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Sorry.................. you can always block the worst babblers (including me!)
59th ISU Congress: Watch and Discuss
- Thread starter gsk8
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When people speak about more balanced skaters, they mean guys like Yuzuru Hanyu or Shoma Uno, not Mozalev. Meaning, having great jumps, quads included, even if not the highest number of them, high TES, even if not the highest TES possible at a given moment, but combined with great everything else, top notch performance, great interpretation, cool moves, excellent musicality and great complex programmes.
Not just for fans, but for many experts and commentators, the best well-rounded skater of last decades, if not in history of the sport, is Yuzuru Hanyu (not Mozalev, sorry). Like it or not, he is also one of the most accomplished in history with all his titles, and no doubt the most popular skater on the planet right now, even after leaving comps behind him.
Just recently -a few weeks ago - he singlehandedly outsold all the currently reigning 2024 world champions together (headed by Ilia Malinin, yes) when one of his solo shows was held on more or less the same date as SOI Japan shows. One was sold through lottery down to the last seat, the other one was undersold., Guess which one was which. Yes, you're right. Yuzuru was sold out. SOI was not.
As much for the power of attracting crowds which is best measured not by polls or posts, but by the old-fashioned selling power.
Out of the current crop, Adam and Yuma seem to give most hope to fans of balanced-skating, as they obviously know what jumps are for and what choreography and everything else is for.
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This is quite true, but I think that Lariko's point was that this is a slight misuse of th word "balance." We don't admire Hanyu because his artistry is on the same level as his tech -- this could be tue of a 6-year-old beginner. We admire Hanyu not because different aspects of his skating are equal to each other, but rather because they are equally good.
Being good is better than being equal. That's why Malinin is praised even though his PCSs do not equal his jump points. That's why Jason Brown has a big and loyal fan base. He is good at what he is good at. Obviously being good at everything is better than being good at some things, not so good at others, but I would use the phrase "uniform excellece" rather than "balance" (which might be good or bad). Mozelem's skating is "balanced" -- average to acceptable in jump[ps, average to acceptable blade skills, average to acceptable in artistry.
I think that this is not just a quibble about word usage. The whole point of this discussion is whether the rules should be changed to favor a better balanced program, or whether it's OK for someone to score so many points on quads that the question of "balance" becomes irrelevant.
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But that's the whole point. Probably "well-rounded" is a better term than "balanced" but I just go with the words as used by the crowd.
Still, we are talking about top skaters. To me the question is if we want them to simply outjump each other or we want a system that requires them to seek excellence in everything. I am for the latter. I am done with watching jumps accompanied by mediocre skating and empty programs. When I want this, I go for ski-jumping., Much bigger heights and much more breathtaking achievements. And much more transparent scoring, BTW.,
When talking about skating, though, I am ready to accept fewer jumps, lower TES, but get a great program I will be going back to instead. Until PCS just go along with TES, such a system will never be achieved BTW.
Still, if you want to compare an average balanced skater with a top jumper, such a comparison is biased at the core. You want to compare? A top jumper is great at jumps. A top balanced skater is great at everything. That's the comparison you are seeking. Compare top jumpers with top balanced skaters, and average jumpers with average balanced skaters. Otherwise, I see it just as a manipulation.
Take away a few jumps from Yuzuru Hanyu - you still have a great skating feast.
Take away a few jumps from Malinin - you are left with a mediocre skater, quite probably losing even to Mozalev.,
Now, which set of skills should be promoted by the scoring system? Cause one of them inevitably will be.
I have no doubts which answer is right.
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I think you're missing why I think what he did was extraordinary. He may never even do it again, himself. Why? It was clean. All 7 jumping passes were clean, of which 6 included a quad. That means all jumps had positive GOE. And I don't mean borderline positive GOE like + 0.36.
I mean good positive GOE:
1. 4A +3.93
2. 4Lz +4.44
3. 4Lo +2.70
4. 4S +2.91
5. 4Lz +1Eu + 3F +4.27
6. 4T+ 3T + 2.17
7. 3Lz+ 3A + SEQ + 1.94
Does that mean I think Ilia is a better skater? Please. I assure you that is not what I am saying. But on that day, and at that time, Ilia did something extraordinary. And it may never happen again. As someone who values quality over quantity, if you think I am making a big deal about what he did because of the mere quantity of quads, think again. It's because he did the quantity WELL. And how well anyone does anything at all, matters to me. It always has. It always will.
I couldn't care less about a quint.
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And in the end, the ISU are not going to go with this single fan or group of fans' opinion or that (unless said fan is a big sponsor or controls NBC, I guess). So we each probably need to wait till 2027 (if we and the sport and the planet are still here
) and see if we like it. If not...But he might! I don't care for him at all myself (and that doesn't really have much to do with his actual skating) but hey, I've been called a Pollyanna all my life...
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And he might not. I'm a realist. If you check his track record, he's not exactly the poster boy for consistency. As for your other comment, I know exactly what you are referring to. But I can still be objective about what I see on the ice and the scoring data that exists. I love the sport.
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To me the quad-dominance situation seems similar to the challenge faced by the ISU in women’s skating in the early 1970s. Janet Lynn and Karen Magnussen were the best free skaters and very popular with fans. Trixie Schuba was most likely the greatest of all time in terms of “tech” – that is, tracing school figures. Schuba, however, was so bad at free skating that (according to Wikipedia) audiences would literally boo her when she performed. But by the scoring rules of the day that didn’t matter at all. At the 1972 Olympics Schuba got 7th in free skating but won the gold medal going away anyway, leaving Magnussen and Lynn to pick up the crumbs with silver and bronze.
The ISU’s solution was to revise the program and scoring rules to let the adored Janet Lynn win something. They diminished the weight given to figures and introduced the short (i.e., “technical”) program which featured a series of required jumps and spins, which Lynn was good at, in addition to looking wholesome, pure and perky while moving to music. Unfortunately for the ISU, their plan backfired. At 1973 Worlds Lynn had the best result in figures in her life but fell twice in the inaugural Short Program and lost to Magnussen, Schuba having retired the previous year. Lynn promptly turned pro, signing a 1.5 million dollar contract with Ice Follies that made her the highest paid woman athlete in the world.
The ISU’s solution was to revise the program and scoring rules to let the adored Janet Lynn win something. They diminished the weight given to figures and introduced the short (i.e., “technical”) program which featured a series of required jumps and spins, which Lynn was good at, in addition to looking wholesome, pure and perky while moving to music. Unfortunately for the ISU, their plan backfired. At 1973 Worlds Lynn had the best result in figures in her life but fell twice in the inaugural Short Program and lost to Magnussen, Schuba having retired the previous year. Lynn promptly turned pro, signing a 1.5 million dollar contract with Ice Follies that made her the highest paid woman athlete in the world.
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Do you realize what you're insinuating as being true?
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Toller Cranston had something to do with the creation of the SP as well.
But the basic argument (and facts) are quite right: The ISU saw that "tech genius", but not popular, skaters were winning, The paying public did not understand. The ISU created an entirely new program to remedy that,
When a skater, any skater, causes an entire new program to be created. That's historic.
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Janet Lynn - Wikipedia
You can also read all about it in Sonia Bianchetti's book Cracked Ice, although Ellen Kestnbaum's book Culture on Ice, though somewhat dated now in its take on feminism, is the most definitive, I think. The book was an outgrowth of Kestnbaum's PhD thesis in Theater at the University of Wisconsin. Bianchetti was the ISU point person in these changes and later ran for ISU president but was hornswoggled by Ottavio Cinquanta and the speedskating side -- and later expelled from the ISU altogether for supporting a rival organization. But her son Fabio Bianchetti is still a bigwig in the ISU.
Interesting factoid: Janet Lynn was coached by Slava Kohout, who married Dick Button around that time (1973). Button later organnised the World Pro competitions (Landover) to showcase Lynn. The Landover events were very successful for a number of years until 1998, when the ISU moved in and basically destroyed pro and "pro-am" skating competitions in 1998. In particular Kristi Yamaguchi refused to participate any more under the new deal. The last winners were Alexei Yagudin and Yuka Sato in 2002.
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Yuzuru Hanyu was way above exceptional at the peak of his career, but his tech lagged behind his PCS on his downslide, so he didn't demonstarte balance since 2019. For Mozalev, tech also backslided, from the lower level, but it also created imbalance. Nathan Chen had opposite trajectory, with tech and PCS matching at his final year and in 2019. One might not like Chen's modern style and commitment to beautiful simplicity, but he legit hit absolutely every PCS bullet for matching artistic intent of his music choices, speed, blade, confident delivery, intergtation of jumps and steps. Uno is not balanced because his tech side lagged behind his PCSs, never being perfect, particulary those sticky landings as cute as they are. Uno is what happens if you substract a few jumps from Hanyu. Kagiyama is what happens if you substract natural artistic quality from Hanyu. As much as I adore Uno, I don't think he has ever delivered a definitive skate of his career (or at least since 2018) specifically because his technical side wasn't au par with his awe-inspiring PCS.
Personally, excellence is more important to me than balance. I would agree that Kagiyama like Chen is balanced this season once his tech became stronger and matched his glide/speed. I think Sim Fa lacks PCS same as Malinin to specifically be balanced. Malinin though delivers something from beyond exceptional, despite his imbalance, while Fa doesn’t or didn’t next to Malinin. He has the same problem as Uno did next to Hanyu. Uno was brilliant; Hanyu went beyond.
You can judge any skater on balance or imbalance, on their level, but what usually wins in the end is not the balance or well-roundedness. It's excellence, particulary when it is far, far ahead of the field. Chen, Hanyu, Uno and Malinin all at some point benefitted and won because of that.
However, none of it, none, is impacted by the number of jumping passes. At all.
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- Sep 23, 2020
You can call it whatever you want, I already said that "well-rounded" is probably a better term than "balanced", so you've got it.
But let's not talk about words, but about the essence.
When a "retired" skater a few months short of turning 30 y.o.a. can singlehandedly outsell all the reigning world champs across all four FS disciplines performing on the ice in one show together, it means, more people still want to see him than all of the remaining field, including this "exceptional" jumper who just won Worlds gold.
You may ask yourself, why so, how so?
Whatever you say, the guy must be still quite exceptional to the public at large, indeed.
Whatever you say, the remaining field obviously is not very strong, neither vastly appealing, indeed.
The next question would be, is everything alright with the system that brought about this outcome?
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The complaint is that this "balance" is not reflected in the actual scoring. Hanyu was "balanced" at 2017 Worlds, and equally accomplished in all aspects of figure skating. Yet his scores in the LP were TES 126.12, PCS 97.08. His performance was balanced, getting pretty much the highest scores possible in both TES and PCS, yet the IJS gave him an imbalnce of +29 points on the tech side.
His last major victory was 2020 Four Continents. A;though he attempted 4 quads he got -3.78 on his quad Lutz and his solo quad toe was underrotaed with a fall and -3.80 GOE. So you are right to say that this program was "unbalanced" with the artistry stronger than the tech. Yet the scores were TES 97.32, PCS 91.28. That is, the scores were "balanced" but the program was not.
Edit: By the way, the silver medalist at that Four Continents event was Jason Brown. In the LP he got TES 87.53, PCS 92.53. According to the ISU his excellence in individual technical elements, mostly jumps, was about equal to the artistic and blade skills demonstrated throughout the program as a whole (within 5 points).
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The discussion was about "nobody wants a balanced skater", "it attracts no one". So, yes, about the audience drawing potential. i.,e. popularity.
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Still, I have a soft spot in my heart for my favorite unbalanced guys, too. Jason Brown's skating is not equally balanced between big jumps and audience-thrilling programs.
My favorite Patrick Chan performance of all time remains his first (2007-08) Canadian Nationals perfomrance to Four Seasons. I was astonished. Yes, later on he added quads to his repertoire, and (starting with Elegy) surprised us on the presentation side and became a complete and balanced champion. But it's those flashing blades that I remember most fondly.
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I don't think a balance skater= a star.
The ISU shouldn't be trying to find a skater that will save figure skating. Yuzuru is enormously popular,but you shouldn't try to replicate him. The Monkees didn't replace the Beatles.
In order to grow the sport
1. Fair judging
2. If an event is not sold out, if during the day during the week, have a school day field trip, on the weekend, raffles for free tickets.
3. Ilia is a jumping phenomenon, he will get more fans as time goes on.
4. Stop trying to make tech = PC. But also PC does not equal tech. Judge accordingly.
5. Stop rewarding the final flights with better GOE.
6. Judge the skate, not the skater. Today is a new day. New fans don't understand how a terrible skate can get the same score as a decent skate.
7. Falls should =0. Someone who never watched figure skating and they see a skater who fell twice scored more than a clean skate.
Clean skates need to win.
8. GOE needs to be earned not given out like candy.
The ISU shouldn't be trying to find a skater that will save figure skating. Yuzuru is enormously popular,but you shouldn't try to replicate him. The Monkees didn't replace the Beatles.
In order to grow the sport
1. Fair judging
2. If an event is not sold out, if during the day during the week, have a school day field trip, on the weekend, raffles for free tickets.
3. Ilia is a jumping phenomenon, he will get more fans as time goes on.
4. Stop trying to make tech = PC. But also PC does not equal tech. Judge accordingly.
5. Stop rewarding the final flights with better GOE.
6. Judge the skate, not the skater. Today is a new day. New fans don't understand how a terrible skate can get the same score as a decent skate.
7. Falls should =0. Someone who never watched figure skating and they see a skater who fell twice scored more than a clean skate.
Clean skates need to win.
8. GOE needs to be earned not given out like candy.
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The way I see what the discussion, not complaint, is about at this point is not about anyone's particular score but about whether the scoring / judging system should promote skaters strong in one particular skill, or encourage them to work on developing a set of more varied skills to have more skaters great at every aspect of the sport, not just jumpers taking it all, PCS included - and about potential public appeal of both approaches. This is very much the feature of the scoring system and the way it is applied by the judges. If you can outjump everyone, why not. If points you can accumulate on jumps are not enough to secure you a win, you divide your time and effort between developing more varied set of skills. It is the system which is in major imbalance here towards favouring jumpers and their jumps. Skaters and coaches just make conclusions. But the public does, too - by voting with their credit cards.
And, BTW, IMHO "balanced skaters" or "balanced programs" never meant 50% to 50% break between points gained on TES and PCS. This is a most peculiar way of understanding it, and, IMHO, 1. it is not what is usually meant by this 2. it makes the discussion absurd.
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- Oct 20, 2017
I still think figure skating is more popular for uniqueness. If a skater has great spins , but no quad..who cares. If a skater is jumping bean...fine. If a skater has star appeal ..promote it. Everyone person likes different skaters and elements. I love step sequences. I can't stand wonky jumps. And what excites me most is a clean program.
So I think we agree.
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