2024 JGP Czech Skate Men's FS

[TallyT]

@TallyT if you understand Gogitidze's costume, please enlighten the rest of us!

My first thought was it is meant to evoke an Arabian tent... which is very unkind though, because the costume is weird but no way is it the "OMG what the hell were they thinking" weird that some senior skaters have graced us with. It looks comfy, too. so that is something! Daniel's costume was way easier to work out, and I am definitely going to find a decent-sounding copy of the music, without the muddiness I think I could love it. I really really liked Patrick's and Taiga's costumes and the way Matias so totally does his own thing (sorry that he and Taiga - and Adam - had rougher skates today).

As for the skating - hey, we all get what fun we want out of it all! - Minkyu was lovely as always and Patrick was a complete contrast but great - kudos to Tamir for not getting spooked by Patrick's big score just before he came out!

 

[tsuyoboogie]

The difference between 5th and 6th is so small, literally that one fall on the choreo sequence. Can JSF overlook it this time?

Sending a skater who places in 5th is already JSF making an exception to their actual preference of an overall placement of 4th or higher

However, I'm desperately praying that they will still allow Taiga a second assignment since there is no substitute to send in his place
The Japanese Jr Men started with 14 JGP spots, yet regretfully JSF forfeited two of those spots outright by choosing only six boys to compete

I understand funds are a bit tight this season so sending a skater to compete when they have not "earned" the assignment is likely out of the question

 

[TallyT]

I understand funds are a bit tight this season so sending a skater to compete when they have not "earned" the assignment is likely out of the question

Pity the kids have to pay for the different fed's economic woes....

 

[FlossieH]

The difference between 5th and 6th is so small, literally that one fall on the choreo sequence. Can JSF overlook it this time?

Ikura Kushida placed 5th last week and she has been cut from her second JGP. Japan has so many skaters.

 

[tsuyoboogie]

Ikura Kushida placed 5th last week and she has been cut from her second JGP. Japan has so many skaters.

Not when it comes to the Jr Men

Ikura's second assignment was taken away to give Japan's final Jr Woman on the sub list a chance to compete
(8 girls competing for a total of 14 assignments so at this point 2 girls will only get 1 each)
If any of the other girls place lower than 5th in their first JGP, Ikura will likely be sent to compete again

For now, JSF has not forfeited any of their Jr Women's JGP spots while they started the season a boy short to fill their earned Jr Men's spots
(only 6 boys listed for 14 assignments)

 

[sisinka]

I saw top 7 men.

I was glad to see they were all fighting to give their best in both technical and presentation part. I was also nicely surprised with higher level of performance they showed.

David Bondar - sort of bad luck with second 3axel, some problematic landings, but I liked that he always found the way how to add planned next jump to combination or jump sequence. He also didn't let the fall to influence the rest of the program, so the overall impression was good.

Daiya Ebihara - he already had nice short program which I saw being on the ice rink, but mistake in flip cost him better position after Short Program. Avatar program with nice presentation. He was very concentrated especially in jump's preparations. I appreciated that he tried to save mistake in catching free leg's blade in change camel spin, he catched the boot to make it work.

Taiga Nishino - despite mistakes he skated visibly better than at the practise that day. He tried to concentrate better, strengthened better (he lacks good strengthening in general, so he needs exercises on the first place, if he wants to land jumps consistently and stop falling in steps). In some movements he even looked powerful, which is surprising for 14 year old skater.

I wish Taiga to get second JGP (somebody mentioned he can be in trouble with it).

Patrick Blackwell - very good jumping passes, great height of 3axel and 4 toeloop and as to 4toeloop - it was superbly executed. Kind of "darker" music suits him, energetic Step Sequence at the end. I am not a fan of backflip because of the danger it brings, but Patrick entered the jump perfectly concentrated and coordinated.

Minkyu Seo - very nice, positive and playful program. Despite the fact Minkyu is not the best technician in jumps yet, this was really nice complex skating with both presentation and technique. I would be glad, if his team improves his posture - Minkyu is leaning his upper body forward during whole program, it cuts down the elegance.

Tamir Kuperman - great 4toeloop, nice 3axel. It is also quite rare (especially in such young age) being able to express dramatic emotional CLASSICAL music (LP) and deliver vivid and passionate music (SP) in the same moment. But like usually being temperament in person naturally leads to "hurry, hurry" kind of approach. He corrected timing in 4toeloop, but wrong timing catched him again in missed second axel and underrotated 3toeloop in combination. Overall very good skate. He deserved better Composition and Presentation mark in my opinion.

Adam Hagara - like Jason Brown mentioned during warm-up (speaking about his own first Olympic experience where he skated last), and I can use this in Adam's case as well - he was physically ready, but not mentally ready this time. He kept fighting. Second 3axel was high.

 

[sisinka]

Few technical and less technical notes...


1. What is alarming for me is new blade feature.

Communication No. 2623 - "Difficult blade feature: using the blade in a way that has a significant impact on the balance, control and execution of the spin. The feature must be executed in camel, sit or Layback position and can be achieved for example by spinning on the heel or toe of the blade."

Most of skaters chose blade feature in camel position - toe pick or heel. Spinning on those parts of the blade create smaller (toe pick) or bigger and deeper (heel) hole on the ice. Also spinning on toe pick is one of begginer's mistake in spins, so it i surprising for me that it became a feature.

But holes on the ice ARE real issue. Thanks to different (not ideal) technique, there are already holes from flip and lutz, partially axel on the ice, newly from backflip.

If skater skates into a hole, it leads to stumble or fall. Ice resurfacing is done after two warm-up groups. For Grand Prix, European / World Championships and Olympics, ice resurfacing is done before last 2 best groups. We already have reverse skating order in Free Programs. It means that Bronze, Silver and Gold medalists after Short Program will be 10st - 12th skater to use the ice after resurfacing. While range of junior men's weight can be from let's say 40 to 65 kilograms (88 to 143 pounds), range of senior's weight can be let's say from 52 to 78 kilograms (114 to 171 pounds). Logically senior men will create bigger holes on the ice.

Loena Hendrickx didn't have the best Free Skate at 2023 European Championships, after the program she digged into the ice 3 times (she is thin and it was not done with maximal power). Some people from Figure Skating world criticised it, because it could cause troubles to Anastasiia Gubanova who was skating next. I don't belive it was intentional, I think Loena was frustrated and didn't realise the danger for Anastasiia.

This season Bronze medalist after the Short Program will enter the ice having additional 9 holes from blade feature anywhere across the ice, much deeper than Loena did. And it will be even worse for Silver and Gold medalists. We will expect top 3 senior men to execute from two to four quad jumps and two 3axels during Free Skate, each of these will need quite high entering speed. They will execute these difficult elements on the ice being damaged not only by holes from jumps, but newly from holes from blade features.

I would like to kindly ask ISU and Federation's members to remember the moment when they themselves as skaters skated into hole in full speed. It is no way positive experience. Do we really need to increase the possibility of top skaters skating into hole in full speed with this new blade feature? I personally don't think so. I would be very glad to see this blade feature to be deleted soon.


2. Camel position...during whole competition some young men were not able to get thigh of free leg parallel to the ice. I don't remember correctly original rules - was it parallel or 90 degrees?

Not counting camel position would lead to troubles. The position would be taken like upright position, right? I am not Technical specialist, so I guess only. Many skaters continued with Doughnut feature with free leg higher than in first camel position, which is camel position with difficult feature. So it would probably create flying combination spin with upright and camel position. It would create invalid element in Short Program. In Free Program it woud create two Combination Spins.

Communication No. 2623 - "Spin in one position with change of foot must have 2 revolutions in basic position on each foot. In Short Program, if this requirement is not fulfilled, the spin will get “No Value”. In Free Skating the sign “V” indicates that this requirement is not fulfilled. The base values of spins with the sign “V“ are listed in the SOV table."

Technical panel Handbook - "...camel (free leg backwards with the knee higher than the hip level)..."

https://cdn1.sportngin.com/attachments/document/2261-3167413/Aspire_All_About_Spins.pdf - if you look at the picture of camel spin on page 2, is it quite understandable with hip level.

But in real it is complicated. All skaters are having trunk NOT parallel with the ice from front side, instead they turn the trunk, so rotating on left leg, their left side of the trunk is closer to the ice. So hip level is no way horizontal for comparing it with knee level.

Hip level as a term is questionable. In rehabilitation (and making translation into Czech language) I would expect the hip level - to be line going through the highest place of pelvic - iliac crest. Looking at Internet and some definition, I found hip height - "Vertical distance from the floor to the greater trochanter (a bony prominence at the upper end of the thigh bone, palpable on the lateral surface of the hip)." It would mean that hip level is line connecting both greater trochanters.

Being Rehabilitation doctor it is not always easy to find greater trochanter through muscles. And the only way how to find both greater trochanter and iliac crest is to palpate it on human's body (but palpating bones is not always precise thanks to different muscle tone on both sides). And the only really precise way to find trochanter or iliac crest is X-ray method. In our case it would mean that Technical panel would be forced to palpate every skater to find his / her greater trochanters and mark that place on costume visibly to be able to see it during spins.

Thanks to trunk position you have one greater trochanter (iliac crest) higher and one lower.

Overall I find it confusing. 90 degrees or more between both thighs or being parallel to the ice were better definitions in my opinion and much more easily measured by Technical panel. It could be also defined like position of free leg - line going through the highest part of the knee and thigh is parellel to the ice, or 90 degrees or more comparing to line vertical to the ice.

Anyway when skaters have position of free leg lower, it is not looking well and under older definition this would not be counted. Some skaters were not OK even if we would take into account lower greater trochanter. But technical panel kindly overlooked it...and we cannot be surprised, because argumenting where greater trochanter is without knowing it with palpation or X-ray...


3. Rule 350 - Call to the Start - "Each Skater/Pair/Couple must take the starting position of each Segment of the competition (Short Program/Rhythm Dance, Free Skating/Free Dance or Pattern Dance) at the latest thirty seconds after he/they are called to the start."

Tamir got one point deduction for late start (this one point cost him bronze medal).

I was looking for definition of starting position, I didn't find any. If somebody knows, post it, please.

Looking at video from Junior Men's Free Skate after name announcement plus 30 seconds, Tamir was already standing on place where his program started = starting position. But he took additional probably 2 seconds to put his hands down with transfer of weight from one leg to another. With definition of starting position - "place you start your program from", he would be so so in time. With definition of "having all segments of body in position the first movement of program starts from" (this sounds quite funny IMO), he would be really late.

Anyway that is a silly mistake to lose point for.


4. Backflip is kind of "wild" and purely athletic element visually, which is suitable for certain kind of modern music only (in my opinion). Such music is more often used in exhibitions, but not that often for competive programs. Because it really doesn't give sense to try to have elegant lines with finished movements and then smash it all with scratching the ice and hunched position in backflip at the end of the program. If we want skaters to execute technical elements (jumps, spins, steps) in an artistic way and incorporate it into the feeling of the music, I see not much space for backflip beside some kind of really wild modern music. Patrick's backflip looked to be executed with good technique, but I think there are many ways how to express his music better using blades + good ice coverage + arm movements.

 

[lariko]

Few technical and less technical notes...


1. What is alarming for me is new blade feature.

Communication No. 2623 - "Difficult blade feature: using the blade in a way that has a significant impact on the balance, control and execution of the spin. The feature must be executed in camel, sit or Layback position and can be achieved for example by spinning on the heel or toe of the blade."

Most of skaters chose blade feature in camel position - toe pick or heel. Spinning on those parts of the blade create smaller (toe pick) or bigger and deeper (heel) hole on the ice. Also spinning on toe pick is one of begginer's mistake in spins, so it i surprising for me that it became a feature.

But holes on the ice ARE real issue. Thanks to different (not ideal) technique, there are already holes from flip and lutz, partially axel on the ice, newly from backflip.

If skater skates into a hole, it leads to stumble or fall. Ice resurfacing is done after two warm-up groups. For Grand Prix, European / World Championships and Olympics, ice resurfacing is done before last 2 best groups. We already have reverse skating order in Free Programs. It means that Bronze, Silver and Gold medalists after Short Program will be 10st - 12th skater to use the ice after resurfacing. While range of junior men's weight can be from let's say 40 to 65 kilograms (88 to 143 pounds), range of senior's weight can be let's say from 52 to 78 kilograms (114 to 171 pounds). Logically senior men will create bigger holes on the ice.

Loena Hendrickx didn't have the best Free Skate at 2023 European Championships, after the program she digged into the ice 3 times (she is thin and it was not done with maximal power). Some people from Figure Skating world criticised it, because it could cause troubles to Anastasiia Gubanova who was skating next. I don't belive it was intentional, I think Loena was frustrated and didn't realise the danger for Anastasiia.

This season Bronze medalist after the Short Program will enter the ice having additional 9 holes from blade feature anywhere across the ice, much deeper than Loena did. And it will be even worse for Silver and Gold medalists. We will expect top 3 senior men to execute from two to four quad jumps and two 3axels during Free Skate, each of these will need quite high entering speed. They will execute these difficult elements on the ice being damaged not only by holes from jumps, but newly from holes from blade features.

I would like to kindly ask ISU and Federation's members to remember the moment when they themselves as skaters skated into hole in full speed. It is no way positive experience. Do we really need to increase the possibility of top skaters skating into hole in full speed with this new blade feature? I personally don't think so. I would be very glad to see this blade feature to be deleted soon.


2. Camel position...during whole competition some young men were not able to get thigh of free leg parallel to the ice. I don't remember correctly original rules - was it parallel or 90 degrees?

Not counting camel position would lead to troubles. The position would be taken like upright position, right? I am not Technical specialist, so I guess only. Many skaters continued with Doughnut feature with free leg higher than in first camel position, which is camel position with difficult feature. So it would probably create flying combination spin with upright and camel position. It would create invalid element in Short Program. In Free Program it woud create two Combination Spins.

Communication No. 2623 - "Spin in one position with change of foot must have 2 revolutions in basic position on each foot. In Short Program, if this requirement is not fulfilled, the spin will get “No Value”. In Free Skating the sign “V” indicates that this requirement is not fulfilled. The base values of spins with the sign “V“ are listed in the SOV table."

Technical panel Handbook - "...camel (free leg backwards with the knee higher than the hip level)..."

https://cdn1.sportngin.com/attachments/document/2261-3167413/Aspire_All_About_Spins.pdf - if you look at the picture of camel spin on page 2, is it quite understandable with hip level.

But in real it is complicated. All skaters are having trunk NOT parallel with the ice from front side, instead they turn the trunk, so rotating on left leg, their left side of the trunk is closer to the ice. So hip level is no way horizontal for comparing it with knee level.

Hip level as a term is questionable. In rehabilitation (and making translation into Czech language) I would expect the hip level - to be line going through the highest place of pelvic - iliac crest. Looking at Internet and some definition, I found hip height - "Vertical distance from the floor to the greater trochanter (a bony prominence at the upper end of the thigh bone, palpable on the lateral surface of the hip)." It would mean that hip level is line connecting both greater trochanters.

Being Rehabilitation doctor it is not always easy to find greater trochanter through muscles. And the only way how to find both greater trochanter and iliac crest is to palpate it on human's body (but palpating bones is not always precise thanks to different muscle tone on both sides). And the only really precise way to find trochanter or iliac crest is X-ray method. In our case it would mean that Technical panel would be forced to palpate every skater to find his / her greater trochanters and mark that place on costume visibly to be able to see it during spins.

Thanks to trunk position you have one greater trochanter (iliac crest) higher and one lower.

Overall I find it confusing. 90 degrees or more between both thighs or being parallel to the ice were better definitions in my opinion and much more easily measured by Technical panel. It could be also defined like position of free leg - line going through the highest part of the knee and thigh is parellel to the ice, or 90 degrees or more comparing to line vertical to the ice.

Anyway when skaters have position of free leg lower, it is not looking well and under older definition this would not be counted. Some skaters were not OK even if we would take into account lower greater trochanter. But technical panel kindly overlooked it...and we cannot be surprised, because argumenting where greater trochanter is without knowing it with palpation or X-ray...


3. Rule 350 - Call to the Start - "Each Skater/Pair/Couple must take the starting position of each Segment of the competition (Short Program/Rhythm Dance, Free Skating/Free Dance or Pattern Dance) at the latest thirty seconds after he/they are called to the start."

Tamir got one point deduction for late start (this one point cost him bronze medal).

I was looking for definition of starting position, I didn't find any. If somebody knows, post it, please.

Looking at video from Junior Men's Free Skate after name announcement plus 30 seconds, Tamir was already standing on place where his program started = starting position. But he took additional probably 2 seconds to put his hands down with transfer of weight from one leg to another. With definition of starting position - "place you start your program from", he would be so so in time. With definition of "having all segments of body in position the first movement of program starts from" (this sounds quite funny IMO), he would be really late.

Anyway that is a silly mistake to lose point for.


4. Backflip is kind of "wild" and purely athletic element visually, which is suitable for certain kind of modern music only (in my opinion). Such music is more often used in exhibitions, but not that often for competive programs. Because it really doesn't give sense to try to have elegant lines with finished movements and then smash it all with scratching the ice and hunched position in backflip at the end of the program. If we want skaters to execute technical elements (jumps, spins, steps) in an artistic way and incorporate it into the feeling of the music, I see not much space for backflip beside some kind of really wild modern music. Patrick's backflip looked to be executed with good technique, but I think there are many ways how to express his music better using blades + good ice coverage + arm movements.

Now I am worried about more holes on ice causing more freak falls like the couple we had seen in this competition.