Replay Lounge 2025 NHK Trophy

[sisinka]

PART 1 (2/3):

And now - compare Yuma himself from NHK and Lombardia Trophy 2025, where he finished the rotations in my opinion.

Despite short phase between Yuma's 3flip and 3loop jumps, at Lombardia you can see his take-off arc of 3loop better.



Last note. Yuma's 3loop axis in the air was not straight. Which means that he did some kind of technical mistake in take-off. Which means that most likely the jump will be lower in height than usually. One of the reasons for underrotation is not enough height of the jump.

PICTURE of Yuma's take-off arc and landing moment of 3loop at NHK Trophy. I don't see full 3 rotations looking at position of blade and body.

 

[sisinka]

PART 1 (3/3):

As to 3axel...

You can compare Yuma's 3axel from NHK and Lombardia Trophy. At Lombardia there was a step-out after landing, but from my point the jump was fully rotated.



PICTURE of Yuma's take-off arc and landing moment of 3axel at NHK Trophy. I don't see full 3 rotations looking at position of blade and body.



If you still insist that Yuma does fully rotated 3loop and 3axel @Blades of Passion , feel free to explain it more in detail. Ideally with pictures or videos. If I miss something I will appreciate better education.

 

[sisinka]

PART 2:

Big part of my rehab work is about detail analysis of human body statics and body movement stereotypes. So in my case it comes naturally to mention details, without thinking about it.

After @Blades of Passion's post, I was like OK, maybe it is not really that much visible for everybody.

Let's ask figure skating experts to know, how they see the situation.
I asked 6 coaches, with one exception - all are former elite level skaters at international stage, who became coaches with international experiences as well.

Their answers:

Coach 1:
- 3flip + 3loop - 3loop on the edge between "q" and "<"
- 3axel - "q"

Coach 2:
- both clean (clear enough)

Coach 3:
- 3flip + 3loop - was looking at the edge of flip....finally he would take loop like rotated and let edge question go...
- 3axel - "q"
- really nice and kind notes about Technical panel having difficult work - they have very little time to decise, thanks to time schedule and advertisements they are pressured to decide quickly, in case of review - all 3 people votes, it can be 2 against 1...

Coach 4:
- prefered not to answer, pointing to need to see what camera angle Technical panel had, overall Yuma has clean technique and is coach's favourite skater

Coach 5:
- 3flip + 3loop - loop has non-transparent take-off arc, so it is more about guessing from what position to count rotations
- 3axel - could get "q"
- overall: the only precise sign of full rotations is to read from ice traces
- combinations of two jumps should be defined better with part about "visible and transparent" take-off arc in case of second jump, jumping second jump on one place (with no length) is not a presentation of great technique

Coach 6:
- from the first look it looks rotated, but coach would want better quality videos to go into more detailed analysis...

I must say that thanks to @Blades of Passion's comment I had very interesting conversations with some of coaches. They mentioned things which I wouldn't think about previously, even in few moments it was kind of eye opener. I appreciate that. So I have to thank you @Blades of Passion's, for "pushing" me to look for informations from experts.

Finally I would like to repeat that Yuma is great skater. It could be any other skater with possible underrotations who could be picked for analysis. As @Sai Bon mentioned, Yuma told in interview that he will would more to correct all mistakes. And I am sure he will and next competitions will be better only.

Technical panel has difficult work to do with not ideal (or not enough) camera angles. There is big time pressure from TV as well, which makes their work more demanding. There are also differences from competition to competition - some panels are simply more strict.

Hopefully ISU will implement changes which will help to improve these imperfections in future. Mainly for skaters - for better objectivity in technical part of this beautiful sport.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

Thank you for all these explanations and pictures! The problem of the change of jump curve before the -3Lo I had seen with Alysa Liu at Cup of China, if I remember correctly, and you explain it so much better!

 

[Blades of Passion]

PART 1 (2/3):

PICTURE of Yuma's take-off arc and landing moment of 3loop at NHK Trophy. I don't see full 3 rotations looking at position of blade and body.

A jump doesn't need to be 3 full rotations, it needs 2.75, and that's what the picture shows (assuming there wasn't too much pre-rotation). With a 1/2 turn of allowed pre-rotation it's really just 2.25 air rotations that defines a triple jump. His skate leaves the ice less than 45 degrees (1/8 turn) past the direction of facing the back board and he lands at least 135 degrees (7/8 of a rotation) past the back board. That's a completed triple jump, no 'q' call.

PICTURE of Yuma's take-off arc and landing moment of 3axel at NHK Trophy. I don't see full 3 rotations looking at position of blade and body.

Your "3 full rotations" line when talking about a Triple Axel is strange...but in any case what we are looking for is "does the skate land at least 1/4 turn past the direction of takeoff", and the picture again shows that he is landing a bit more around than 1/4 turn. His skate is pointing at the side board, he should land at least 90 degrees past that point (aka pointing at the short board of the rink), and as we can see his skate is past being completely sideways. It's not pointing directly at the back board, which would be a 'q', it's some degrees past that point.

 

[Mathman]

Your "3 full rotations" line when talking about a Triple Axel is strange...

I was just reading a period piece from the 1936 Olympics that praised Sonja Henie for doing a "double Axel -- one-and-a-half revolutions!!!" I was directed to the article by Google AI Overview which assured me that the first person to do a double Axel was Sonja Henie in 1936.

 

[Mathman]

PART 2:

Let's ask figure skating experts to know, how they see the situation.
I asked 6 coaches, with one exception - all are former elite level skaters at international stage, who became coaches with international experiences as well...

Thank you for this fascinating piece of reasearch. How very interesting to "compare and contrast" the responses of 6 equally qualified expert observers, how they more or less agreed overall and disagreed slightly on this or that detail.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

I was just reading a period piece from the 1936 Olympics that praised Sonja Henie for doing a "double Axel -- one-and-a-half revolutions!!!" I was directed to the article by Google AI Overview which assured me that the first person to do a double Axel was Sonja Henie in 1936.

I wished we could have two simultaneous reactions, here laughing and furious. In the very year of the death of Dick Button!
Sometimes funny things would arise when a journalist from other fields would fill in, in the absence of the usual one. I remember a South American newspaper announcing Richard Strauss' Der Rosenkavalier with a "The new Operetta by the King of the Waltz!" In the latest years, the journalist filling in had the resource of Internet to avoid big mistakes, but precisely with the arrival of AI, they might give in more than ever...

 

[sisinka]

A jump doesn't need to be 3 full rotations, it needs 2.75, and that's what the picture shows (assuming there wasn't too much pre-rotation). With a 1/2 turn of allowed pre-rotation it's really just 2.25 air rotations that defines a triple jump. His skate leaves the ice less than 45 degrees (1/8 turn) past the direction of facing the back board and he lands at least 135 degrees (7/8 of a rotation) past the back board. That's a completed triple jump, no 'q' call.




Your "3 full rotations" line when talking about a Triple Axel is strange...but in any case what we are looking for is "does the skate land at least 1/4 turn past the direction of takeoff", and the picture again shows that he is landing a bit more around than 1/4 turn. His skate is pointing at the side board, he should land at least 90 degrees past that point (aka pointing at the short board of the rink), and as we can see his skate is past being completely sideways. It's not pointing directly at the back board, which would be a 'q', it's some degrees past that point.

Thank you for explanation! You are Technical specialist, aren't you?

Thank you for 3axel correction, 3.5 rotations of course.

I am not sure that we understand each other - I think there is a mistake in some vocabularies, as I am
not native English speaker.
Speaking about rotation: I don't mean rotations in the air, I count pre-rotation as well. Term "rotation" is used in spins as well, so I never took it as "time in the air" only.
Speaking about take-off arc: I don't mean moment of take-off when blade leaves the ice. I mean arc which is BEFORE pre-rotation starts.

To control my understanding of your post...
When you say that skater does 1/2 turn of pre-rotation, than does 2 and 1/4 rotation in the air, then land.
When I say that skater does 2 and 3/4 rotation (meaning both in the air and pre-rotation) since take-off arc position, then land.
- This jump miss 1/4 of turn. And I believe that we both describe the same situation. Do I understand it well?

Description of 3loop from picture - I used take-off arc position VERSUS landing moment. If you would want moment of take-off when blade leaves the ice VERSUS landing moment, it would be this picture:



In 3loop he goes into the air and does around 2 and 1/4 of rotation, then he lands. So to fully rotated 3loop there is around 1/4 of turn missing in my understanding.

I would like to ask you 3 questions, if you wouldn't mind.
From ISU documents:
Changes and clarifications for Technical Elements for season 2024/25:
- Landed on the quarter (q): Technical panel will indicate this with a sign “q”. The jump will receive full base value and Judges will reduce GOE.
- Less than a quarter missing: No sign will indicate this. The jump will receive full base value and Judges will reduce GOE.

1. It means that landing on less then quarter - missing around 20 or 15 degrees, panel let it go. Right? Only judges will reduce GOE.

2. If situation didn't change, judges see elements in normal speed, there is NO slow motion possibility on their screens. Do you believe that they can be sure that jump is indeed clean OR underrotated up to quarter WITHOUT slow motion? Do they really reduce GOE without having slow motion?

3. Could you please look at Shun Sato's 4lutz in Short Program at NHK Trophy.
Would you give him "q" call?



Thank you.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Description of 3loop from picture - I used take-off arc position VERSUS landing moment.

I know, and it's no different there. Like I already said, he is landing at least 7/8 of a turn around the circle. The jump was less than 1/4 short, look at your own pictures. If the jump was 1/4 short in relation to the entry angle, his blade would be directly pointing at the side board of the rink when it lands. The blade is clearly not landing at that angle, it's pointing diagonally, he lands past the 1/4 mark.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

Thank you for explanation! You are Technical specialist, aren't you?

Thank you for 3axel correction, 3.5 rotations of course.

I am not sure that we understand each other - I think there is a mistake in some vocabularies, as I am
not native English speaker.
Speaking about rotation: I don't mean rotations in the air, I count pre-rotation as well. Term "rotation" is used in spins as well, so I never took it as "time in the air" only.
Speaking about take-off arc: I don't mean moment of take-off when blade leaves the ice. I mean arc which is BEFORE pre-rotation starts.

To control my understanding of your post...
When you say that skater does 1/2 turn of pre-rotation, than does 2 and 1/4 rotation in the air, then land.
When I say that skater does 2 and 3/4 rotation (meaning both in the air and pre-rotation) since take-off arc position, then land.
- This jump miss 1/4 of turn. And I believe that we both describe the same situation. Do I understand it well?

Description of 3loop from picture - I used take-off arc position VERSUS landing moment. If you would want moment of take-off when blade leaves the ice VERSUS landing moment, it would be this picture:



In 3loop he goes into the air and does around 2 and 1/4 of rotation, then he lands. So to fully rotated 3loop there is around 1/4 of turn missing in my understanding.

I would like to ask you 3 questions, if you wouldn't mind.
From ISU documents:
Changes and clarifications for Technical Elements for season 2024/25:
- Landed on the quarter (q): Technical panel will indicate this with a sign “q”. The jump will receive full base value and Judges will reduce GOE.
- Less than a quarter missing: No sign will indicate this. The jump will receive full base value and Judges will reduce GOE.

1. It means that landing on less then quarter - missing around 20 or 15 degrees, panel let it go. Right? Only judges will reduce GOE.

2. If situation didn't change, judges see elements in normal speed, there is NO slow motion possibility on their screens. Do you believe that they can be sure that jump is indeed clean OR underrotated up to quarter WITHOUT slow motion? Do they really reduce GOE without having slow motion?

3. Could you please look at Shun Sato's 4lutz in Short Program at NHK Trophy.
Would you give him "q" call?



Thank you.

Thank you, I hadn't even checked this q; I must trust Technical Panels too much!

Would you allow me to post your capture in his Fan Fest? Unless you would repost it yourself of course?

 

[Mathman]

It always seemed to me that the ISU does not want to publicize all this analysis too much.

If they let the cat out of the bag and admitted that a "triple" jump means two-and-a-quarter revolutions in the air and a quad means three-and-a-quarter, that would be bad PR for the sport and would diminish the whole -- WOW HE JUST DID A QUAD --1440 DEGREES IN THE AIR! -- brand.

 

[sisinka]

Thank you, I hadn't even checked this q; I must trust Technical Panels too much!

Would you allow me to post your capture in his Fan Fest? Unless you would repost it yourself of course?

Of course, you can post it there.

 

[sisinka]

It always seemed to me that the ISU does not want to publicize all this analysis too much.

If they let the cat out of the bag and admitted that a "triple" jump means two-and-a-quarter revolutions in the air and a quad means three-and-a-quarter, that would be bad PR for the sport and would diminish the whole -- WOW HE JUST DID A QUAD --1440 DEGREES IN THE AIR! -- brand.

When we were little, we believed in Ježíšek (in your country Santa Claus), that he brings gifts on Christmas Day....when we became older we found that Ježíšek does not exist and our parents are doing the job.
It kind of remind me....triple jump = 3 revolutions....no, just 2.5 revolutions...and by the a little bit over 2.25 revolutions is enough...

But seriously, there are fans of figure skating who prefer to have only basic knowledge - this is jump, this is spin etc. They will not lose time with deeper analysis.

But there are other fans (not small number) who want to understand.

When I read Nathan Chen's book, not even one of his parents were coaches. But because there was lack of people in his team, then his mom did practise schedule for him. And dad did maths - counting the base value of elements to find out the highest score possible. It was great to see that parents helped. Yes, thanks to lack of education and experience the family was making mistakes in some of decisions (even going against coach's decision). But overall their work was one of stone of success of Nathan Chen.

So yes, deeper analysis are good thing to do. To find out. To educate or be educated. Even to help.