If it's true that Mishin was willing to give one coach spot to someone else, I really don't see a problem. I wouldn't see it as a problem if any other federation did that either.
2021 World Figure Skating Championships: General Info
- Thread starter gsk8
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- Feb 27, 2012
The ISU Congress in 2018 approved the rule change re Olympic qualifying.
Ahh - what a pity! I've always liked his skating and thought he was often undermarked. I hope he's able to recover for next season.
I only see an issue as not all federations would have this luxury.
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- Jun 26, 2012
This has changed compared to other years. If you get 3 spots for the Olympics, due for example to a 6th and 7th place at the WC and you now have 2 spots, the Federation in question has to send someone else than the skaters with the placements to get that spot, through the Nebelhorn process. The same applies when you get those 3 spots and you actually have 3 spots at worlds, but 2 were 6th and 7th and your 3rd entry did not reach the Free skate/Dance. However, if you have 3 spots now, 2 of them have placements at max 13 (6,7 or 5,8 or 4,9, etc.) but the third is entered for the FS, then it won't be necessary for confirm this third spot in the Nebelhorn process. Then the spots are there.
Similar changes apply for getting 2 spots. So, some Federations can earn a 2nd or 3rd spot this time although it's more a question of final confirmation by another skater/couple than the one that managed to 'seize' the number. It's rather complex to be honest, so perhaps I have understood this all wrong. I'm sure there is some official document explaining it all much better.
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- Oct 20, 2017
If Keegan places in the top 10, will either Roman or Nam have to earn the second spot at Nebelhorn or does that rule only apply to the situation with two skaters at Worlds where one places in the top 10 and the other doesn't make the cut for the FS?
One of them will need to qualify, and I think only one of them will get to compete as they limit entries during Olympic year
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- Dec 4, 2004
I respectfully disagree. Many skaters and other athletes and people are minors and need our protection from preditory coaches and team doctors and adult skaters. As well as unsafe skating conditions NOT agreed to by their parents or guardians. Yes, I realize skating is done in many countries with many different laws about age of consent, sex with blood relatives, and when a young person has the right to make decisions about their own safety. Each Fed has its own rules, or lack thereof, but the ISU needs its own set of rules on when a skater is old enough to take responsibility for their safety or whether their parent/coach/guardian has to make those calls. JMTC
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- Jan 28, 2013
I think this revised Nebelhorn thing is meant to address a situation like (in years past) Kazakhstan having earned three spots... but really only having one suitable athlete. They would still have three spots... provided the others can prove their worthiness at Nebelhorn.
And NO DISRESPECT intended towards Kazakhstan... just using as an example.
Have I got that right?
And NO DISRESPECT intended towards Kazakhstan... just using as an example.
Have I got that right?
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- Dec 4, 2004
No reason to be a complete stranger...I have a herrniated disc in my back and cant stay awake for comps that arent in my time zone, but I can butt in here once in awhile and enjoy what my friends are saying...this forum provides a great relief from the stresses of the world right now. We here pretty much all need that for all sorts of individual reasons....Check in when and if you can....till then, Hugging a puppy on national puppy day in the US also helps some of us to decompress. Best wishes to you and may all our lives return to what ever is the new normal.I was so looking forward to hanging out with you guys again after taking a year off to deal with the dumpster fire of 2020, but I just can't fit it around my schedule. I can't afford to turn away clients during spring break rush, not after the salon being shut down for so long last year
Grand Prix 2021, when the summer rush is over, I'll come back. Until then, I wish I could be...
Yes, it's basically trying to get skaters to earn their own spots and not just have spots because others are good. Of course, feds can send whoever they want, but at least this means that there are at least 2 or 3 decent skaters for those spots. Especially since Olympic spots are limited (unlike worlds), so it makes sense that the standard is a bit higher for those who get to go.
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- Feb 27, 2012
Yes, the rule change would have made a difference in the Tursynbaeva/Kazakhstan situation
(And the change also will have other types of effects.)
Note: The rule change would have meant that KAZ could earn a total of no more than two
With the rule change, a federation with only one entry at Worlds in a discipline has no possibility at all of earning three OWG spots in the discipline.
The rule change specifies that at Nebelhorn:
- "Only one (1) quota place per discipline per NOC may be earned."
- In reference to federations for which the requirement of sufficient entries qualifying for the Worlds FS/FD is an issue:
"These ISU members are entitled to enter one (1) Skater in the qualifying event [meaning Nebelhorn] who had not qualified for the Free Skating/Free Dance at the ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2021."
- In reference to federations for which the requirement of sufficient entries qualifying for the Worlds FS/FD is an issue:
"These ISU members are entitled to enter one (1) Skater in the qualifying event [meaning Nebelhorn] who had not qualified for the Free Skating/Free Dance at the ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2021."
ETA:
Eeek, sorry that I originally had garbled the relevant years regarding Tursynbaeva. I have made corrections above.
Regarding some other effects of the rule change, I will repeat what I just posted in the U.S. Ladies thread:
At the 2018 ISU Congress, 52 federations voted for the rule change for Olympic qualifying.
(... It should not be assumed that the rule change invariably will be unhelpful to Team USA or unhelpful to small federations.
If the rule change had been in effect for 2018 OWG pair spots, it would have meant that:
(... It should not be assumed that the rule change invariably will be unhelpful to Team USA or unhelpful to small federations.
If the rule change had been in effect for 2018 OWG pair spots, it would have meant that:
- Team USA would have gained the benefit of being able to compete at Nebelhorn for a second OWG pair spot.
- CZE, PRK, AUS would have earned 2018 OWG pair spots outright via Worlds -- instead of needing to earn their spots via Nebelhorn.
- CHN would have needed to earn their third OWG pair spot via Nebelhorn.
- GER would have needed to earn their second OWG pair spot via Nebelhorn. (Ditto for FRA, if it had wanted a second spot.)
Per the rules in effect at the time, Team USA instead earned one 2018 OWG pair spot via 2017 Worlds, and had no chance to compete at Nebelhorn for a second OWG spot.
- CZE, PRK, AUS would have earned 2018 OWG pair spots outright via Worlds -- instead of needing to earn their spots via Nebelhorn.
- CHN would have needed to earn their third OWG pair spot via Nebelhorn.
- GER would have needed to earn their second OWG pair spot via Nebelhorn. (Ditto for FRA, if it had wanted a second spot.)
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- Jan 12, 2014
I find the pairs (19 entries) and dance (23 entries) kinda shifty. They need 5 groups anyway, why not round up the number?
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- Jan 5, 2008
Someone earlier said that the number of spots for qualifying for the Olympics at Nebelhorn would be 6 for Ladies and Men, 4 for Dance, and 3 for Pairs (I may be wrong in my memory of Dance and Pairs
). Do these new rules for qualification change these numbers when a country at this year's Worlds qualifies for more future spots than they have skaters making it to the Free Program?
). Do these new rules for qualification change these numbers when a country at this year's Worlds qualifies for more future spots than they have skaters making it to the Free Program?Previously, if a country qualified multiple spots at worlds and chose not to use them all, then those extra spots would be additional available spots to get at Nebelhorn. For example, at 2017 worlds, France qualified 2 pairs spots, but only chose to use 1, so there was 1 extra spot available to get at Nebelhorn.Someone earlier said that the number of spots for qualifying for the Olympics at Nebelhorn would be 6 for Ladies and Men, 4 for Dance, and 3 for Pairs (I may be wrong in my memory of Dance and Pairs
This same rule applies in the new system. The extra spots a country earns at worlds is provisional, and if they don't send anyone to Nebelhorn or the skaters don't place high enough, then that spot would be forfeited and the next eligible skater will qualify a spot for their country.
That is interesting. But maybe I misunderstand, but I am not a parent/coach/guardian of a skater and therefor it just isn’t up to me, and I don’t consider it up to me to protect them.
Maybe... it’s a cultural or a personal thing, too... I often see people here talk about a skater as their “son” or “daughter”, which of course they don’t mean literally, but it does indicate feeling a sense of protectiveness towards them. I have never felt anything like that towards a skater (nope, not even Yuzu). I like them, but I do not know them *at all*, and they don’t know me, so I cannot imagine why I would have to ‘protect’ them from the big bad world out there.
ps I mean off-ice, naturally. When they are skating, most nails don’t survive because I worry skaters will breaks arms and ankles and whatnots. But that’s different. That’s just being terrified. I think Daniel Samohin scarred me for life. J/k ;-)
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- Feb 27, 2012
Someone earlier said that the number of spots for qualifying for the Olympics at Nebelhorn would be 6 for Ladies and Men, 4 for Dance, and 3 for Pairs (I may be wrong in my memory of Dance and Pairs
Hi, Paul.
'Twas I who listed the numbers of OWG spots available per discipline via Nebelhorn.If you are willing to bear with me
, my response to your question has two parts.(1) If a discipline at Nebelhorn includes any federations trying to follow thru on Worlds results and to qualify for an additional OWG spot via Nebelhorn, that would not change the number of OWG spots available via Nebelhorn, AFAIK.
(And the success/failure of those federations at Nebelhorn would not change the number of spots available via Nebelhorn, AFAIK.)
(2) But I think the rule change for 2022 OWG possibly could have ripple effects in the following sense:
My understanding is that it would be possible for the number of OWG spots based only on Worlds results to not use up the full allotment earmarked solely for Worlds -- because for a federation with only one Worlds entry in a discipline, not qualifying for the FS/FD means no OWG spot (per ISU Special Rules, page 29).
In such a scenario of any empty Worlds-based spot(s), the Nebelhorn allotment of OWG spots would increase accordingly to fill the total quota of OWG spots.
(I do not know how rare or not-so-rare it was for this scenario to arise for previous editions of OWG???)
For example, if the rule change had been in effect for Ladies for 2017 Worlds/2018 OWG:
What actually happened with 2017 Worlds/2018 OWG, according to the existing rules:
In such a scenario of any empty Worlds-based spot(s), the Nebelhorn allotment of OWG spots would increase accordingly to fill the total quota of OWG spots.
(I do not know how rare or not-so-rare it was for this scenario to arise for previous editions of OWG???)
For example, if the rule change had been in effect for Ladies for 2017 Worlds/2018 OWG:
(First of all, my apologies that when discussing Tursynbaeva in a previous post, I garbled the years. Her second place was at 2019 Worlds, so my discussion in the previous post really was about a hypothetical "2020 OWG." I have edited in corrections.)
By my count, applying the new rule to 2017 Worlds results would mean that only 22 ladies OWG spots would be filled outright (not using up the quota for Worlds of 24). The 22 spots that would be filled outright:
No other federation had a lady who qualified for 2017 Worlds FS.
In this scenario, 2 unfilled OWG spots would be "left over" from Worlds, so the number of OWG spots available via Nebelhorn would be 2 + 6 = 8.
By my count, applying the new rule to 2017 Worlds results would mean that only 22 ladies OWG spots would be filled outright (not using up the quota for Worlds of 24). The 22 spots that would be filled outright:
RUS 3
USA 3
JPN 2
CAN 2 (plus one Nebelhorn entry -- but not Osmond or Daleman)
ITA 1 (plus one Nebelhorn entry -- but not Kostner)
KAZ 1 (plus one Nebelhorn entry -- but not Tursynbaeva)
KOR 1 (plus one Nebelhorn entry -- but not Dabin Choi)
CHN 1
BEL 1
SVK 1
FRA 1
GER 1
HUN 1
LAT 1
ARM 1
AUS 1
Total = 22
USA 3
JPN 2
CAN 2 (plus one Nebelhorn entry -- but not Osmond or Daleman)
ITA 1 (plus one Nebelhorn entry -- but not Kostner)
KAZ 1 (plus one Nebelhorn entry -- but not Tursynbaeva)
KOR 1 (plus one Nebelhorn entry -- but not Dabin Choi)
CHN 1
BEL 1
SVK 1
FRA 1
GER 1
HUN 1
LAT 1
ARM 1
AUS 1
Total = 22
No other federation had a lady who qualified for 2017 Worlds FS.
In this scenario, 2 unfilled OWG spots would be "left over" from Worlds, so the number of OWG spots available via Nebelhorn would be 2 + 6 = 8.
What actually happened with 2017 Worlds/2018 OWG, according to the existing rules:
- All 24 spots available via Worlds were filled. LAT earned the 24th OWG spot via Worlds.
- ARM and AUS did not earn OWG spots via Worlds.
- ARM and AUS did not earn OWG spots via Worlds.
ARM sent Galustyan to Nebelhorn, but did not earn an OWG spot. (She placed eighth.)
AUS sent Craine to Nebelhorn, and did earn an OWG spot. (She placed first.)
AUS sent Craine to Nebelhorn, and did earn an OWG spot. (She placed first.)
The IOC (as opposed to the ISU) controls the size of the fields, and the IOC has been clear that its goal is to reduce the total number of athletes (added up from all sports) at the Games.
For 2022, the field size for pairs and dance has decreased by one entry since 2018.
ETA:
Forgot to add that for 2022, the "Additional Athletes Quota" for figure skating has been reduced to five skaters. Used to be ten. Presumably also a decision of the IOC (not ISU).
Also worth keeping in mind, IMO:
Per OWG rules, Korea as the host country received an otherwise-unearned 2018 pair spot.
So the 2018 OWG Pairs SP had six groups (with three pairs in Group 1 and three pairs in Group 2).
It so happens that 2022 OWG are in China, which will have no problem qualifying in pairs and in dance.
But conceptually, maybe the example of 2018 Pairs could be an additional reason that the IOC is not wed to quotas corresponding to five full groups?
So the 2018 OWG Pairs SP had six groups (with three pairs in Group 1 and three pairs in Group 2).
It so happens that 2022 OWG are in China, which will have no problem qualifying in pairs and in dance.
But conceptually, maybe the example of 2018 Pairs could be an additional reason that the IOC is not wed to quotas corresponding to five full groups?
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- Dec 4, 2004
You might be right....it could be cultural. For instance, in the French culture, laws of this nature are vastly different than in my country, the US. And in the US, most of the laws ref the protection of children are left to the states. There are some major exceptions of course, like Child Labor .
Youth & Young Worker Employment
I am not an official parent either... but I feel it my duty as a citizen of the state of WA and the US to protect children, and other living things, from abuse by making my voice heard through my legislatures and my vote. Each of us has our own ideas of what laws need to be passed and which ones need to be trashed. That is democracy for you, I guess.
The ISU or for that matter the IOC have some difficult circumstances legally. Do they go by the rules of the country an event is held in? Or do they have their own set of rules? Either way, If I dont like what is happening, I can chose not to participate, to join, or give money to any organization. Or accept majority rule. My call.
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