Replay Lounge 2025 Skate America

[DizzyFrenchie]

"Posting blurry gifs, still photos and edited video has no business here. And if you have to sloooooooow down something to a near crawl, which may actually make it worse, you probably shouldn't be commenting either. "

YES to every word in this quote. While it might be fun and entertaining to nitpick every move and criticize the judges vehemently for not having hours and days to look at replays (in slo-motion no less) before they assign points, to use that to project or predict is really harmful. I think the judges have a difficult time because they have to make almost split second decisions unless the infraction is so obvious it can't be missed. But the amateur 'judges' that come in here and act like they know more than the real judges really gets terribly annoying and detracts from the enjoyment of the sport. It seems to me like this year has been the worst for that behavior. Do the judges always get it right? Probably not, but as long as there are humans judging figure skating there will always be detractors and second-guessers.

I'm sorry if you are annoyed but the wrongly disparaging way you express it compels me to go further.
1) This thread is Repray. If you don't like any remark on scoring it's maybe a thread where you might have to scroll down the posts which don't happen to interest you.
2) Agree on every word? The suggestion that the videos have been edited? They clearly have been cut and framed identically, that's all. And they're clear enough for one to see.
3) I rarely can see a jump edge at a normal speed (and not at all angles) but I'm progressing, and I understand that a Technical Panel is able to do it fluently, without slow motion in general. I understand too, that each member of the Technical Panel is assigned to a type of call.
4) Not only have they called a correct if not deep edge, and not called an incorrect edge here; but it's a pattern, and that's the main problem. Officially, scoring claims are prohibited to avoid procedures on small involuntary errors; but when a skater has a chronic error in all competitions, never called by all successive Technical Panels; while another skater doesn't have this chronic error, but has an occasional error of the kind, and is called, I don't call it nitpicking to tell it. And here, the other skater had not even done the error.

 

[Magill]

Discussing calls and scores is not nitpicking. You either want judging to be fair or not, and fair judging means, among other things, correct calls. While mistakes are human, having them called out is a natural course of events. Correcting the mistakes would be more proper response than lamenting them being pointed out. If that's nitpicking, we may just as well go back to the 6.0 system and leave out any pretence of objectivity at all.

 

[Isk]

There's also the perception brought by scoring. Our perception of Chaeyeon Kim's skate may be lowered by this call on her shallow-edged Triple Flip, while our perception of Alysa Liu's skate may be upped by the absence of call on her wrong-edged one:
https://x.com/pplppIpp/status/1989913595463991785?ref_url=


Chaeyeon Kim is maybe fitter than we think at this stage?

Chaeyeon's looks OK, Alysa's looks slightly outside. Alysa's is prerotated, Chaeyeon's take-off is hidden from view, so it's hard to tell. The approach is fine, this is a flip and not a lutz approach, one can't really interpret Alysa's approach as a lutz approach. But Nikolai Memola does both of them in the same way. The inside edge on the flip approach shouldn't be deep, the skater glides on a very shallow arc, almost a straight line, so it's barely visible. I think it's the gliding arc and where one picks w.r.t. the skating foot that also makes these two jumps different, not just the take-off edge. In 6.0 people were not fixated on these details. Commentators on old videos praise jumps that would nowadays receive immediate wrong edge and UR calls, and only seldom mention that a skater might get a deduction for wrong edge.

 

[TallyT]

This is not rocket science, after all.

Given how many people with a massive amount of knowledge and experience disagree on all sides of the matter, may I suggest that your own advice might be worth taking? And also point out the well-known 'value' of ad hominen resorting such as this and the following post? People are allowed to criticise judging in absolutely everything, including sports far more objectively and reputably run.

 

[Isk]

"Posting blurry gifs, still photos and edited video has no business here. And if you have to sloooooooow down something to a near crawl, which may actually make it worse, you probably shouldn't be commenting either. "

YES to every word in this quote. While it might be fun and entertaining to nitpick every move and criticize the judges vehemently for not having hours and days to look at replays (in slo-motion no less) before they assign points, to use that to project or predict is really harmful. I think the judges have a difficult time because they have to make almost split second decisions unless the infraction is so obvious it can't be missed. But the amateur 'judges' that come in here and act like they know more than the real judges really gets terribly annoying and detracts from the enjoyment of the sport. It seems to me like this year has been the worst for that behavior. Do the judges always get it right? Probably not, but as long as there are humans judging figure skating there will always be detractors and second-guessers.

Sometimes mistakes are obvious, some people make it their passtime to find non-obvious mistakes. I think that's fine, it's part of the process. I did this too. Once I've spent a couple of evenings with the rule book, and a bunch of videos and protocols to figure out how they assign spin levels. I found a couple of mistakes, one pretty gross one, asked other people and they confirmed those were wrong levels. They've changed the rules since then, so... But I have a general idea how they do it, and you can figure out new features when everyone starts doing them. I wouldn't do this for steps though. I can't tell a rocker from a counter in real time, you see. I can do some of them on ice, but can't tell them when I see them, and as far as I understand, TP have to keep track of the steps done on each foot, egde, and direction (forward / backward), so 8 variations of each step and turn. I also don't do it for pairs, I trust the TP to assign levels. But jumps are fairly easy to figure out.

 

[TallyT]

Meanwhile and on a more cheerful if puzzled and less than expert note, can I just note that I received more reactions (likes, laughs, smilies etc) for this competition than any other I have watched and commented on live... but for some reason the numbers went up the more my positivity attempts went downhill. It almost seems the audience here prefer the grumbles to glee...

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

Chaeyeon's looks OK, Alysa's looks slightly outside. Alysa's is prerotated, Chaeyeon's take-off is hidden from view, so it's hard to tell. The approach is fine, this is a flip and not a lutz approach, one can't really interpret Alysa's approach as a lutz approach. But Nikolai Memola does both of them in the same way. The inside edge on the flip approach shouldn't be deep, the skater glides on a very shallow arc, almost a straight line, so it's barely visible. I think it's the gliding arc and where one picks w.r.t. the skating foot that also makes these two jumps different, not just the take-off edge. In 6.0 people were not fixated on these details. Commentators on old videos praise jumps that would nowadays receive immediate wrong edge and UR calls, and only seldom mention that a skater might get a deduction for wrong edge.

Thank you! Yes, it's through the arc that I believe, commentators see at normal speed if there's a wrong edge, but I'm still unable to catch it.

 

[Mathman]

The inside edge on the flip approach shouldn't be deep, the skater glides on a very shallow arc, almost a straight line, so it's barely visible. I think it's the gliding arc and where one picks w.r.t. the skating foot that also makes these two jumps different, not just the take-off edge.

I agree with this observation. To me, the most important feature of a Lutz is the approach, where the counter-rotation is put on ostentatious display and held. A "wrong edge" means that the skater released the counter-rrotation arc prematurely by rocking over onto the edge that is curving in the same direction as the rotations in the air-- or onto the flat in the case of a ! call.

I never did like the newer short approach technique -- you call that a Lutz?

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I cut a lot about your text because I only want to discuss what is happening at SKAM. No need to bring up the entire history of American pairs on here or even ice dance. The observation I made is that all 3 US teams have had issues in the SP on the same elements, and it seems to be a recurring problem. Does it happen to other teams ? Yes it does. But yesterday, it was striking to see it happen not to one, nor two but all three American teams. There is no denying that really.

And, the U.S. teams ended up having some of the better overall performances at Skate America, despite the scoring placements, and despite none of the U.S. teams making the podium. LOL! Ice is slippery and perceptions by fans and commentators, alike, widely vary. I will continue to share my opinions regarding pairs, generally, and to advocate for a more thoughtful and accurate assessment of the U.S. pairs discipline.

GP Replay Lounge threads allow for wider-ranging conversations beyond solely what happened at the individual GP event.

 

[4everchan]

And, the U.S. teams ended up having some of the better overall performances at Skate America, despite the scoring placements, and despite none of the U.S. teams making the podium. LOL! Ice is slippery and perceptions by fans and commentators, alike, widely vary. I will continue to share my opinions regarding pairs, generally, and to advocate for a more thoughtful and accurate assessment of the U.S. pairs discipline.

GP Replay Lounge threads allow for wider-ranging conversations beyond solely what happened at the individual GP event.

The whole pair LP event was a disaster except for the Canadians and the Japanese. That's what I think anyway.

 

[4everchan]

Regarding SKAM's lack of depth : considering Finland 's Field, it seems to have been just bad timing.

 

[TallyT]

Regarding SKAM's lack of depth : considering Finland 's Field, it seems to have been just bad timing.

Finland seems to be promising better all round and from the previous competitions I have seen done there, I have hopes of better organisation as well.

(And maybe even scenery as pretty? Lake Placid did make me rather want to book immediate travel from my decidedly it-should-be-spring-but-it's-miserable-dammit home...)

 

[sisinka]

Stepping on long skirt may lead to fall:
Federica Faiella & Masimo Scali - https://youtu.be/miM4rutQ_NE?t=180 and

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Ekaterina Bobrova & Dmitri Soloviev - https://youtu.be/RgUldJ1LxmM?t=241
Kate & Daniel - https://youtu.be/XnMN-2PuBUM?t=321 ,

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How about danger?

When skirt is long and may create troubles, ladies spent a lot of time training how to work with the skirt. Even in these cases an accident may happen.
BUT how about long SKIRT where lenght or pattern lead to REPEATEDLY DANGEROUS SITUATIONS?

Based on Google and ISU rules:
"At any time if the referee feels there is a health or safety concern, they may blow the whistle to signal to the skater(s) to stop skating and resolve the situation."
...for example untied lace, a piece of a costume or prop falling on the ice, or obstacles on the ice...

The referee stops the skater BEFORE an accident happens. To PREVENT from accident.

I am sure @lariko knows what I am writing about...Kate & Daniel Mrazeks Free Dance.

Kate's fall came in Choreographic Step Sequence in America, she had skirt under her knees while sliding, if it was the reason of the fall, OR if she just lost balance thanks to something else...it is not clear.

In Choregraphic Spinning Movement Kate‘s skirt is visibly caught on blade for the whole element. Stepping on blade would lead to fall.

But there was another element in Kate & Daniel's Free Dance which became dangerous thanks to skirt.

Doing Rotational Lift Daniel had Kate‘s skirt over his face for 2 rotations – he had absolutely no vision control thanks to skirt...this is dangerous. Without eye control keeping the balance is much more difficult. Reactions becomes slower without vision. The lifting partner has only up to 8 seconds for 6 rotations on the ice, some time is lost in Entry Feature, so the speed of rotations must be fast. With skirt causing “blidness“ of lifting partner – the lift becomes much more fall prone and injury prone.



At Skate Canada two weeks back the same problem in two elements. The same danger. In Stationary Lift – Daniel‘s face was covered with skirt in the beginning. During Rotational Lift – Daniel‘s face was covered for 2 rotations as well.



Skate America broadcasted practises, skirt was once again on her blade in Choreo Spinning Movement, Daniel had skirt over face in the beginning of the Stationary Lift. They didn't go for RoLi during program run-through.

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I think we can't take this as in exception, when it happened more times in both Rotational and Stationary Lift.

Is THIS long skirt and situations happening thanks to it one of "safety concerns"? Costume failure? I think so.

More people here and there worry that this lenght and pattern of skirt will cause more serious troubles. This time the worries are even more serious thanks to not only catching blade, but also worsening conditions for balancing difficult lifts.

If Kate wishes to have long skirt, let it be. But make it more safe using better lenght and shape.

One great person pointed me out to watch Skating Session podcast with Tony Wheeler & Thomas Vu (aroubd 1 hour and 9 minutes). They talk about the accident in RoLi in Kate & Daniel's Free Skate. Tony mentions that he asked Matteo Zanni, how many times it happened at practise. Answer was never.

They also mentions Kate & Daniel's previous troubles with too long skirt in past (stepping on skirt during Rhythm Dance at JGP Egna 2022, both of them falling during Rhythm Dance at JGP Final 2022 thanks to skirt...after this the skirt was cut).

What are the possibilities?

The couple probably cannot be stopped during program, as the problem of skirt cannot be solved in such short time (in comparison with laces or something on the ice).

Is it possible to make a wish for less dangerous skirt after the skate? Or request? From ISU members? From Federations? From coaching team, or other coaching teams?

Or are we all spectators only? And we all have to wait until another troubles or falls happen and somebody from the team will decide that skirt must be adjusted?

I would like to mention that in case of inappropriate costume the couples are warned to change it. Immediately. But in case of skirt leading to danger in lifts....we have to wait? Does it give sense?

I will send link to this post to Matteo Zanni and ask him to make corrections of skirt from healthy reason. I believe that more people were concerned and contacted team, not only Tony Wheeler.

 

[lariko]

Stepping on long skirt may lead to fall:
Federica Faiella & Masimo Scali - https://youtu.be/miM4rutQ_NE?t=180 and

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

youtu.be

Ekaterina Bobrova & Dmitri Soloviev - https://youtu.be/RgUldJ1LxmM?t=241
Kate & Daniel - https://youtu.be/XnMN-2PuBUM?t=321 ,

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

youtu.be

How about danger?

When skirt is long and may create troubles, ladies spent a lot of time training how to work with the skirt. Even in these cases an accident may happen.
BUT how about long SKIRT where lenght or pattern lead to REPEATEDLY DANGEROUS SITUATIONS?

Based on Google and ISU rules:
"At any time if the referee feels there is a health or safety concern, they may blow the whistle to signal to the skater(s) to stop skating and resolve the situation."
...for example untied lace, a piece of a costume or prop falling on the ice, or obstacles on the ice...

The referee stops the skater BEFORE an accident happens. To PREVENT from accident.

I am sure @lariko knows what I am writing about...Kate & Daniel Mrazeks Free Dance.

Kate's fall came in Choreographic Step Sequence in America, she had skirt under her knees while sliding, if it was the reason of the fall, OR if she just lost balance thanks to something else...it is not clear.

In Choregraphic Spinning Movement Kate‘s skirt is visibly caught on blade for the whole element. Stepping on blade would lead to fall.

But there was another element in Kate & Daniel's Free Dance which became dangerous thanks to skirt.

Doing Rotational Lift Daniel had Kate‘s skirt over his face for 2 rotations – he had absolutely no vision control thanks to skirt...this is dangerous. Without eye control keeping the balance is much more difficult. Reactions becomes slower without vision. The lifting partner has only up to 8 seconds for 6 rotations on the ice, some time is lost in Entry Feature, so the speed of rotations must be fast. With skirt causing “blidness“ of lifting partner – the lift becomes much more fall prone and injury prone.



At Skate Canada two weeks back the same problem in two elements. The same danger. In Stationary Lift – Daniel‘s face was covered with skirt in the beginning. During Rotational Lift – Daniel‘s face was covered for 2 rotations as well.



Skate America broadcasted practises, skirt was once again on her blade in Choreo Spinning Movement, Daniel had skirt over face in the beginning of the Stationary Lift. They didn't go for RoLi during program run-through.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

youtu.be

I think we can't take this as in exception, when it happened more times in both Rotational and Stationary Lift.

Is THIS long skirt and situations happening thanks to it one of "safety concerns"? Costume failure? I think so.

More people here and there worry that this lenght and pattern of skirt will cause more serious troubles. This time the worries are even more serious thanks to not only catching blade, but also worsening conditions for balancing difficult lifts.

If Kate wishes to have long skirt, let it be. But make it more safe using better lenght and shape.

One great person pointed me out to watch Skating Session podcast with Tony Wheeler & Thomas Vu (aroubd 1 hour and 9 minutes). They talk about the accident in RoLi in Kate & Daniel's Free Skate. Tony mentions that he asked Matteo Zanni, how many times it happened at practise. Answer was never.

They also mentions Kate & Daniel's previous troubles with too long skirt in past (stepping on skirt during Rhythm Dance at JGP Egna 2022, both of them falling during Rhythm Dance at JGP Final 2022 thanks to skirt...after this the skirt was cut).

What are the possibilities?

The couple probably cannot be stopped during program, as the problem of skirt cannot be solved in such short time (in comparison with laces or something on the ice).

Is it possible to make a wish for less dangerous skirt after the skate? Or request? From ISU members? From Federations? From coaching team, or other coaching teams?

Or are we all spectators only? And we all have to wait until another troubles or falls happen and somebody from the team will decide that skirt must be adjusted?

I would like to mention that in case of inappropriate costume the couples are warned to change it. Immediately. But in case of skirt leading to danger in lifts....we have to wait? Does it give sense?

I will send link to this post to Matteo Zanni and ask him to make corrections of skirt from healthy reason. I believe that more people were concerned and contacted team, not only Tony Wheeler.

I am not sure who should tell them that they have to change the costume, but they had consistent feedback from the judges that this is a bad idea. I sat through every practice in Skate Canada, and there was more falls and near misses there, not to mention Daniel's lack of visibility or how close he is to losing hold of Katherine on multiple elements. I agree that this costuming aside from its very questionable aestetics should be deemed unsafe for skating. They have rules against too revealing costumes, they sure should have rule against attire that can get under the blade. The referees would stop a skate if a boot strap on a man's pants comes undone and can get under the blade. That skirt can and did get under the blade. I hope that at this point the team is aware that not only they had flushed their grand prix season down the drain, but they also risk their health for no reason. They are already one of the most impressive, bright, memorable teams on ice. They don't need this risk to attract attention.

 

[lariko]

Regarding SKAM's lack of depth : considering Finland 's Field, it seems to have been just bad timing.

When the pool is deep enough, there is no bad timing, because enough skaters line up for each spot. It's JGP where everyone can go and compete. GP is supposed to be at least 9 strong competitors in each stage. That's how these series are sold. I mean, imagine I would have bought a ticket for this weak sauce stage while the all-included tickets are sold. Already, we were duped and shortchanged versus normal expectations by Skate Canada as there was no gala (with Malinin! With Hase/Volodin!). If we spent money to travel and attend in the States... lol. Not good. If this continues you can't even buy tickets any longer until full composition is announced. No excuses and hand waving could mask the truth -- without AIN they don't have enough strong competitors neither in juniors nor in seniors. And i say this as I am watching junior pairs in Omsk.

 

[Mathman]

About the "crowd reaction" when Alysa Liu's winning score was announced in the free skate. I think the difference in perception might be due to a time gap between when the lTV audience saw the marks and when the skaters and live audience did. Watching Alysa in the kiss and cry, it seemed like when the scores came up on the TV screen Alysa was still staring up waiting patiently without emotion for several seconds. Finally the scores were shown in the area and everyone had a big celebration.

Did anyone else have this impression?

 

[Mathman]

...
When skirt is long and may create troubles, ladies spent a lot of time training how to work with the skirt. Even in these cases an accident may happen.

Some of these skirts also give the impression of heaviness. I don't know what material they are made from, but "working a heavy skirt" is an art all by itself. Better for the skater to be free to concentrate on skating.

 

[4everchan]

By now, I'm sure the mrazeks are very aware that the skirt is an issue. I don't think people need to write to them... They know. So either they stubbornly want to make it work or something else is being made.

 

[4everchan]

When the pool is deep enough, there is no bad timing, because enough skaters line up for each spot. It's JGP where everyone can go and compete. GP is supposed to be at least 9 strong competitors in each stage. That's how these series are sold. I mean, imagine I would have bought a ticket for this weak sauce stage while the all-included tickets are sold. Already, we were duped and shortchanged versus normal expectations by Skate Canada as there was no gala (with Malinin! With Hase/Volodin!). If we spent money to travel and attend in the States... lol. Not good. If this continues you can't even buy tickets any longer until full composition is announced. No excuses and hand waving could mask the truth -- without AIN they don't have enough strong competitors neither in juniors nor in seniors. And i say this as I am watching junior pairs in Omsk.

Enjoy !

Not sure you need their return if you still get to see them. You get best of both worlds

 

[Arigato]

Given how many people disagree on all sides of the matter

5,000 people could disagree and it's still irrelevant. Moving on.