2021 Skate Canada: Men's Free Skate | Page 38 | Golden Skate

2021 Skate Canada: Men's Free Skate

Flying Feijoa

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 22, 2019
Country
New-Zealand
Meh. One good(ish) skate by Shoma and one great skate by Vincent does not a rivalry make.

Both have a half a decade of embarrassment working against them with the only constant in their skating being inconsistency.
Not a 1-to-1 narrative like Nathan vs Yuzuru, rather a more multipolar situation. Think Nathan vs Dark Horse No. 1, 2, 3...
 

lariko

Medalist
Joined
Jan 31, 2019
Country
Canada
Of course it does. With two failed jumps he earned silver, because the rest failed to do their work. How often do you see that?
Semenenko did his job. The placement could have been the other way around, and the result would have been defensible.
 

el henry

Fangirl of men’s spirals and split jumps
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Country
United-States
Luck has a TON to do with it.

In ANY field that wasn't a giant mess Jason wouldn't have gotten a wiff of a medal with that skate.

Maybe, but the field was a giant mess. Competitions are won and lost on the ice that day, not hypothetical ice.

And Jason has gotten medals in strong fields that were not nearly as splatty as this one. ;)

Jason's athletic gifts may not be to everyone's taste, but it doesn't mean they're not athletic or they're not gifts. It will be a sad day for skating when revolutions in the air are the only definition of athletic (and it will be untrue as well :) )
 

readernick

Medalist
Joined
Dec 5, 2015
Country
Taiwan
I meant vs Semenenko. This specific choice was very deliberate, because it could have gone either way. It was not a random play of numbers. Brown literally only jumped triples and doubles.
But, honestly the judges couldn't follow the IJS scoring and give Semenenko higher scores. Every jump is landed in an ugly way ( he breaks in the waist and lands forward on even "easy" triples) and there is essentially no program. Correct scoring following the system and according to the bullet points doesn't allow that to lead....

And, you are right that the reason the scoring system doesn't allow higher scoring for such a program is because no one wants to watch it. Jason is,even with mistakes, a thousand times more watchable then Semenenko. So, the system was designed to reward skating people want to see. But, I don't see it as a conscious decision on the part of the judges. It is how the judging system was designed. The judges aren't following rules when they give Sasha the kind of scores she gets, they are when they give Jason Brown this score.

Whatever you think of Jason, he hit the bullet points for good GOE on all but the first two jumping passes and his final spin. He also hits the bullet points for high PCS. Semenenko didn't. That being said, the judges would ignore his rather bad basic skating if he just landed his jumps better.
 

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Country
Australia
Also, dear peed off Russian fans, short program leads are a thing. If Semenenko wanted to win over Jason...maybe he should have skated better in the short program yesterday!

Look, I like Semenenko, but he's still got a lot of work to do. And you know what? That's okay! He's young, it's early in his career, let him develop. Jason is incredibly experienced and refined, to a level that many more experienced skaters would struggle to match.

Also, I get the impression that a lot of people in this thread would absolutely freakin' HATE Steve Bradbury...
 

el henry

Fangirl of men’s spirals and split jumps
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Country
United-States
How often do you watch men's skating? Because, Jason has a lot of medals 😂😂😂😂. So evidence would suggest, it happens pretty often.

Well, to be fair, Jason doesn't always fall on the 3A. ;)I'm not sure about the other "failed" jump, maybe the UR quad?

But yes, Jason gets plenty of medals with his UR quad or falling quad attempts even when the ice isn't cursed. Because he maxes out his points elsewhere.

You know, like one does in sport.

(I know you know this @readernick, jes sayin'....)
 

lariko

Medalist
Joined
Jan 31, 2019
Country
Canada
Whatever you think of Jason, he hit the bullet points for good GOE on all but the first two jumping passes and his final spin. He also hits the bullet points for high PCS.
He only landed doubles and triples. His PCSs are to me inflated, because I don’t see outstanding qualities. For me the two performances are on the balance the same. One glides better, the second lands bigger jumps. To me, Semenenko with silver would have been more fair. To be honest, neither is anywhere near my favourite (my favs in this event were Chen, Hiwatashi and Ignatov). I like either athletic high energy skaters or deeper quieter ones. But I understand prestige scoring, so I expected Brown to win silver here.
 

readernick

Medalist
Joined
Dec 5, 2015
Country
Taiwan
He only landed doubles and triples. His PCSs are to me inflated, because I don’t see outstanding qualities. For me the two performances are on the balance the same. One glides better, the second lands bigger jumps. To me, Semenenko with silver would have been more fair. To be honest, neither is anywhere near my favourite. I like either athletic high energy skaters or deeper quieter ones. But I understand prestige scoring, so I expected Brown to win silver here.
But, you must see that he hits the bullet points even if you don't personally appreciate it. You don't have to like Jason. We all have preferences and that's fine. You like quads. I like quads if they are well done. (Semenenko's clearly aren't) But, judging shouldn't be based on individual preference only. If you go back and watch the programs element per element and then fairly assess the elements and PCS as outlined in the IJS, I don't see how Jason's win is controversial or surprising at all...
 

Matthew

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 24, 2020
Maybe, but the field was a giant mess. Competitions are won and lost on the ice that day, not hypothetical ice.

And Jason has gotten medals in strong fields that were not nearly as splatty as this one. ;)

Jason's athletic gifts may not be to everyone's taste, but it doesn't mean they're not athletic or they're not gifts. It will be a sad day for skating when revolutions in the air are the only definition of athletic (and it will be untrue as well :) )
Jason mostly uses his right arm to act with his left arm just hanging down. Thus, he is using only half the possibilities for expression falling back behind skaters like Shoma Uno, in spite of the high PCS he's received today.
 

lariko

Medalist
Joined
Jan 31, 2019
Country
Canada
But, you must see that he hits the bullet points even if you don't personally appreciate it. You don't have to like Jason. We all have preferences and that's fine. You like quads. I like quads if they are well done. (Semenenko's clearly aren't) But, judging shouldn't be based on individual preference only. If you go back and watch the programs element per element and then fairly assess the elements and PCS as outlined in the IJS, I don't see how Jason's win is controversial or surprising at all...
I did this exercise before, and I don’t see how Brown’s PCSs are justified. And this particular program wasn’t even as smoothly flowing as his other skates. Sure, Semeneko’s quads are jumped without beauty of execution, but it’s not like Brown skates like Hanyu or Uno either, who are awe inspiring on ice.
 

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Country
Australia
Oh wow, Jason getting silver has really upset people, I guess he's really made it now, huh? :laugh:

All these quad programs that get wildly and stupidly overscored every single comp, and you're all losing your minds because the judges kept decent marks for quality.
 

el henry

Fangirl of men’s spirals and split jumps
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Country
United-States
Jason mostly uses his right arm to act with his left arm just hanging down. Thus, he is using only half the possibilities for expression falling back behind skaters like Shoma Uno, in spite of the high PCS he's received today.

I am sorry, are you talking about physical placement of his arms in the Schindler's List program? I really am not understanding.
 

lariko

Medalist
Joined
Jan 31, 2019
Country
Canada
Oh wow, Jason getting silver has really upset people, I guess he's really made it now, huh? :laugh:

All these quad programs that get wildly and stupidly overscored every single comp, and you're all losing your minds because the judges kept decent marks for quality.
Nobody is upset? I knew it was going to happen and that he would be in the final. It would be Chen, Zhou, Brown, Hanyu, Uno and Kagiyama. If they didn’t want Brown in the final, they would have let Semenenko take silver, that’s all. Semenenko still solidified his hold on the potential Olympic spot.
 
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el henry

Fangirl of men’s spirals and split jumps
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Country
United-States
Nobody is upset? I knew it was going to happen and that he would be in the final. It would be Chen, Zhou, Brown, Hanyu, Uno and Kagiyama. If they didn’t want Brown in the final, they would have let Semenenko take silver.

I like all those skaters. From your lips to God's ears!:pray:
 

Matthew

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 24, 2020
I am sorry, are you talking about physical placement of his arms in the Schindler's List program? I really am not understanding.
I'm talking about him using his arms for acting during his program, yes. Arms are an important vehicle for expression, aren't they? Pottering arms make an impression of laxness detracting spectators' attention.
 

readernick

Medalist
Joined
Dec 5, 2015
Country
Taiwan
I did this exercise before, and I don’t see how Brown’s PCSs are justified. And this particular program wasn’t even as smoothly flowing as his other skates. Sure, Semeneko’s quads are jumped without beauty of execution, but it’s not like Brown skates like Hanyu or Uno either, who are awe inspiring on ice.
I mean Uno is my personal favorite and I like Hanyu, too. But, while both have SS equal to or better than Jason. I don't see how they are ( taking out personal preference) better than Jason artistically in other categories. Uno has wonderful posture and upper body control like Jason. He is also capable of being emotional like Jason. But, he has very very few transitions. Again, he is my favorite skater and I love his skating but realistically he doesn't do the type of complex turns or transitions that Jason does ( just see how many crossovers are in his program) and he has messy feet so the turns he does do can be really bad at times.

Hanyu does have great transitions. However, he doesn't have the upper body control that Jason or Shoma have... His posture isn't great. Also, his performance can be hit or miss. When his jumps are on, I would throw all the PCS at him, but when he makes mistakes he totally stops trying.

They both have quads which Jason doesn't have but quads aren't a PCS bullet. I guess we won't agree on this because I really don't understand how you don't see that Jason is hitting every requirement for high PCS. You don't have to like him, but the IJS rewards what he does.
 
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