2021 Internationaux de France: Pairs Free Skate

[el henry]

I may regret this but, I am off to watch the last dance groups at Cup of Warsaw

Say hi to the Olympic gold medalists Davis/Smolkin for me.

 

[rollerblade]

Where's the winner trophy? Where's the crate of chicken? Why only 1 bouquet of flowers per team?

 

[Seven Sisters]

Say hi to the Olympic gold medalists Davis/Smolkin for me.

Apparently Pate and Bye (who I cannot resist thinking of as “Bye Bye Bye”, due to their use of the NSync) have already scored 100 points for their FD

 

[twirlingaround]

Maybe an unpopular opinion, but I would have had A/N behind K/F in both PCS (which they did) and GOE (which I think they did not, but I'll have to look at the protocols).

I agree with you.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Congrats to B/K... they're still kinda meh for me compared to the other top Russian pairs M/G and T/M, but they have some very strong elements and are in the mix for a GPF medal. A/N also did well, although they're not quite there program-wise, the elements are there.

Congrats to S-K/F! I think they're a bit underrated and their program save for the fall was very well done. US Nats will be quite a battle.

J/R were MUCH improved artistically but damn, so bummed about the silly errors with the spin and lift giving up about 13-15 points and silver. But also so glad to see Vanessa smiling about it and them taking it in stride. It is a BIG breakthrough for them to nail both SBS passes and essentially both throws (flip was 2-foot but not bad). These are two GPs where they could have been on the podium so that should be confidence building for a new team, and they're getting better each time out. The PCS was a bit high given the errors, but much better effort than Skate Canada in both the SP and FS. They should easily (and deservedly) make the Olympic team and maybe even win Nationals if they keep this up.

 

[skylark]

Martin Fourcade

oh, the former French biathlete. See? I know how to Google.

 

[Mista Ekko]

Can anyone specify where was the mistake that abolished J\Rs spin?

 

[Skatingcat]

I still think it's too early to be skating to Fix You.

I'm watching Knierim/Frazier skate and I can't really pay attention because I keep thinking is about the Shibs Sibs.

 

[sworddance21]

I agree with you.

Same

 

[gold12345]

Maybe an unpopular opinion, but I would have had A/N behind K/F in both PCS (which they did) and GOE (which I think they did not, but I'll have to look at the protocols).

You're completely right. And anyone who understands pairs judging should agree with you regarding the GOE.

I still think it's too early to be skating to Fix You.

I'm watching Knierim/Frazier skate and I can't really pay attention because I keep thinking is about the Shibs Sibs.

It's been 6 seasons and it was a different discipline. I don't tend to think of ice dance programs when I watch pairs, or vise versa, the elements are just so different. But I realize some people do. How many people still mention Torvill and Dean from 1984 when someone skates to Bolero. Fix You will always remind some people of the Shibs, but there's never been a piece of music that's only been claimed by one skater.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I don't say congrats to B/K for receiving a season's best score with such a messy skate. They were overscored in the sp, just because they are bringing in rep from past wins. It was Moskvina who transformed B/K in their sophomore season. But clearly, B/K have weaknesses that Moskvina was able to camouflage. Even Moskvina knows that Mishina/Galliamov have more talent, I'm sure that's why she agreed to take M/G under her wing. Plus, Boikova would likely not have been so visibly rude to Moskvina at 2021 Worlds if Boikova wasn't so upset about Moskvina helping to guide M/G to better results, the same way she helped B/K.

Honestly, the young Russian team who competed at IDF have more potential than B/K at this point, IMO. In addition, the attitudes of both Boikova & Koslovskii have been OTT at times in thinking they are so much better than everyone else. They're not.

James/Radford and Knierim/Frazier have better overall qualities and more maturity than both Russian teams. But, skating while Russian, especially a Russian pairs team, means the judges lose their minds handing out GOE and PCS. Plus, the Russians are spotted mistakes that no other pairs can get away with, especially not U.S. pairs teams, and newly paired teams.

Granted that James/Radford should not have missed that lift, or they might have been able to overtake at least the young Russian team, Artemeva/Nazarychev. Actually, if both J/R and Knierim/Frazier had skated both programs cleanly, the outcome might have been quite different. In the sp, K/F had no business having problems on their money throw jump. I think Brandon overthrew Alexa, and she lost control on the landing. Or both skaters share responsibility. They could have edged the young Russian team, Artemeva/Nazarychev, in the sp. To their credit, K/F looked strong and confident coming out in the fp. And, they seemed to skate with a freedom and a lightness that was nice to see. But then, Brandon clearly got tense or nervous on the opening jumping pass. So, two errors (one in the sp and one in the fp), keep K/F from possibly being in a position to compete for gold at IDF, with B/K actually not skating their best, despite overdone scores from the judges. K/F, in many respects, are more physically appealing, talented, and more experienced than Boikova/Koslovskii. The difference is, K/F have to believe in themselves and believe they are as good and better in some cases than top teams who receive mistake handicaps, and over-scores.

Vanessa seemed positive, happy and confident to be back in France. She is so classy and lovely, with such a beautiful smile and a positive attitude. I think J/R are very well-matched, and I'd love to see them compete another season, but I think they will likely move on to show skating like they said. It just isn't enough time that they've given themselves to adjust to a new partner in an Olympic season. But they are making steady progress. The problem they had with the lift is because of the transitional hand-holds, and being fairly new to each other on competitive ice. Also, I don't think lifts were Duhamel/Radford's greatest strength, whereas innovative and strong lifts were a signature of James/Cipres. As I mentioned in other threads, jumps tend to be difficult for every skater when they are nervous, or overthinking, or tense. It's not just Vanessa, as some posters have over-emphasized. Even when Vanessa skated with Cipres, she was generally a strong jumper. I think it has been overkill to suggest she has always had problems with jumps when nervous. She didn't any more-so than every athlete. James/Cipres were one of the most consistent teams on their sbs jumps.

 

[ice_tulip]

Why was that twist a level 2? (Seriously asking - I don't know the criteria)

I also was wondering the same thing. James/Radford got level 3 in the free and level 4 in the SP whereas Knierem/Frazier got Level 2 in both programs. Odd. I don't think J/R's twist is any more difficult but I'm no expert.

 

[Yeslekyelnats]

OI always wonder this too. Alexa usually gets horizontal and is smoothly caught when she is thrown in the air which to me is much more impressive than some of the ones where the woman almost stays vertical and almost lands on their own with the man’s assistant but the scoring comes out the same. I must not understand what they are supposed to look like because the first one looks much more impressive to me?

I also was wondering the same thing. James/Radford got level 3 in the free and level 4 in the SP whereas Knierem/Frazier got Level 2 in both programs. Odd. I don't think J/R's twist is any more difficult but I'm no expert.

 

[nguyhm]

OI always wonder this too. Alexa usually gets horizontal and is smoothly caught when she is thrown in the air which to me is much more impressive than some of the ones where the woman almost stays vertical and almost lands on their own with the man’s assistant but the scoring comes out the same. I must not understand what they are supposed to look like because the first one looks much more impressive to me?

I've been wondering about this too.

 

[rollerblade]

These are the bullets listed for Twist Lifts:

• Woman’s split position (each leg at least 45° from the body axis and Woman’s legs are straight or almost straight)
• Catching the Woman at the side of the waist without her hand(s)/arm(s)/any part of upper body touching the Man
• Woman’s position in the air with arm(s) above the head (minimum one full revolution)
• Difficult take-off: turns, steps, movements, small lifts immediately preceding the take-off, executed with continuous flow
• Man’s arms sideways, being straight or almost straight, reaching at least shoulder level after release of the Woman

I guess she missed the splits requirement. Dunno how they even measure 45°.... what if it was 44.5°? Are they busting out the protractor?
I've also heard commentators talking about Brandon's arms (in SkAM), so credit will depend on strictness of panel.

 

[Yeslekyelnats]

These are the bullets listed for Twist Lifts:

• Woman’s split position (each leg at least 45° from the body axis and Woman’s legs are straight or almost straight)
• Catching the Woman at the side of the waist without her hand(s)/arm(s)/any part of upper body touching the Man
• Woman’s position in the air with arm(s) above the head (minimum one full revolution)
• Difficult take-off: turns, steps, movements, small lifts immediately preceding the take-off, executed with continuous flow
• Man’s arms sideways, being straight or almost straight, reaching at least shoulder level after release of the Woman

I guess she missed the splits requirement. Dunno how they even measure 45°.... what if it was 44.5°? Are they busting out the protractor?
I've also heard commentators talking about Brandon's arms (in SkAM), so credit will depend on strictness of panel.

Interesting- I’m shocked there isn’t anything for the angle of them woman’s body and height. Or is that GOE?

 

[readernick]

Interesting- I’m shocked there isn’t anything for the angle of them woman’s body and height. Or is that GOE?

That's GOE. I agree that they were comparatively underscored in GOE on that element and several others. Most Russian teams get great GOE on the twist and deserve it but A/N's twist frankly isn't very good. Neither was J/R's. I feel like K/F are being underscored this season.

 

[sworddance21]

That's GOE. I agree that they were comparatively underscored in GOE on that element and several others. Most Russian teams get great GOE on the twist and deserve it but A/N's twist frankly isn't very good. Neither was J/R's. I feel like K/F are being underscored this season.

I went back to Peacock to look at their twist and it seems really, really good to me. Level 2 makes no sense. I mean - it isn't Alexa and Chris's twist yet, but theirs was spectacular.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

^^ Thanks for pointing out the disparities in scoring on twists in this pairs event (specifically between J/R and K/F). For sure, U.S. teams are constantly under-rated despite being deep and competitive with all the top teams, more than they've been in a long while. Even Canadian teams have been consistently rated higher than U.S. teams for so long that the mindset continues even when the U.S. now has greater depth in senior pairs than Canada currently has.

I'm not sure what it's going to take for U.S. pairs teams to receive the respect and scoring they deserve. As I said, pressure is put on them to skate completely perfect every time out to be given relatively high scores, instead of the highest scores on a level with some over-rated teams. , Russian teams grab high scores, sometimes unfairly, and then get spotted numerous mistakes and still place ahead of teams with equal or greater talent and experience.

 

[gold12345]

The irony in Knierim/Frazier not getting the split level on the twist is that Alexa has some of the prettiest split technique, where she keeps her legs on the split straight as she enters her rotating position on the twist, whereas many pair girls will bend their right leg. I think it was Maxim Trankov who once said the twist level requirements felt a little too random, and I tend to agree. The angle of Alexa's split in the LP looked very similar to Vanessa James's, who got credit for the split. Hard to be 100% sure without a protractor or another camera angle though.

But alas, many great twists throughout history have been been called Level 3 because of the pesky split feature. I basically just consider a twist maxed out at Level 3 or 4, especially since the point difference is so small. People like Wenjing Sui and Aljona Savchenko would do the twist with their arm over their head (which frankly is a strange feature that makes a twist look more odd than more difficult) because it's the only other way to get to Level 4 if you're not getting credit for the split (you need to do 4 of the 5 bullets to get Level 4). The top Chinese pairs do very little splitting of their legs.

But for Knierim/Frazier to get Level 2 in the FS, that was weird and doesn't happen unless they mess up. And they did a great twist, much better than Skate America but got similar GOE. I'm guessing they missed the "dropping of the man's arms" feature for the first time. Brandon has probably dropped his arms down by his side the same way his entire career, and Denney/Frazier got credit for this level all of the time. I'm not sure why he got docked for it here. He did change his twist technique quite a bit to match Alexa, so maybe it changed something with his arms, I have no idea.

• Man’s arms sideways, being straight or almost straight, reaching at least shoulder level after release of the Woman

This is the bullet point. His arms go all the way down by his side. And they only have to be "almost straight", which could mean anything. And the natural way to drop your arms is sideways- he's not dropping them down in front of his face. But they'll have to figure it out and work on it.

This unexpected level of strictness is strange when another pair then does a twist with no height that isn't getting over the man's head much, if at all, and has no real explosiveness or split and scores up to +3 in the FS and +4 in the SP. We're going to need a +8 system instead of a +5 system to differentiate between weak/ok and good/great twists. And this wasn't a Russia vs US thing, because Boikova/Kozlovskii scored as low as +2 on the twist too (I think that's close to correct because it's not that high, but I realize the clout they have), so twist scores were quite tame among the top 3 except for the team with the weakest twist.

I always wonder this too. Alexa usually gets horizontal and is smoothly caught when she is thrown in the air which to me is much more impressive than some of the ones where the woman almost stays vertical and almost lands on their own with the man’s assistant but the scoring comes out the same. I must not understand what they are supposed to look like because the first one looks much more impressive to me?

Agreed, it's definitely more impressive when the twist is more lateral and the girl's entire body is well above the man's head. It's easier to throw the twist more vertically, and it's not as good. And you want the girl to be caught in the air and set down gently on the ice without brushing the man's shoulder/head/etc, instead of the girl landing more heavily on the ice or practically on her own. Some pairs use the man's body to help set the twist down in such a subtle way that they get the level for the clean catch even when they shouldn't. But there's more to a twist than the catch. There aren't that many GOE, so yes, some twists will get the same score-- but a subpar twist and a great one can't both get +3.

^^ Thanks for pointing out the disparities in scoring on twists in this pairs event (specifically between J/R and K/F). For sure, U.S. teams are constantly under-rated despite being deep and competitive with all the top teams, more than they've been in a long while.

I'm not sure what it's going to take for U.S. pairs teams to receive the respect and scoring they deserve. As I said, pressure is put on them to skate completely perfect every time out to be given relatively high scores, instead of the highest scores on a level with some over-rated teams.

The US pairs are all so different and I don't think there's some conspiracy against US pairs. I think of them individually rather than lumping them together. I usually agree with the rankings at least. It's easier for some teams to overcome an error based on their scoring potential elsewhere. Tarasova/Morozov can be off on a jump, but can then kinda make up for it with a huge throw, or great PCS. It can help to have a better resume yes. Like US pairs, all the Russian pairs are different. Artemeva/Nazarychev's twist doesn't look anything like Mishina/Gallimov's. They can't all score the same thing.