2023 4CC: Women | Thoughts

[CoyoteChris]

It looks like the lady in the background is staring at someone else to blame .

Probably at all the autograph hounds!

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Her being the only consistent skater that year made the fed overmark her. Like, her scores were too high for what she was showing imo. Maybe she deserved to win but not that clearly. She wasn't that better.


I wonder what is the difference between Isabeau and Bradie in their first senior season.
They both came into seniors when none of the other girls were particularly strong or consistent. In both cases, USfed gave its support to the most consistent one.
Was Bradie better artistically to deserve her support and her title while Isabeau isn't? Or was she better technically while Isabeau isn't not only mostly rotating her jump but also attempting harder layouts?
The only difference imo was that Isabeau was successful in juniors and her senior success was expected while Bradie was far from being in the same case.
I don't understand why Bradie was deserving her success then but Isabeau isn't.

And now, it isn't like Bradie is in top shape and doesn't have URs issues anymore.

PS: I'm talking about Isabeau in response of your first post i was responding to.

No @yume, to my recollection, Bradie was reasonably scored when she won her first U.S. Nationals gold medal in 2018, which is about five years ago, and not relevant to the discussion in this thread. Your comments are rather nitpicky regarding Bradie. If you don't like her skating, fine. Those of us who have closely followed her career, disagree with you.

The rest of your comments comparing Bradie and Isabeau have nothing to do with my previous post. I mentioned the careers of a number of U.S. ladies, but I wasn't comparing them, just talking about different aspects of their skating and how U.S. fed has handled their ladies discipline. The nature of the sport makes it difficult to provide competitive opportunities for so many talented skaters. It's a problem that's not being addressed either domestically or internationally.

I don't see why you are comparing Bradie with Isabeau. Bradie turned 20 in 2018 when she went to her first Olympics. She did not burst onto the scene as a young phenom. Isabeau was 14 when she debuted at senior U.S. Nats last year. She turned 15 soon afterward, and she will celebrate her 16th birthday in early March. My comments about Isabeau and Alysa are not a negative reflection on their talents and abilities. The issue I was referencing is the tendency, which we have seen generally in the sport, of over hyping young skaters before they have fully developed. That's a practice which has proven to be problematic for the skaters, for the ladies discipline, and for the sport.

You made a number of blanket statements and comparisons that aren't accurate, and once again, are irrelevant to this thread. No matter your unrelated, and off-topic assertions, it still stands that Bradie often gets dinged for close UR calls by international judges, while some competitors have similar close URs that are overlooked or simply not called upon review.

 

[yume]

No @yume, to my recollection, Bradie was reasonably scored when she won her first U.S. Nationals gold medal in 2018, which is about five years ago, and not relevant to the discussion in this thread. Your comments are rather nitpicky regarding Bradie. If you don't like her skating, fine. Those of us who have closely followed her career, disagree with you.

The rest of your comments comparing Bradie and Isabeau have nothing to do with my previous post. I mentioned the careers of a number of U.S. ladies, but I wasn't comparing them, just talking about different aspects of their skating and how U.S. fed has handled their ladies discipline. The nature of the sport makes it difficult to provide competitive opportunities for so many talented skaters. It's a problem that's not being addressed either domestically or internationally.

I don't see why you are comparing Bradie with Isabeau. Bradie turned 20 in 2018 when she went to her first Olympics. She did not burst onto the scene as a young phenom. Isabeau was 14 when she debuted at senior U.S. Nats last year. She turned 15 soon afterward, and she will celebrate her 16th birthday in early March. My comments about Isabeau and Alysa are not a negative reflection on their talents and abilities. The issue I was referencing is the tendency, which we have seen generally in the sport, of over hyping young skaters before they have fully developed. That's a practice which has proven to be problematic for the skaters, for the ladies discipline, and for the sport.

You made a number of blanket statements and comparisons that aren't accurate, and once again, are irrelevant to this thread. No matter your unrelated, and off-topic assertions, it still stands that Bradie often gets dinged for close UR calls by international judges, while some competitors have similar close URs that are overlooked or simply not called upon review.

Okay @BlissfulSynergy , my bad.

 

[CoyoteChris]

Anyone know what this hand gesture means?
Chris from the last century
(Watched the J and T coverage if Four conts tonight and edited out the commercialss..will save this to my DVD collection)
Oddly, J and T didnt overly jabber....

 

[lileychristie]

Anyone know what this hand gesture means?
Chris from the last century
(Watched the J and T coverage if Four conts tonight and edited out the commercialss..will save this to my DVD collection)
Oddly, J and T didnt overly jabber....

Haein and Rinka were making small hearts with their fingers, specifically with their thumbs and index fingers

It's called Finger Heart and was popularized in South Korea: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger_heart#:~:text=The mini heart gesture is,to form a tiny heart.

Meanwhile, Mone was making a larger heart with the more common both hands gesture

 

[CoyoteChris]

Haein and Rinka were making small hearts with their fingers, specifically with their thumbs and index fingers

It's called Finger Heart and was popularized in South Korea: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger_heart#:~:text=The mini heart gesture is,to form a tiny heart.

Meanwhile, Mone was making a larger heart with the more common both hands gesture

Thanks to you and Sabsi for the links....very interesting....unfortunately, I live in a country where hand gestures are limited and are not very positive. I wonder if Spock the Vulcan has a gesture for love?

 

[noskates]

I'm not sure the USFS overhypes anyone as much as looking for ways to promote figure skating. Any star in any sport is going to get a lot of press - that supposedly sells tickets. I'm also not sure that overhyping is what caused Alyssa to quit the sport. I've always felt there was more to that story than was published - but that's just a hunch on my part and not based in any factual information. If I was in charge (OMG) and I had such potential star skaters like Isabeau and Ilia, I would be getting as much press as possible for them. It's just the nature of any business - again, those ticket sales! Does it always work out? No. Is it a lot of pressure on the athlete? Oh yeah. But if you're going to aspire to greatness in a sport you need to learn early on how to handle the pressure - not only of the actual competitions, but the outside pressures as well. Here's where I look to the coaching team and the parents to "protect" their skater. And that doesn't always happen, I'm sorry to say.

 

[TallyT]

I'm not sure the USFS overhypes anyone as much as looking for ways to promote figure skating. Any star in any sport is going to get a lot of press - that supposedly sells tickets.

There is hype and there is overhype, and there are good reasons why the latter needs care, especially when the hypee has not yet built a public profile to match it. For a start, expectations both by the public (Gracie is the classic example of this) and the skaters themselves (see Isabeau's expression when her marks in the SP came up, and the extreme example of the meltdowns from the Russian girls when they didn't get what hype had told them they deserved) can get nasty. Sport is already littered with youngsters who didn't - couldn't - live up to earlier ideas due to factors out of their control. Malinin seems to have the necessary ego to deal with all this, but did Alysa? Does Isabeau? Does whoever comes after her?

Secondly, you can publicise your up and comers, even the ones you expect HUGE things from, without blatantly banging on about that they are already the greatest thing in the history of sport. It puts people - you know, the ones you want to buy those tickets? - off (okay okay, I know Americans have a reputation for doing this, and in fact all countries do even more or somewhat less, but it only works if and when the up and comers have shown they have the talent and hopefully the appeal to get said public to swallow it).

What happens if and when they don't live up to the hype, or even if they do but the public just go "ehhhhh no thanks"? Nathan Chen was hyped to the rafters and did get all the medals that went towards it, and yet there's no sign that all that has made more than a skerrick of difference to the popularity of the sport in his own country or worldwide.

A parade of "ooooh shinies" just jades and in the end bores, and right now the women especially, because of the emphasis on jumps, is very much moving to such a parade.

 

[skatingfan4ever]

Is it USFS doing all the overhyping though? I feel like the hype mainly comes from NBC and its commentators (ESPECIALLY Tara and Johnny) and from journalists writing about her. Yes, Isabeau has lovely skating skills and extension and has nerves of steel, but she also has weaknesses in her jump technique that are NEVER mentioned by Tara/Johnny. So then I suppose the question is, does USFS influence Tara/Johnny to say certain things, or are they giving their own genuine opinions as former skaters who are free to have such opinions and, rightly or wrongly, have the platform to do so? How much can and/or does the USFS control what the media says?

 

[Magill]

There is hype and there is overhype, and there are good reasons why the latter needs care, especially when the hypee has not yet built a public profile to match it. For a start, expectations both by the public (Gracie is the classic example of this) and the skaters themselves (see Isabeau's expression when her marks in the SP came up, and the extreme example of the meltdowns from the Russian girls when they didn't get what hype had told them they deserved) can get nasty. Sport is already littered with youngsters who didn't - couldn't - live up to earlier ideas due to factors out of their control. Malinin seems to have the necessary ego to deal with this, but did Alysa? Does Isabeau? Does whoever comes after her?

Secondly, you can publicise your up and comers, even the ones you expect HUGE things from, without blatantly going on about that they are already the greatest thing in the history of sport. It puts people - you know, the ones you want to buy those tickets? - off (okay okay, I know Americans have a reputation for doing this, and in fact all countries do even more or somewhat less, but it only works if and when the up and comers have shown they have the talent and hopefully the appeal to get said public to swallow it).

What happens if and when they don't live up to the hype, or even if they do but the public just go "ehhhhh no thanks"? Nathan Chen was hyped to the rafters and did get all the medals that went towards it, and yet there's no sign that all that has made more than a skerrick of difference to the popularity of the sport in his own country or worldwide.

A parade of "ooooh shinies" just jades and in the end bores, and right now the women especially, because of the emphasis on jumps, is very much moving to such a parade.

Could not be said better and could not agree more.
I will never forget young Alysa's face when she saw her international scores in her first JGPF. She could not help it, she was crying. The score was not bad. But she did not win, her underrotations were called, her PCS were not so great and rightly so as her skating was very juniorish. Well, she was just a child so nothing wrong with that. Yet it was difficult not to be sorry for her, she was such a nice and talented kid.
But instead of being encouraged and allowed time and space away from the noise to quietly develop - and having her weak points pointed to her to work on them - she was hyped into sky, showered with GOEs and PCS which she - frankly - did not yet deserve, made a US champion, announced the next greatest thing in the world and expected to beat all the Russian girls all at once. Moreover, she probably expected it herself and of herself. How it went, we all know. Really sad for her.
I have no idea how much it factored - if any - in her decision to leave the ice all together, but I was very sad for her as after all this hype whatever she did, there was always a feeling that she sort of underperformed and never lived up to those expectations which were way too high and too heavy and came too early for her.
It seems no lesson has been learnt....
As for alluring the general public into loving FS, bad news is the general public does not give a damn how many rotations are made in the air and cannot tell a toeloop from an axel, and even if, could not care less. If there is anything the general public might be captivated with it is the overall beauty of the performance - jumps included but not just jumps - which can be appreciated without any expert knowledge and speaks right to the soul.
But with the current scoring system and emphasis on more and more jumps as a trick to collect points among skaters, judges and within the skating community, it goes exactly in the opposite direction so....

 

[Magill]

Is it USFS doing all the overhyping though? I feel like the hype mainly comes from NBC and its commentators (ESPECIALLY Tara and Johnny) and from journalists writing about her. Yes, Isabeau has lovely skating skills and extension and has nerves of steel, but she also has weaknesses in her jump technique that are NEVER mentioned by Tara/Johnny. So then I suppose the question is, does USFS influence Tara/Johnny to say certain things, or are they giving their own genuine opinions as former skaters who are free to have such opinions and, rightly or wrongly, have the platform to do so? How much can and/or does the USFS control what the media says?

It starts with blatant overscoring which is not done by commentators...

 

[skatingfan4ever]

It starts with blatant overscoring which is not done by commentators...

Well, yes, but many skaters from many countries are given generous scores at Nationals. That is a widespread issue in the sport and not specific to USFS. I agree it should not happen.

 

[Magill]

Well, yes, but many skaters from many countries are given generous scores at Nationals. That is a widespread issue in the sport and not specific to USFS. I agree it should not happen.

The point is it is not "many" skaters - sort of equal overscoring of everyone - but the one chosen to be the next shiny thing which gets "overhyped". It is just so easy to tell who it is this time... and I watch from outside of US, so I do not hear Tara and Johnny that much.

 

[skatingfan4ever]

The point is it is not "many" skaters - sort of equal overscoring of everyone - but the one chosen to be the next shiny thing which gets "overhyped". It is just so easy to tell who it is this time... and I watch from outside of US, so I do not hear Tara and Johnny that much.

Thank you for your reply. My main point was that it is not only a USFS problem. USFS should stop, but so should everybody. Is it "more obvious" that USFS is doing it? Maybe. But I think no federation should do this, and yet it happens. It is very unfortunate indeed.

On the topic of the 4CC Women, I enjoyed Lee Haein's LP and her reaction afterward, as well as Kim Chaeyeon's SP. Mone Chiba is very impressive, and I love her spins. It was nice to see Sara-Maude Dupuis do so well. The American ladies were underwhelming. Those are my thoughts on the 4CC Women.

 

[TallyT]

Thank you for your reply. My main point was that it is not only a USFS problem. USFS should stop, but so should everybody. Is it "more obvious" that USFS is doing it? Maybe. But I think no federation should do this, and yet it happens. It is very unfortunate indeed.

On the topic of the 4CC Women, I enjoyed Lee Haein's LP and her reaction afterward, as well as Kim Chaeyeon's SP. Mone Chiba is very impressive, and I love her spins. It was nice to see Sara-Maude Dupuis do so well. The American ladies were underwhelming. Those are my thoughts on the 4CC Women.

True point (and the additional fact that no one in authority - in nealy every country! - seems to think of is that giving out candies in both hype and then PCRs to the chosen few makes for a duller competition but oh well...)

Haein and Mone were both wonderful. All of the Korean ladies had a lovely SP and as usual won the fashion stakes, they really do seem to know how to dress exquisitely.

 

[skylark]

As for alluring the general public into loving FS, bad news is the general public does not give a damn how many rotations are made in the air and cannot tell a toeloop from an axel, and even if, could not care less. If there is anything the general public might be captivated with it is the overall beauty of the performance - jumps included but not just jumps - which can be appreciated without any expert knowledge and speaks right to the soul.

This is exactly why so many people love Isabeau's skating so much. Her movement, her musical intelligence, her shining face all connect her skating to her soul and to the souls of the viewers.

But with the current scoring system and emphasis on more and more jumps as a trick to collect points among skaters, judges and within the skating community, it goes exactly in the opposite direction so....

I think there are plenty of voices within the sport who value the whole of skating, not just the points. It's why you have so many people raving about Isabeau's skating, and Haien Lee's skating. YMMV. ETA: it's also why even Tara and Johnny mention that Isabeau's "superpower" is her ability to cultivate calm while performing and thus show such mental competitive strength.

 

[Magill]

This is exactly why so many people love Isabeau's skating so much. Her movement, her musical intelligence, her shining face all connect her skating to her soul and to the souls of the viewers.




I think there are plenty of voices within the sport who value the whole of skating, not just the points. It's why you have so many people raving about Isabeau's skating, and Haien Lee's skating. YMMV. ETA: it's also why even Tara and Johnny mention that Isabeau's "superpower" is her ability to cultivate calm while performing and thus show such mental competitive strength.

I do like Isabeau and I agree she may captivate audiences. I did root for her throughout her junior career and was really happy for her to grab the junior title. But I do not see her as the best female senior skater on the planet. Not yet, by no means. That would be a huge exaggeration. Maybe it will come, we'll see, I wish her well, but just let her take her time and call her that when she actually becomes one. Please.
Still it was nothing against her, just more general remarks about the way this sport evolves. And, yes, she is on the bright side of it, for sure. Yet she is very young, and it also shows. Which is pretty alright but let's not pretend it is not there.
As for the voices who value the whole of skating and not just the points - they are just that - voices. Scoring is based on points, and results are based on scoring. The whole skating should be reflected in scoring, i.e. in points, i.e. in results. Jumps should not by default result in high PCS when not deserved. Not should they be expected to. This is not really a problem of Isabeau, I admit, it was just in relation to the post I was responding to, regarding rather more general trend. Sorry if it was a bit off topic.

 

[TallyT]

This is exactly why so many people love Isabeau's skating so much. Her movement, her musical intelligence, her shining face all connect her skating to her soul and to the souls of the viewers.

Errr.... this is exactly what I mean about overblown overhyping of an up and comer.

 

[skatesofgold]

Could not be said better and could not agree more.
I will never forget young Alysa's face when she saw her international scores in her first JGPF. She could not help it, she was crying. The score was not bad. But she did not win, her underrotations were called, her PCS were not so great and rightly so as her skating was very juniorish. Well, she was just a child so nothing wrong with that. Yet it was difficult not to be sorry for her, she was such a nice and talented kid.
But instead of being encouraged and allowed time and space away from the noise to quietly develop - and having her weak points pointed to her to work on them - she was hyped into sky, showered with GOEs and PCS which she - frankly - did not yet deserve, made a US champion, announced the next greatest thing in the world and expected to beat all the Russian girls all at once. Moreover, she probably expected it herself and of herself. How it went, we all know. Really sad for her.
I have no idea how much it factored - if any - in her decision to leave the ice all together, but I was very sad for her as after all this hype whatever she did, there was always a feeling that she sort of underperformed and never lived up to those expectations which were way too high and too heavy and came too early for her.
It seems no lesson has been learnt....
As for alluring the general public into loving FS, bad news is the general public does not give a damn how many rotations are made in the air and cannot tell a toeloop from an axel, and even if, could not care less. If there is anything the general public might be captivated with it is the overall beauty of the performance - jumps included but not just jumps - which can be appreciated without any expert knowledge and speaks right to the soul.
But with the current scoring system and emphasis on more and more jumps as a trick to collect points among skaters, judges and within the skating community, it goes exactly in the opposite direction so....

I’m not sure I would agree that the general public is captivated by beauty, at least not in America. Maybe that’s the case with older millennials, generation x-ers, baby boomers, and the Silent Generation, but I look at younger millennials and generation z-ers and I don’t think they have the attention span for beauty to be a driving factor in watching figure skating. I say this as a middle millennial. I’m not optimistic about the future of figure skating in the U.S.

 

[Magill]

I’m not sure I would agree that the general public is captivated by beauty, at least not in America. Maybe that’s the case with older millennials, generation x-ers, baby boomers, and the Silent Generation, but I look at younger millennials and generation z-ers and I don’t think they have the attention span for beauty to be a driving factor in watching figure skating. I say this as a middle millennial. I’m not optimistic about the future of figure skating in the U.S.

I guess it is always the question of how you define beauty. I guess millenials and z-ers see it differently from the baby boomers but those I know reach out for it anyhow. I am based in Europe and maybe do not know enough about America. But I do believe in human nature and the longing for beauty has always been a part of it. And the skaters are mostly millenials and/or z-ers themselves.
The audiences want to feel something and the true performers want to make them feel. That's universal and I do not think it has ever changed. The means change, but not the basics.