music of the niiiiight...or is that the Quaaaads of the night Wow what a skate! How will Japan pick its men's team? If both Shun and Yuma slay at GPF and Nats amd Shoma keeps being awesome can the Japanese Fed really consider Yuzu over them if he hasn't been able to show them anything? The dramaaaa

Jason - Gasp a quad with no fall! But yeah bad program to scream at. I'm intrigued though as it sounds like the same group screaming, so at least they're equal opportunity.

That Ina Bauer is a moment though.

Stop! Deniss Time! I will love the Deniss sit spin forever He really needs to do something with that ponytail, the slippage is crazy. But awww his face Love seeing him happy!

Yuma - My brain is fried after watching all this skating, I may have over done it! But Yuma is a rising star! Looking forward...and am a bit scared of the Shoma/Yuma showdown at GPF!

Oh man, there's still pairs to go but I haven't left my house all day. Yes the weather is terrible, but I could well regret not getting any fresh air.

Hope this wall of text hasn't killed you

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Don't post to me again.

You initiated the posting to me. I did not seek you out. So, you may as well explain your ultimatum to yourself, gain some perspective about figure skating and social media, and try to enjoy the rest of the skating season.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Real estate (lotta skaters seem to go into real estate...not sure what that's all about)

LOL. Possibly following in Evan Lysacek's footsteps? Evan has done quite well for himself in the field of real estate, and in life, and in competitive athletics.

The coaching situation is weird though...like should we judge Kevin for keeping Ms Fontana on given he must know what she was accused of?

Inappropriate thread for even mentioning this. Fine to note that Silvia Fontana is with Kevin again, but it's best to keep 'judgmental' opinions to yourself in this thread about incidents related to SafeSport investigations. Or if you want, start another thread to discuss the details attendant to something that has nothing to do with Kevin's skating.

Fontana clearly has Kevin's trust as a coach, and they appear to share an emotional connection that has helped Kevin improve his overall skating and his competitive results. Let it be. None of us are involved in their coaching relationship, much less should it be described as 'weird.'

 

[Arigato]

Hope this wall of text hasn't killed you

Javi and I are waving our hands in the air at you. We're not worthy!

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Hope this wall of text hasn't killed you

I enjoyed most of your interesting analysis. I didn't know that about Dima and Yagudin. For sure, Dima is a talented skater, but he often seems distracted and not able to fully deliver a completely clean performance. Sometimes, I haven't enjoyed his music selection, but I've rooted for him previously. I loved that transition into his flip. Unusual and well-executed.

 

[yume]

I’m sorry if you don’t like Jason’s programs this year. I myself actually thought the original versions of both were stronger and that the changes they made weakened them.

But quite frankly, it’s one thing to criticize the choreography for being too theatrical or whatever you think is wrong with it (I’m speaking generally here, not to you specifically), and quite another to criticize the skater for performing theatrically (if that’s what the choreography calls for) rather than the choreographer.

Beyond that, I think a lot of the people who criticize Jason- and I’m not saying you are one of them - cross a line when they do it. He’s not your favorite skater? Fine, I have no problem with it. But I find it appalling how many people think it’s okay to make personally nasty remarks about someone they’ve never met - whether it’s Jason or anyone else. Just because you’re anonymous and can get away with it doesn’t mean you should. JMO.

I'm thinking about all the nastiness that is usually thrown on this forum about unpopular skaters, with no one complaining like that. When the skater is unpopular, nastiness, harsh comments are widely accepted, posts liked. Then nasty remarks about people we never met are normal. But when the skater is popular, even valid criticism become nastiness. Some react as if their pets were killed.

 

[Arigato]

Making comments about a skater's program has nothing to do with the skater, personally. If someone cannot separate the two, there's a problem. Yes, some could react as if their pet were killed merely because another mentioned something about the music someone is skating to. I cannot condone that type of behavior, but then I'm wired to allow people to have their own positions and expect others to allow me to have my own positions, even if it conflicts with theirs. Stalking, harassing, or personally attacking people simply because they don't share your opinion is not acceptable behavior. I don't stand by and watch people be attacked or bullied offline, I take action to stop it. Period. I also take action to stop it online, and have done so for the last 20 years. That's not going to change.

 

[karne]

The coaching situation is weird though...like should we judge Kevin for keeping Ms Fontana on given he must know what she was accused of? He seems like such a lovely guy, so it's just...weird. I don't know what to think. I wish he'd leave her, but it doesn't seem he will.

Yes, we absolutely should be judging Kevin for this, and judging hard.

 

[el henry]

I'm thinking about all the nastiness that is usually thrown on this forum about unpopular skaters, with no one complaining like that. When the skater is unpopular, nastiness, harsh comments are widely accepted, posts liked. Then nasty remarks about people we never met are normal. But when the skater is popular, even valid criticism become nastiness. Some react as if their pets were killed.

Again, I need to ask when and where? What skaters? What nasty remarks for these "unpopular" skaters were "accepted" as normal? And you are agreeing with @Tavi... : she specifically said *no* skater should be subjected to this.

Since this started with criticism of Jason's programs, I have seen no one react as though their pets were killed when responding to the criticism specifically of his skating or his programs. Can you tell me where? I have seen posters (like me) say that Jason's artistry is fairly scored and other skaters do not have Jason's skills. That is my opinion. Others may have other opinions, that is what we express.

But his smile, his personality, his demeanor, I've heard for eight years and it does get tiring.

 

[dalenofff]

I don't know what others think but I completely disagree with the final group scoring. Shun Sato is a nice skater with very good quad jumps, but the GOE was overdone for him. The judges get big eyes and start throwing out GOE like candy. Then a skater will start making errors, and the GOE when the same skater completes other elements successfully starts decreasing. The judges are easily swayed by factors having nothing to do with the actual skill of skaters, especially in PCS categories. Sato went about his business rapping off the elements (with a few mistakes in the mix, which detracted from the overall performance). He definitely did not deserve to be scored 4 points away from highly skilled aesthetic skaters like Deniss Vasiljevs and Kevin Aymoz. Sato only deserved in the mid-70s on PCS. And some of the GOE on Sato's quads was overly high. Apparently, this is just a quad race, with skaters' overall reputations also factoring in.

ISU judges do NOT know how to judge performance value. They simply do not, period. Deniss and Jason deserved their positions in the sp. And then Kevin Aymoz came back from whatever angst and injury he's experiencing to set a high bar in the fp, which every guy tried their best to live up to. I didn't have too many issues with the scoring until all the gift GOE and PCS scores given to Sato.

Deniss Vasiljevs held up under the high-bar competitive pressure. Jason did not. I love Jason, but Jason knows he singled and doubled two planned triples. He should NOT get a medal for that. Deniss deserved to be on the podium. The judges were apparently weighing Deniss against his lesser execution of his quad in the fp, and on his past results and reputation, which has not been high re tech value. But Deniss is very much improved on his tech and on his consistency this season, and he should be rewarded for his noticeable improvements. Obviously, the judges only wanted to reward Deniss with 4th place, despite his superior aesthetic talent, and the fact that he completed two consistent performances.

Had Jason simply skated the way he could, without those failed rotations on jumps that are within in his wheelhouse, Jason would have been in position to win the silver medal. Clearly, the way Deniss was scored, without giving him the credit he deserves on composition and interpretation, coupled with the over-scores for Shun Sato on GOE and PCS, Deniss likely still would have been put in fourth place, regardless of how Jason skated. The judges were apparently ruling that quads are boss, and we want to give Jason a break because we rate him higher than Deniss as a polished skater overall. And it was based on rep factors, since Deniss is not known for landing on major podiums.

The judges took some points off of Deniss' initial tech score for some of his landings, which weren't picture perfect, but still his jumps were fully landed, with no URs* (good technique on entry and better landed than what we often see from some over-rated quad jumpers -- I'm not talking about Sato here because he's got excellent technique, but he has a way to go aesthetically; I am more referencing a quadster with questionable technique, such as Daniel Grassl).

Thanks to all the guys for raising the bar at IDF in the fp (despite errors by some), especially thanks to Kevin Aymoz and to Deniss Vasiljevs. Plus, I love Adam Siao Him Fa's new programs. I hope he rocks them out at the Olympics. Jason Brown should wrap this experience up and remember it, because he wants to make the Olympics again, and should he get there, the pressure will be huge. I know he can stay within himself and fully embrace what he can do and perform extraordinarily well, because he has before on numerous occasions. This was not one of them due to those two jump bail-outs.

Deniss should hold his head high, and continue to perform well. I think training with Shoma Uno has been a wonderful benefit for Deniss. The judges need to be taught how to score superb performance value, which Deniss, Jason, and Kevin have (Sato is not in that same ballpark). The judges need to remove their quad blinders.

ETA:
I checked the protocols and reviewed the program. The judges downgraded Deniss' second 3-axel because his blade turned on the ice. It wasn't apparent in real time because it happened quickly and was not that visible in terms of viewing angles. This tells me that the judges went error-hunting on purpose because Deniss does not have the same quad arsenal as others. He also did not fall on his opening quad, so he should have had less points taken off, not half of the points taken off.

wow, someone actually complain about PCS but nothing about Yuma 90+... where are those that complain about Nathan, Vincent, getting high PCS on their second years in the Senior etc.. they remain silence. ,