Replay Lounge 2025 Skate Canada

[Marius]

I think Piper and Paul in this competition threw away their (very minimal already) chances at Oly GM. That said, I was a little bit disappointed about their FD: Vincent is one of my favorites FDs ever, but here their skate was kinda tentative... they looked much slower than in 2019 or is it just my impression? That said I hope the program grows over the year because, skated at its best, it is still a gorgeously choreographed program.
R/A are very much overscored this season, their RD is cool, but the FD? It seems like a scrapped program from Lopareva/Brissaud (which would have skated it better IMO). L/L's programs are disappointing, the RD in particular, but also the FD... it doesn't show any growth in comparison to the previous seasons. They are so fast and it was pretty evident in the RD, competing after R/A and before C/P and G/P, but the speed they carry tend to make them do mistakes or to be imprecise on their edges, and again, the programs IMO aren't helping. C/P's RD was a hard watch, they really looked slow; their FD is much better but it is nothing exciting. L/Q's FD was once again gorgeous and the highlight of the event for me ( their RD doesn't show anything they're capable of).

 

[lariko]

What interests me most about Malinin though is Russia can produce bewildering female talent but none of their men are anywhere close to Malinin or even other international skaters, despite Malinin being genetically fully Russian also... something very special about him.

Most Russian men start to train earlier and show results earlier than Malinin. He didn't really train till around seven according to his parents which according to Gleihausen is too late to start. Partially, he is right, because Malinin didn’t develop the glide like the male skaters who started from age 2 or 3. He also didn't have as much of a growth spurt as other jumping prodigies so he maybe didn't have to diet as hard trying to control his height during the active growth window. Plus, i don't know of anyone who is 3rd generation figure skater in male line with both parents being single skaters, I.e. already small framed. Add to it the fact that his parents manage his talent, teaching him to listen to his body, while Russians exploit and overtrain their men and women, pushing for early results and teach them to override the feedback from their bodies. Russian women in their 20s are no different than international. Everything there is focused on a fast, short, explosive career. Malinin also wasn't significantly under height in childhood as so many Russian male skaters are, so he didn’t have to contend with the mega growth spurt through his mid to late teens that clobbers all those 'tiniest boy on skates' in Russia with their joints being destroyed when they add a few feet really fast, while still jumping huge load in hopes that some of them would develop stronger bones thanks to microfracturing and absence of fear. Not to mention, so many Russians have to leave hometowns in early teens to go train across the country and often leave their parents behind, living with relatives, etc, in giant unfamiliar cities for the sake of skating, spending more time with coaches than family.

In the end of the day, Malinin was born to skate, and skate he does with a cool head.

 

[Isk]

One of the several reasons why I pay very little attention to the singles events anymore.

I often don't look at replays and don't know the final placements after an event, I just don't pay attention to marks any more, only to programs.

I know what I am going to say is very unpopular here and Ilia fans are going to hate it but, yes, like it or not, after what happened with Kamila in the last Olympics, many people got burnt and learnt to stay away from any new extra jumper fan wagon, genetics or not.
Personally I see Ilia Malinin as a male equivalent to Eteri girls in many ways, with the difference that they were much much better overall skaters and much more pleasant to watch. But the philosophy is just the same. Longevity? Well, this is an obvious gender benefit as being male makes it easier to keep the jumps longer. Skating skills, presentation, interpretation? Who cares. Yes, I can see he's better than he used to be but he's still very mediocre in all these aspects, no matter how much we would like to watch with rose-tinted glasses, and his being just 2 PCS points away from guys like Yuma or Jason makes it a joke. And, no, a randomly packed together bunch of quotes does not make him more "artistic".
Plus one thing that is rarely being mentioned is the big fed politics. With all his jumps, I am pretty sure that if he came from a small federation he would get much lower PCSs, which would be much more appropriate to what he shows on ice, and much more scrutiny even on his jumps (look at Shaidorov and the way he is treated by the judges). In the end of the day, he would mostly win anyway but would never get the scores he gets, which would be more fair both to him and to all the other skaters, and better for the sport as such. And it would probably be seen as way less problematic and controversial even by non-fans, leaving him better accepted and, in the end of the day. better liked. But he would not be unbeatable. Because what makes him currently unbeatable is not just his TES but his TES combined with the undeserved PCS shower and the "look at the artistic heights" PR coming not from his camp (which would be understandable) but from the ISU itself which makes it, well, laughable.

When Stephane Lambiel said ironically in an interview published just a few hours ago that the problem with music copyrights in FS will soon get solved as figure skating will not require music any more, I think it is obvious what - and who - he had in mind. You do not really need music for jumping contests, other than elevator music. Just the same as when he kept repeating that we should bring back beauty and musicality to the sport, as this is an aesthetic sport and it cannot stay interesting for the audiences without beauty. He also admitted that if he was introduced to figure skating the way it is now, he would never get interested or involved. Maybe someone should start listening as it is not just a random fan speaking but a 2xWC and 1xOSM and honestly, I would rather see more Lambiels than more Malinins in the sport while the path it is on leads exactly in the opposite direction.

Why do you think that Ilia's camp is not connected to the ISU? His agent is Ari Zacharian, he is quite influential in the ISU. It was thanks to his efforts that the figure skating Oscar was introduced. It made no sense, so it tanked. But keep in mind that Ari and Ilia's parents come from the same system, Shaidorov is its product too. The system was banished but its legacy survives and has sprouts in smaller federations. For the sake of fairness it must be mentioned that the holes get filled, now there is a push from the US fed to promote Alysa, and from AIM to squeeze out Italians. Poor Lambiel, not a good time for him to be a coach and he is not getting younger either. I am almost sure that many copyright issues would be solved by banning lyrics. Its the ones who swim in money that care about copyright. Classical musicians live a different life, always have. Some that I know give concerts for free or for little and get a bit of extra remuneration privately from supporters. Some would be grateful for an opportunity to perform and a little time off teaching duties, which is also their main source of income, to compose and prepare for concerts, which makes me think they would be happy to let their music be used in exchange for promotion and acknowledgement. They have neither time nor money to pay lawyers for copyright lawsuits. Of course dead composers will not rise from the graves, but enemies of their heirs beware, they didn't write any music but will fight for royalties. The same goes for choreagraphers: their work is underestimated. Sometimes I go to wiki to find out who choreographed a program, and more often than not choreographers are not even mentioned. Brian Orser said in an interview that when Yuna won the Olympics he was a hero, but despite Orser's efforts to draw attention to her choreographer, nobody paid attention to David Wilson. Eventually Yuna's win helped him, but he didn't share in her success and felt very underappreciated.

 

[4everchan]

I wanted to wait to comment on the actual program, rather than this specific performance, until l'd had a chance to watch it again without the unwelcome surprise of the miss on the lift (and kudos to them to be able to salvage that at all, by the way).

And I concur with the above. I was not sure about them returning to Vincent, but they have completely redone the program and it's new and fresh. There's lots of great choreography, all timed beautifully with the music.

Best costumes of the season, hands down, especially her gorgeous dress. I hope she does not change it out for the Olympics.

It is my favourite choreography of the top teams and I think it will really create a moment. Of course there's some things to work on, even aside from the lift. In particular, I think they could do more with their choreo step sequence....they scored OK on it, but not fantastic and I think they can do better. Their final double-barrelled lift was polarizing with the panel, one judge gave them a 5, another a 0, lol. Talk about mixed messages. I think I'd maybe look at changing her position in the rotational part of the lift; I love the stationary position, but he needs to look at trying to up the speed of his rotation in it. So I hope they continue to refine.

They managed to weave a spell even with the error.

I watched it on TV... and yes... it was so much better than on streaming already. I agree very much with your last two points :

The turtle lift is too slow.... So they need to rethink all three lifts. Well, the curve lift, just needs to work out next time... but the last two lifts : should they be split up ? Is there a way to go from the rotational to the turtle lift much smoother so that speed is not lost ? I was afraid that they would lost the stationary (turtle) lift because it took a while to stabilize it.

So yes, this needs work but it's promising.

And yes, what does matter is that they are creating the aura needed for the music and program chosen, with their skating and choreography.

I will say something that may not be popular though : I find that Piper and Paul pay for their mistakes very very much (not talking about the curve lift but other mistakes)... while other teams get away with theirs. The GOE of the last lift is a good example of that. Who in the world, would get 0 for that lift, even if it's not perfect ? I won't name anyone but I saw a very terrible lift at GPF and its GOE was all 4s and 5s. It wasn't less awkward than Piper and Paul's, perhaps even worse. I find this very disturbing to be honest.
YMMV

 

[demarinis5]

^^ Agree

 

[sworddance21]

Ilia's free program reminds me of angsty undergraduate contemporary dance student choreography He's very committed to it, and I'll give him credit for that. I saw a post yesterday where the person shared a gorgeous step sequence of Nathan's from the Philip Glass program and lamented how he's missed, implying he is SO much better than Ilia. I remember when people were lambasting Nathan for being a jumper who couldn't skate.

I am a HUGE fan of skaters with exquisite skating skills - Jason is my absolute favorite - but IMHO we have to acknowledge that Ilia is a jumping prodigy and he is working on the other skills. I applaud him for that. There is no reason he can't show the same kind of PCS growth that Nathan showed throughout his career. I don't expect him to ever have anywhere near the technical skating skill of Jason, but I also see that he's working on it and there IS growth.

 

[throw_triple_flip]

My highlights from the men's competition were Selevko's flamboyance, Aymoz screeching at a judge and smiling despite the issues with the free. Kao Miura looked like a completely different skater from two weeks ago.

Great score for Mone Chiba. If she can get those jumps fully rotated then she is a huge threat for the Olympic title. Her skating skills are just stunning. Lara Naki Gutmann as a shark/the sea is the coolest women's program of the season.
I felt so bad for Sara Maude Dupuis. Looked like she just couldn't get her timing right in the free. Shame as I think both her programs are really good.

 

[sworddance21]

My highlights from the men's competition were Selevko's flamboyance, Aymoz screeching at a judge and smiling despite the issues with the free. Kao Miura looked like a completely different skater from two weeks ago.

I was SO happy to see that Kevin was in good spirits after that free.

 

[ManyCairns]

I think Piper and Paul in this competition threw away their (very minimal already) chances at Oly GM. That said, I was a little bit disappointed about their FD: Vincent is one of my favorites FDs ever, but here their skate was kinda tentative... they looked much slower than in 2019 or is it just my impression? That said I hope the program grows over the year because, skated at its best, it is still a gorgeously choreographed program.
R/A are very much overscored this season, their RD is cool, but the FD? It seems like a scrapped program from Lopareva/Brissaud (which would have skated it better IMO). L/L's programs are disappointing, the RD in particular, but also the FD... it doesn't show any growth in comparison to the previous seasons. They are so fast and it was pretty evident in the RD, competing after R/A and before C/P and G/P, but the speed they carry tend to make them do mistakes or to be imprecise on their edges, and again, the programs IMO aren't helping. C/P's RD was a hard watch, they really looked slow; their FD is much better but it is nothing exciting. L/Q's FD was once again gorgeous and the highlight of the event for me ( their RD doesn't show anything they're capable of).

I love what Piper and Paul are doing with both their dances and think they are absolutely still in contention for a medal -- without the major lift error, the score would of course have been higher, and I do think they will grow the Vincent program as the season goes on, and hopefully momentum will be on their side. I also liked what LaLa put out there, and think they will improve.

Otherwise, I strongly agree with your impressions! re: C/Pom and R/A especially.

 

[Isk]

Ilia's free program reminds me of angsty undergraduate contemporary dance student choreography He's very committed to it, and I'll give him credit for that. I saw a post yesterday where the person shared a gorgeous step sequence of Nathan's from the Philip Glass program and lamented how he's missed, implying he is SO much better than Ilia. I remember when people were lambasting Nathan for being a jumper who couldn't skate.

I am a HUGE fan of skaters with exquisite skating skills - Jason is my absolute favorite - but IMHO we have to acknowledge that Ilia is a jumping prodigy and he is working on the other skills. I applaud him for that. There is no reason he can't show the same kind of PCS growth that Nathan showed throughout his career. I don't expect him to ever have anywhere near the technical skating skill of Jason, but I also see that he's working on it and there IS growth.

Unfortunately Ilia already receives mostly 9s for components, so there is no reason to work on them. But he can't be like Nathan, this would require renting a time machine, going back to childhood and taking ballet classes. This kind of skill can't be acquired at his age. Ilia was forgiven a few URs and q's. He'll probably clean them up later in the season, but the fact is they were not called and he got a lot of points for free. He also does changes of edge between jumps in combos, this is necessary when there is not enough speed out of the first jump, so the Israeli woman gets negative GOE for this and he doesn't. It seems that the judges and TP already preventively decided that he is untouchable. Of course when people agree to mark poor quality jumps like good quality jumps there is nothing to do but applaud. I also remembered what his SP costume reminds me: Yuzuru's 2011-2012 costume to R&J no.1.

 

[sworddance21]

But he can't be like Nathan, this would require renting a time machine, going back to childhood and taking ballet classes. This kind of skill can't be acquired at his age.

I am not a skater - only a fan - so I can't comment on jumping technique and I can't speak to judging. I have been a dancer and a dance teacher my whole life so I do want to comment on your statement above. I disagree completely. There is a great deal of improvement Ilia can make in that regard - particularly with port de bras. And truthfully, in the dance world it is not uncommon for young dancers to be tech driven and develop artistry as they grow up. I'm not expecting Ilia to be Jason or Shoma, but I'm not completely discounting his ability to grow in that regard. Do I wish the judges marked him more fairly in PCS - yes. But he's not the only one that gets high PCS depending on how he jumps.

 

[Isk]

I am not a skater - only a fan - so I can't comment on jumping technique and I can't speak to judging. I have been a dancer and a dance teacher my whole life so I do want to comment on your statement above. I disagree completely. There is a great deal of improvement Ilia can make in that regard - particularly with port de bras. And truthfully, in the dance world it is not uncommon for young dancers to be tech driven and develop artistry as they grow up. I'm not expecting Ilia to be Jason or Shoma, but I'm not completely discounting his ability to grow in that regard. Do I wish the judges marked him more fairly in PCS - yes. But he's not the only one that gets high PCS depending on how he jumps.

He is not the only one, a whole generation of skaters are looking at his scores and their own, getting the message and following this model. He can improve, but there is only so much one can achieve at his age. It's not about artistry that comes with maturity and life experience. It's about skill that is acquired at a young age. He is not going to get the ballet basics to the degree Nathan had them or skate like Japanese. He doesn't seem to need to, he is already scored better than they are, but if the wind starts blowing the other direction and he gets UR calls and more fair GOE and PCS, I don't know... Nobody seems to question if he can retain his jumping ability for another cycle, but it's also not a given. Of course he might retire after this season if he wins OG, and this will all be history. I don't believe he said anything about his plans beyond this season?

 

[rabidline]

It's about skill that is acquired at a young age. He is not going to get the ballet basics to the degree Nathan had them or skate like Japanese.

On the other hand, neither Nathan nor the Japanese were able to land a quadruple axel, and they aren't able to attempt 7-quad FS programs.

The thing is, the sport has seen ballet basics integrated in figure skating in the past. Nathan had it but there were many examples that do it better in the past, enabled by a different era. We also have seen better display of skating skills in the past, both before the Japanese style came into prominence and popularity among audience, and after.

We, and the people in the sport, have never seen a quadruple axel landed, in a SP or FS, by a man or woman. We have never seen any attempts for a 3-quad SP and a 7-quad FS, by a man or woman. And then Ilia did it, and kept doing it. This is incomprehensible and inexplicable. Hence it makes perfect sense to me that no one who already is following the sport knows what to do. If anything, the sport waited for almost 2 years since Ilia turned senior and first landed the 4A (along with all the other quads) to finally give in to Ilia's hype, determination to improve, and consistency, and it took a crazy ass world record breaking skate in Worlds 2024.

In comparison, I love Kaori with all my heart, but she definitely didn't have ballet basics nor does she has a sound and consistent lutz edge and non-prerotated take off technique. Her artistry is mostly about her skating skills (which is amazing) but posture? Carriage? Definition of upper body and arms? Intentionality of movement? Ilia isn't that much worse than her, and she has had several years head start in her career.

 

[rabidline]

He is not the only one, a whole generation of skaters are looking at his scores and their own, getting the message and following this model.

This message didn't start with Ilia and it will certainly not end with him. If anything, Ilia got the message loud and clear when he was younger, therefore we are where we are right now.

 

[Isk]

This message didn't start with Ilia and it will certainly not end with him. If anything, Ilia got the message loud and clear when he was younger, therefore we are where we are right now.

Please don't make it sound like I am Nathan's or Kaori's fan. I never was actually, Nathan's approach to skating is not close to me, and I can see Kaori's deficiencies. It's just people liken Ilia with Nathan, or Ilia with Toller Cranston, and I am pointing out the differences. I don't really have favourites nowadays. OK, let's think about it. The message became loud and clear in 2017, when Yuzuru landed 4L in a clean (sort of) 4-quad LP, and a season earlier he set the standard to 2-quad SP. If you think about it, a rare person could do a FP with 2 quads (in which case they did 7 jumps instead of 8, among which 1 or 2 combos), and a 1-quad SP pre-IJS and it already negatively affected the skating quality. One quad in the SP and one quad front-loaded FP was enough to win in 2004, and it was not a good program. But skating itself was much simpler: steps, spins, transitions. In early IJS days men singles went back to quad-less WC and OG winners. Joubert on a good day could do a 3-quad FP program, but he was never showered with the 2nd mark and GOE to the extent that quad-less skaters couldn't compete with him. What I am saying is that between late 6.0/early IJS and 2017 the progress was immense both in jumps and skating, it shouldn't be underestimated. Remember, those were 8-jump 4.5-minute backloaded programs, in which something+2A+2A had 0.8 of base value, and people had to do actual combos to score more points. I remember Yuzuru in his junior days, in his mid-senior days and in the season 2015-2016, and component-wise these are different Yuzurus. Same with Javier. If we look at Ilia's career, it's +/- the same Ilia throughout but with a different components score. Do you think he or anybody else will be able to do quints any time soon, to keep up the excitement and maintain TES driven PCS inflation? So far we haven't seen a 4A from Ilia this season, and haven't seen it nice and clean from anyone else. Now he will retire and we will remain with crooked quad contests. Maybe it's not their fault, but I think that his, Shaidorov's, and whoever's PCS and GOE over-scoring is hurting the sport and brewing a new scandal. What are they going to do if it happens: come up with yet another code of points?

 

[rabidline]

If we look at Ilia's career, it's +/- the same Ilia throughout but with a different components score.

Well then I have to agree to disagree because Ilia in 2021-2022 is very different from the Ilia now in 2024-2025. And he's growing with every competition.

Like you said, in early IJS men's singles went back to quad-less WC and OG winners. And IMO, in 2015-2017, men's singles were introduced to the concept of men landing 4Lz consistently and the ratification of the first 4F and 4Lo. This wasn't a thing before that, similar as the reality of a 4A being real and landed not being a thing before Ilia did it in 2022. 2 years to adjust- and then we have Nathan dominating because he showed he can do it all and not land on his ass in his programs, unlike most of the other men.

We don't know what will happen next. Maybe Ilia won't even need to land a 4A at the Olympic Games and still win it. Maybe Ilia won't lose his quads until he's 27. Maybe we will see other genetically blessed teenagers who can land 4As and quints. Maybe it will all blow up in the men's faces and we will return to quadless World Champions and OGMs. But that's been the pattern for men's skating: the King sets the tone. Now, the one at the top is the Quad God and everyone is measured up to him. Unless someone with better skating skills start doing 2-quad SP and 4-5 quad FS consistently (yes looking at you Yuma) there's no other measure yet.

And I think that's what is bothering everyone- right now there is no other man who can throw down the gauntlet, saying, "I can't do the 4A, but here's my clean quads that's not the 4S and 4T and my superior skating skills with deep knee bends. Also, I'm a compelling performer with enjoyable programs!" I want to believe Yuma is this, and hopefully he will deliver this season.

 

[Isk]

Well then I have to agree to disagree because Ilia in 2021-2022 is very different from the Ilia now in 2024-2025. And he's growing with every competition.

Like you said, in early IJS men's singles went back to quad-less WC and OG winners. And IMO, in 2015-2017, men's singles were introduced to the concept of men landing 4Lz consistently and the ratification of the first 4F and 4Lo. This wasn't a thing before that, similar as the reality of a 4A being real and landed not being a thing before Ilia did it in 2022. 2 years to adjust- and then we have Nathan dominating because he showed he can do it all and not land on his ass in his programs, unlike most of the other men.

We don't know what will happen next. Maybe Ilia won't even need to land a 4A at the Olympic Games and still win it. Maybe Ilia won't lose his quads until he's 27. Maybe we will see other genetically blessed teenagers who can land 4As and quints. Maybe it will all blow up in the men's faces and we will return to quadless World Champions and OGMs. But that's been the pattern for men's skating: the King sets the tone. Now, the one at the top is the Quad God and everyone is measured up to him. Unless someone with better skating skills start doing 2-quad SP and 4-5 quad FS consistently (yes looking at you Yuma) there's no other measure yet.

And I think that's what is bothering everyone- right now there is no other man who can throw down the gauntlet, saying, "I can't do the 4A, but here's my clean quads that's not the 4S and 4T and my superior skating skills with deep knee bends. Also, I'm a compelling performer with enjoyable programs!" I want to believe Yuma is this, and hopefully he will deliver this season.

But if Ilia doesn't need a 4A to win, we return to Nathan (again not my favourite, but a good jumper), being overall a better skater, and this should be reflected in the marks.

 

[rabidline]

But if Ilia doesn't need a 4A to win, we return to Nathan (again not my favourite, but a good jumper), being overall a better skater, and this should be reflected in the marks.

Yes, but Nathan isn't here... and Nathan's world records are set in different scoring BVs and rules.

Also Ilia does not need 4A to win when the rest of the men is...... like..... that. If anything that's where his score came from, after an evening of splatfests and messy landings, seeing him land multiple difficult quads must have been a relief for everyone: the audience, the technical panel, and the judges.

 

[Blades of Passion]

It's always the same story. The favorites are overmarked and artistry/presentation does not get rewarded as it should be. Ilia's quad Sal and Toe are usually short of rotation but rarely called. So far his overscoring has only mattered at 2023 Worlds, where he should've placed 5th, and since then he's pulled away from the field and looks unlikely to ever falter enough for someone to overtake him. The scores need to reflect what's happening on the ice though. He'll still win everything right now with 7's in PCS and some underrotation calls. But if he does falter and someone does their absolute best, the window needs to be provided for the other person to win. That won't happen when he gets 9's in PCS and +3 GOE at minimum simply for landing a jump, regardless of the spindly technique and lack of flow out.

 

[lariko]

On the other hand, neither Nathan nor the Japanese were able to land a quadruple axel, and they aren't able to attempt 7-quad FS programs.

The thing is, the sport has seen ballet basics integrated in figure skating in the past. Nathan had it but there were many examples that do it better in the past, enabled by a different era. We also have seen better display of skating skills in the past, both before the Japanese style came into prominence and popularity among audience, and after.

We, and the people in the sport, have never seen a quadruple axel landed, in a SP or FS, by a man or woman. We have never seen any attempts for a 3-quad SP and a 7-quad FS, by a man or woman. And then Ilia did it, and kept doing it. This is incomprehensible and inexplicable. Hence it makes perfect sense to me that no one who already is following the sport knows what to do. If anything, the sport waited for almost 2 years since Ilia turned senior and first landed the 4A (along with all the other quads) to finally give in to Ilia's hype, determination to improve, and consistency, and it took a crazy ass world record breaking skate in Worlds 2024.

In comparison, I love Kaori with all my heart, but she definitely didn't have ballet basics nor does she has a sound and consistent lutz edge and non-prerotated take off technique. Her artistry is mostly about her skating skills (which is amazing) but posture? Carriage? Definition of upper body and arms? Intentionality of movement? Ilia isn't that much worse than her, and she has had several years head start in her career.

All that and more applies to Lui as well. Rules don't state that figure skating routines must be a ballet. For ballet competitions, see a number of prestigious international ballet events