2021 U.S. Nationals: Senior Pairs - Short Program | Page 11 | Golden Skate

2021 U.S. Nationals: Senior Pairs - Short Program

BlissfulSynergy said:
Whoa! It looks to me like the judges were intent on being overly harsh to Olivia & Mervin. They landed the throw, though it was a slight lean. I don't see that being -.53 Why such a high deduction. It was barely a problem on the landing. And they kept picking away on practically every element.

And then my connection shut off for some reason, and I missed everything after Serafini/Tran. I don't understand why I'm having these problems. It's related to the stream or maybe the Edge browser. But it sucks. Another issue, is that you should be able to move backward during a livestream, but it doesn't allow that. And then they don't post the archived streams immediately. How long did it take them to put up the archived practice cams? Does anyone know?
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Don’t shoot the messenger but they do NOT to my knowledge put up the archived practice streams. I think we need to figure out to whom to politely complain and do so.
 
Placements were correct , IMO. But I think the judges were a bit harsh with Serafini and Tran. Their performance was choppy but there were some really nice elements. I am hoping they can be in the top 5 after the Long.
 
moonvine said:
Don’t shoot the messenger but they do NOT to my knowledge put up the archived practice streams. I think we need to figure out to whom to politely complain and do so.
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I’m seeing on the schedule, though, that they are showing the practice cams throughout the competition, which is nice.
 
Roo87 said:
Canada very much appreciates her, it's the USA that has to release her.
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Please to both comments regarding Deanna.

Deanna is quite happy with Maxime. The poster who mentioned Deanna with Merv. That's not going to happen. We can't just suggest musical chairs like that anyway. Deanna and Maxime have something together. That doesn't mean Deanna and Merv would have something. It's too late for anything like that.* But yes, Canada is going to be stingy or let's say 'conservative' with their marks for Deanna & Maxime. That's quite obvious. Right now, they can't compete internationally. That should change, but it will be awhile. Meanwhile, judging by the Challenge scoring, as TSL said and I agree, SC is not going to give Deanna anything. She will have to wrest it from them by skating perfectly clean and proving herself, and ultimately 'knocking their socks off,' if that's what it's going to take.

To me it's obvious that the judges are managing Deanna/Maxime's scores. Deanna & Maxime deserve better scores on PCS. But for some reason, Ben and Brooke got higher PCS (at least apparently in the fp). B&B were great in the fp performance, but they have a way to go in terms of pair connection and aesthetics. They are very attractive and great technically. But they still need seasoning.

Maxime and Deanna should be given their due. Sure they had the 2 falls in the fp, but they still deserved good PCS values. I actually expected them to fall behind B&B, but B&B made mistakes in the sp. Being further ahead in the sp, is what kept Maxime & Deanna in third place. I still say they should have been scored closer to 64+ in the sp on the basis of more difficulty than last year, a clean program and expressive maturity. All-in-all, it was a good competition, but again SC will not fully embrace a non-Canadian skater right off the bat. Even Keegan had to wait awhile for full embrace. Due to a variety of circumstances, he's never quite yet won a Canadian championship despite being close.

* To give a further example of pairs drama and desperation and musical chairs complexities:
Back in the day, Amanda Evora tried out with Rockne Brubaker. It was his last-ditch effort after Mary Beth stopped skating (due to an eating disorder). Rockne and Amanda clicked according to what I've heard, but she'd already halfway retired which had upset her former partner Mark Ladwig who was still trying to make it with Lindsay Davis until she ironically dropped him to hook up with Rockne when Amanda decided not to move forward partly because of location logistics (and likely not to further upset Mark that she would dare return to skate with awesome Rockne). Lindsay was way better suited to Mark and should have stuck with him. Rockne was too tempting because he was a great pairs guy. Still, Lindsay and Rockne never made it. They were a physical match, but no chemistry whatsoever! Dead in the water.
 
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moonvine said:
Don’t shoot the messenger but they do NOT to my knowledge put up the archived practice streams. I think we need to figure out to whom to politely complain and do so.
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If we are talking about Peacock Premium, I noticed that there were archived practice streams yesterday that are gone today. But there is a practice stream for today https://www.peacocktv.com/watch/pla...-2010025/09aabec0-a256-3ab3-b29e-87df92487071. I found it by scrolling all the way down to the Figure Skating section of the Sports menu. Agree that I wish they would keep the practice archives available for longer.
 
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Roo87 said:
This had more to do with always competing with Patrick Chan and Kevin Reynolds, and him being inconsistent after they retired.
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Right, I said a variety of circumstances. Still, it took Keegan awhile before they would give him good marks over home-grown Canadian guys in the beginning. When the opportunity was there that they might have rewarded Keegan, he made mistakes here and there. And there was resurgent Nam too.

It was definitely a victory for Keegan to win the second spot for the 2018 Olympics team behind Patrick. That was a huge and hard fought win, as well as finally a full embrace by Canadians.

Part of the acceptance of Keegan had to do with his affable, charming nature, his heart of gold, and his great sportsmanship (bro' bond with Nam, et al).

In addition, Alaska is closer to Canada than it is to mainland U.S. And, I believe Keegan's mother was born in Canada, if I'm not mistaken.
 
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Roo87 said:
Canada very much appreciates her, it's the USA that has to release her.
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I got that impresion from reading something on another page suggesting their marks were held down to help other Canadian teams. My bad sińce i didnt watch the event.
 
labgoat said:
I got that impresion from reading something on another page suggesting their marks were held down to help other Canadian teams. My bad sińce i didnt watch the event.
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I don't say Deanna/Maxime's marks were overly 'held down.' Just that they were managed. You have to understand that it's about politics and subjectivity and conflicts of interest, and favoritism. That's what figure skating is, especially when not a lot separates different performances and skill levels. There are a lot of factors involved. That goes for both domestic and international judging, across the board in this sport. It's not a mystery. We always see this dynamic at play.

Also, I don't think the 'managing' of scores is necessarily 'to help' other skaters. Each skater has to help themselves. Sometimes judges leave room for later flights, but that dynamic was not applicable here since Deanna & Maxime skated next to last in both segments. Had Evelyn and Trennt competed, with their usual level of competitiveness, and everything else remained the same re performances, then for sure D&M would have placed fourth with the two falls against the cleaner pair that moved ahead of them in the fp (who also happen to be their training mates if I'm not mistaken).

In my opinion, D&M deserved a bit higher scores on PCS, and certainly shouldn't have gotten lows in 5.5 and 6.0s. They deserve more in the range of 7.75 to 8.50 at the very least on the low end. But I'm not saying the scoring was hugely egregious. Judges' tendencies with new teams is to make them prove themselves. And for sure, even if it isn't fully conscious or intentional bias, the Canadian judges know Deanna is not a home-grown Canadian. That's a factor, no matter to what degree.

Deanna has to prove herself with Maxime. They both understand the stakes I'm sure. But she's taking a shot in hopes she might have a good chance with Maxime in Canada. The window of opportunity is narrow, but it's there, because they make a good match with some high level potential.

Didn't you hear the Canadian commentators not knowing how to discuss Deanna's age at last year's Canadian Nationals? It was a bit awkward. She's how old she is, and she's a superb athlete, so they don't need to act like she's a freak of nature or an oddity to be gawked at. I would even say that because she didn't beat her body up from ages 17 to 34 or so, that she has more of a lease on physical life at her age than athletes who pounded their bodies on the ice over a similar period of time.
 
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BlissfulSynergy said:
The Peacock platform is awful. Period.
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The replay feed was so blurry. Awful.

And why don't we have the option of viewing NBCSN, or allow the option of at least listening to NBCSN commentary? There should be that option provided for those who wish for commentary. Or they need to pay to bring in Charlie White again with either Michael Weiss or Tanith. Either of the latter two with Charlie did a great job at the past two U.S. Nationals on NBCGold.
 
saturdaysun said:
L/M should be in second IMO but oh well.
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No they shouldn't. Not just because they skated cleanly a program they've had for at least 2 seasons or more. Granted, Lu/Mitrofanov deserve credit and good marks for skating well on everything. But they do not deserve as high PCS that they received, IMHO. They are pleasant to watch and I've always enjoyed watching L/M, but they still leave something to be desired in terms of expression and connection. They are young and still developing in that area.

L/M may deserve to be slightly ahead of C-G/L, but no way ahead of Calalang/Johnson. I would have L/M around 67, not 69. I also think U.S. fed needs to realize that K/F are a new pair despite how well they have come together. That means K/F have to make a good impression on Worlds judges who will not be interested in giving them anything. So treat all of your talented pairs fairly, and try not to exalt one team way above the others.

The slight double foot by Alexa on her throw landing would likely have been caught by international judges and marked down. Maybe K/F could score around 70 or so for this program starting out as a new pair internationally. I'm not sure how international judges, would rate K/F, but it wouldn't be 77 first time out. I think 74 to 75 would have been a reasonable score for K/F at this event, and perhaps 70+ for C/J; 67 for L/M, and a close 66 for Ash/Tim. The protocols show that the judges dropped C-G/L down another point to 65 behind L/M. Somebody really has it in for C-G/L -- a way to beat them down when their confidence is shaky.

It should be clear that C/J possess a world-class high level of quality skating! Just because both Jessica & Brian have trouble consistently landing their sbs jumps does not make them weak on their world-class elements. Lu/Mitrofanov wish they had the caliber of 3-twist, lifts, skating skills and magical connection that Jessica & Brian have in spades. Even though NBC highlighted and touted Knierim/Frazier's triple twist, Jessica & Brian have the best 3-twist out of all U.S. pairs teams. It is so high, light and effortless. They make it look so easy, and it's not. K/F also have a superb triple twist with great height, but maybe a tad less high than C/J's. The judges noticed accurately in this instance. If you check the protocols, you will see that K/F got one 3, one 5 and the rest 4s for their triple twist. Jessica & Brian got straight 5s across the board on their triple twist.

The problem for both Jessica & Brian is that they received straight -5s for the error on the sbs 3-salchows. And it's NOT just Jessica who has the problem, though it always seems to be highlighted when she falls or has problems on the jumps. Toward the end of last season and earlier in 2020, Jessica began landing her jumps better, and then Brian became shaky. Then they both got it together for 2020 U.S. Nationals fp, and made a huge impression with their clean skate. Next, at 4CCs, they both were a little sketchy on the jumps, but great on everything else, placing third in the fp over Kirsten/Michael of Canada (and 4th overall). C/J had momentum and then they got the Worlds nod when Chris K retired after 4CCs.

Unfortunately, both C/J and Cain/LeDuc had the misfortune of not being able to attend Worlds because of the cancellation due to the pandemic. That opportunity was crucial for both teams to make a good impression internationally. For C-G/L, it was a chance to redeem their season, and for C/J to continue through with the momentum they had coming out of Nationals and 4CCs.
 
I keep reading comments implying that the judges are "dumping" Ashley and Tim.

I just don't think that is accurate. Yep, they finished fourth in this segment, but they were also outskated by three other teams... in my opinion, anyway.
  • Alexa and Brandon skated really well. Sure, you can quibble about the brush with the ice on the throw, but honestly, I didn't even notice it, even on replay. It didn't effect the flow of the exit at any rate.
  • I thought Jessica and Brian were actually fairly close to Ashley and Tim in the way they skated their program... but Brian and Jessica justifiably beat them on the big ticket pair items - the twist and the lift. Those were really world class elements - so overall a fairly equal feeling as they left the ice, but Jessica and Brian were great where it really counted on the scoreboard.
  • Audrey and Misha skated a very clean very difficult program. Yes, they're still working on connection and "feels" but every element, taken in isolation, was difficult and really well done. I wasn't surprised at all that they beat Ashley and Tim on the basis of technical superiority, even while justifiably giving up ground on the second mark.
Sure, we can argue over a point here or a point there. It's what we skating fans love to do. I certainly do that myself. But I don't see any justification for the "dumping" arguments that are being made, at least in this competition. Three teams delivered better programs, so Tim and Ashley finished fourth. That's not an unfair result.
 
I generally enjoy your posts, but a few points I'd like to argue...

BlissfulSynergy said:
I also think U.S. fed needs to realize that K/F are a new pair despite how well they have come together.
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The length of their partnership should be irrelevant. What should matter is what they deliver on the ice at this competition, nothing else. The last thing I believe any of us desire is USFSA "managing" the outcome. If they skate best, then they should win. If another pair skates better, then that pair should win.

BlissfulSynergy said:
Somebody really has it in for C-G/L -- a way to beat them down when their confidence is shaky.
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I've addressed the general idea of Ashley and Tim being dumped in a prior post. I think that's not supported by the facts. As for the confidence thing, NBC reported that they believe they are the best American pair, period. That doesn't sound as they they lack confidence.
 
BlissfulSynergy said:
No they shouldn't. Not just because they skated cleanly a program they've had for at least 2 seasons or more. Granted, Lu/Mitrofanov deserve credit and good marks for skating well on everything. But they do not deserve as high PCS that they received, IMHO. They are pleasant to watch and I've always enjoyed watching L/M, but they still leave something to be desired in terms of expression and connection. They are young and still developing in that area.

L/M may deserve to be slightly ahead of C-G/L, but no way ahead of Calalang/Johnson. I would have L/M around 67, not 69. I also think U.S. fed needs to realize that K/F are a new pair despite how well they have come together. That means K/F have to make a good impression on Worlds judges who will not be interested in giving them anything. So treat all of your talented pairs fairly, and try not to exalt one team way above the others.

The slight double foot by Alexa on her throw landing would likely have been caught by international judges and marked down. Maybe K/F could score around 70 or so for this program starting out as a new pair internationally. I'm not sure how international judges, would rate K/F, but it wouldn't be 77 first time out. I think 74 to 75 would have been a reasonable score for K/F at this event, and perhaps 70+ for C/J; 67 for L/M, and a close 66 for Ash/Tim. The protocols show that the judges dropped C-G/L down another point to 65 behind L/M. Somebody really has it in for C-G/L -- a way to beat them down when their confidence is shaky.

It should be clear that C/J possess a world-class high level of quality skating! Just because both Jessica & Brian have trouble consistently landing their sbs jumps does not make them weak on their world-class elements. Lu/Mitrofanov wish they had the caliber of 3-twist, lifts, skating skills and magical connection that Jessica & Brian have in spades. Even though NBC highlighted and touted Knierim/Frazier's triple twist, Jessica & Brian have the best 3-twist out of all U.S. pairs teams. It is so high, light and effortless. They make it look so easy, and it's not. K/F also have a superb triple twist with great height, but maybe a tad less high than C/J's. The judges noticed accurately in this instance. If you check the protocols, you will see that K/F got one 3, one 5 and the rest 4s for their triple twist. Jessica & Brian got straight 5s across the board on their triple twist.

The problem for both Jessica & Brian is that they received straight -5s for the error on the sbs 3-salchows. And it's NOT just Jessica who has the problem, though it always seems to be highlighted when she falls or has problems on the jumps. Toward the end of last season and earlier in 2020, Jessica began landing her jumps better, and then Brian became shaky. Then they both got it together for 2020 U.S. Nationals fp, and made a huge impression with their clean skate. Next, at 4CCs, they both were a little sketchy on the jumps, but great on everything else, placing third in the fp over Kirsten/Michael of Canada (and 4th overall). C/J had momentum and then they got the Worlds nod when Chris K retired after 4CCs.

Unfortunately, both C/J and Cain/LeDuc had the misfortune of not being able to attend Worlds because of the cancellation due to the pandemic. That opportunity was crucial for both teams to make a good impression internationally. For C-G/L, it was a chance to redeem their season, and for C/J to continue through with the momentum they had coming out of Nationals and 4CCs.
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Jackie Wongs opinion, for what it is worth, is that K/F’s short would have gotten mid 70s internationally. I have no opinion.
 
TontoK said:
I generally enjoy your posts, but a few points I'd like to argue...



The length of their partnership should be irrelevant. What should matter is what they deliver on the ice at this competition, nothing else. The last thing I believe any of us desire is USFSA "managing" the outcome. If they skate best, then they should win. If another pair skates better, then that pair should win.



I've addressed the general idea of Ashley and Tim being dumped in a prior post. I think that's not supported by the facts. As for the confidence thing, NBC reported that they believe they are the best American pair, period. That doesn't sound as they they lack confidence.
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I concur. Ashley and Tim are my favorite pairs team, but they were outskated by three other teams in the SP. I don't think any dumping happened. But with the consistency of US pairs being very questionable, Ashley and Tim do have a chance to move up if they skate well. Still the long program to go. It's sometimes unwise to come to conclusions before a competition is completed.
 
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