59th ISU Congress: Watch and Discuss

[Mathman]

i gather this is a rhetorical question.

When I wrote it that was my intention (to be rhetorical), but I am having secod thoughts along the lines of what calluj365 wrote:

I would say that his PCS would have gone down as well if he somehow had a net 0 GOE performance. So, he probably would not have won.

So basically the margon of victory is the GOE and possibly PCS. If he had done 6 quads but they were not of excellent quality, then it would be nip and tuck between him and the overall balanced performances (short and long) of Kagyama and the up and down fireworks of Siao Him Fa. That's not too bad a scoring system after all.

As for Malinin's non-jump elemnents, they were OK, too, and he would not have won (absent the high but deserved GOE) without them.

Edit: Now I am looking again at the short program. Ilia did 4Lz+3T, 4T, and 3A with a total jump GOE of 10.27 (!) In addition his spins were all level 4 with solid GOE and his step sequence got mostly 4s and 5s. That was good enugh only for third place as he lost (slightly) to Uno and Kagiyama on PCSs.

I do not see anything to criticize regarding the scoring system here. Maybe the LP rule change (6 jumping passes instead of 7) will balance up the LP a tiny bit and make it more like SP scoring, so that is (somewhat) to the good.

 

[Arigato]

I would say that his PCS would have gone down as well if he somehow had a net 0 GOE performance. So, he probably would not have won.

I can easily imagine what the landings and exits would look like to get all zeroes on GOE. (Yes, poor landings and exits can easily hammer GOE.) I agree with your conclusion, and the new winner would likely be Yuma. No panel of judges is going to give anyone PCS of 90 with all zeroes on his jumps. All zeroes would mean the skater is basically incompetent, the exits are performed on ice, not in the air, and the exits easily affect not only how well the skater resumes the program, but also how fast. IOW, a GOE of zero on every jump has the unfortunate ability to disrupt the flow and quality of the entire program to a significant degree. That will cut PCS. Given the above scenario, I could see a 4 point cut in PCS and even being unrealistically generous, a 2 point cut. And even with a mere 2 point cut in PCS, Yuma still wins.

When done superbly, I would like to see a step sequence have the same points as at least the base value of a 4T and a great spin perhaps the same BV as a triple lutz. I think Yuma's ending step sequence from his free skate last year was worth the value of at least one quad.

Agreed.

Physically, step sequences in isolation can be demanding to perform but given they are usually performed later in the program, they have the ability to take an even bigger toll on the body. Some guys simply can't do them well at all. I have a short list of men in my head who I think can actually perform a step sequence well and, yes, Yuma is on it.

Link for the Ranking of 2024 World Championship Step Sequence scores:

Skating Scores: Latest Figure Skating Results, Scores, Rankings & Statistics

The best resource for Figure Skating scores and stats on the web.

shorturl.at

 

[Mathman]

Link for the Ranking of 2024 World Championship Step Sequence scores:

Skating Scores: Latest Figure Skating Results, Scores, Rankings & Statistics

The best resource for Figure Skating scores and stats on the web.

shorturl.at

That is quite an eye-popping list, to me. The very best setp sequence got 5.85 [points. The very worst, out of 34, got 4.29 for a swing of only 1.56 points. It raises the question, why would a skater bother to work on his step sequence at all.

 

[cailuj365]

I can easily imagine what the landings and exits would look like to get all zeroes on GOE.

Yeah, while it's pretty much impossible to score a 0 GOE on every element, it could be a net 0, so some elements may have +GOE and some have -GOE. In the end, the TES is close to the BV, and there are enough negative GOE elements to disrupt the flow and overall presentation such that the PCS gets affected.

That is quite an eye-popping list, to me. The very best setp sequence got 5.85 [points. The very worst, out of 34, got 4.29 for a swing of only 1.56 points. It raises the question, why would a skater bother to work on his step sequence at all.

I think at this level, all the skaters are very competent at completing a level 3 or level 4 step sequence. Very rarely, do we see falls or stumbles. All of the skaters received net +GOE on this element at Worlds as this list shows. But spectacular step sequences are also pretty rare. That's why I would propose to weight GOE differently for step sequences and spins to reflect this. +5 GOE level 4 step sequence should be 8-9 points. +2 GOE level 4 step sequence can stay at 4-5. Alternatively, the judges could be more generous with giving out 0s or -GOE for step sequences that are just "competent" to maintain a larger point spread between the "OK" and the "great."

 

[Arigato]

why would a skater bother to work on his step sequence at all.

Skating matters.

 

[Mathman]

Skating matters.

Yes. It matters to the extent of 1.56 points. Calluj365 proposes that the rules with respect to step sequences be changed so that it matters more. In post 562 above you agreed. Me too.

 

[4everchan]

Skating matters.

A video of step sequences without Patrick Chan loses a lot of credibility...

 

[Magill]

That is quite an eye-popping list, to me. The very best setp sequence got 5.85 [points. The very worst, out of 34, got 4.29 for a swing of only 1.56 points. It raises the question, why would a skater bother to work on his step sequence at all.

Agree.
It is the same for spins - here the range from the best to the worst was from 5.10 to 4.15 i.e. less than 1 point.

Skating Scores: Latest Figure Skating Results, Scores, Rankings & Statistics

The best resource for Figure Skating scores and stats on the web.

skatingscores.com

And for choreo sequence the range was from 5.36 to 3.07 i.e. 2.30.

Skating Scores: Latest Figure Skating Results, Scores, Rankings & Statistics

The best resource for Figure Skating scores and stats on the web.

skatingscores.com

For jumps, the difference between the "best" (most expensive in terms of points rewarded) and the "worst" was appx. 10 points. Just for one jumping pass. 1 out of how many?

Skating Scores: Latest Figure Skating Results, Scores, Rankings & Statistics

The best resource for Figure Skating scores and stats on the web.

skatingscores.com

It is obvious than in the view of rewards, it is only/mainly jumps that really matter now. And you can see it on the ice.
I really think (and mentioned it many times before) it is the high time for the SoV to be reviewed in the view of jump vs non-jump element TES, even more importantly than for TES vs PCS. The progress with jump content was such, not just for top skaters but for most of the field, that it makes the possible gains or losses on non-jump elements basically forgettable if you have the jumps. Combined with the judges tendency to award PCS to big jumpers no matter what, it makes the system completely unbalanced and biased towards jumps. If we want skaters to "bother" again, it needs to change.
And even when we think they do and will "bother" anyway, the best in those elements should be rewarded appropriately, meaning a point system more discriminating between the best and the not-so-great.

 

[Weathergal]

A video of step sequences without Patrick Chan loses a lot of credibility...

I would add Daisuke Takahashi to that as well.

Thanks @Magill for those examples - they really do tell the tale: not enough differentiation/reward between not-so-good, good, and outstanding step sequences, choreo sequences, and spins.

 

[4everchan]

I would add Daisuke Takahashi to that as well.

Definitely.

 

[cailuj365]

Thanks @Magill for the links. Other than the choreo sequence, Skating Scores limits the list to the top 35, so there are a lot of other spins, jumps, steps that are lower than what we're seeing, but we can see what the point differential is for the top 35 at least.

While I want to see more points for great spins and steps to give more credit to those who are great in those areas, I am in favor of keeping the jump scoring as is. We can't de-value jumps. It's the most easily recognizable element, it's easy to recognize when someone completely fails at it (fall or pop, bad landing), and the fail rate for these elements are much higher than that of spins or steps.

(Completely off topic, and I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I don't understand why figure skating doesn't do individual medals for spins, steps, jumps, etc, and then have an "all-around" champion with the full SP and FS programs. Personally, I think the team competition adds very little to the Olympics. We're just watching skaters perform the same full program twice. They could have determined the best team by taking the SP and FS scores from skaters of each country.)

 

[Mathman]

I go back and forth on this issue. I think that we are all agreed that Malinin won the world championship because he did six quads, racking up huge base value... ANd the jumps were of excellent quality earning big GOE... AND his non-jump elements were quite satisfactory AND his Program Components were farly strong, too.

The base values alone, even though he did a quad Axel and a bunch of other hard stuff, would not have won the gold medal without all those ANDs. Does this mean that the IJS is working as intended after all?

 

[4everchan]

I go back and forth on this issue. I think that we are all agreed that Malinin won the world championship because he did six quads, racking up hige base value... ANd the jumps were of excellent quality earning big GOE..

Agree

. AND his non-jump elements were quite satisfactory

they were OKay but not stand out. I don't remember how they scored versus the top scorers for spins and steps. His Choreo sequence was exciting so I don't mind the big rewards if he got them there.

AND his Program Components were farly strong, too.

He was marked a tad too high... especially in the LP. But not enough to mean he wouldn't be world champion.

The base values alone, even though he did a quad Axel and a bunch of other hard stuff, would not have won the gold medal without all those ANDs.

Well, of course a skater needs to land the jumps... nothing new here....

Does this mean that the IJS is working as intended after all?

That conclusion cannot be drawn from this event. There are plenty of ways we could say the IJS doesn't work as intended either.
If you draw this conclusion, would you say that a skater with two major falls at the Olympics shouldn't have won and since he won, the IJS is not working ? This kind of conclusion gets very dangerous and doesn't take into account how the other skaters have done.

If the IJS intended to get a balance between TES and PCS, then, the high BVs have broken it I think we can give this a rest : there is a whole thread about the

1) the lack of balance between jumps and everything else
2) the PCS being given like candies.

 

[Arigato]

I think that we are all agreed that Malinin won the world championship because he did six quads, racking up huge base value... ANd the jumps were of excellent quality earning big GOE... AND his non-jump elements were quite satisfactory [...]

We do not all agree.

I do not think the non-jump element step sequence in the free skate was anywhere near "quite satisfactory." The fact is, the step sequence was the worst score ever received by a male gold medalist in a World Championship FS, during the entire +5 scoring system era.

 

[Arigato]

A video of step sequences without Patrick Chan loses a lot of credibility...

My position on the importance of the step sequence is skater-independent. As for Patrick, I assure you I did not forget his step sequences. I watch them all the time. Nor did I forget who received the highest scores during the +3 scoring era with him. To wit:

Skating Scores: Latest Figure Skating Results, Scores, Rankings & Statistics

The best resource for Figure Skating scores and stats on the web.

shorturl.at

 

[4everchan]

My position on the importance of the step sequence is skater-independent. As for Patrick, I assure you I did not forget his step sequences. I watch them all the time. Nor did I forget who received the highest scores during the +3 scoring era with him. To wit:

Skating Scores: Latest Figure Skating Results, Scores, Rankings & Statistics

The best resource for Figure Skating scores and stats on the web.

shorturl.at

What I find hilarious here is how in 2010-11, step sequences would get more points. If you look at the number of +3 GOE, Dai got less than others in further seasons but his Step Sequences scored more. So when people complain that jumps are worth less, well well...1/2 step seq was nixed so half (imagine if they cut half the jumping passes in the LP LOL) and the GOE factor was higher.

 

[Magill]

I go back and forth on this issue. I think that we are all agreed that Malinin won the world championship because he did six quads, racking up huge base value... ANd the jumps were of excellent quality earning big GOE... AND his non-jump elements were quite satisfactory AND his Program Components were farly strong, too.

The base values alone, even though he did a quad Axel and a bunch of other hard stuff, would not have won the gold medal without all those ANDs. Does this mean that the IJS is working as intended after all?

I will not go into discussion of Malinin's performance as I do not think this current discussion is really meant to be about any particular skater or any particular result. Then, of course, we are falling into a trap of how we personally feel about this particular skater and result which can only bias our perceptions and which does not help to see the reality as it is.
What I find problematic is the system's unintended bias towards jumps in the scoring resulting from the open-end TES for jumps as opposed to all the non-jump elements. This bias may be proven both by the raw number of points available for jumps vs all the other elements, and the ability of SoV to differentiate between the best, the average and the weak in non-jump elements' TES. The differentiation ability is one of most basic features of any scale when it is being assessed and evaluated for credibility. Basically, when the differentiation does not work, then the scale should go to rubbish. At this point usually a new, more precise scale is introduced, mostly by adding more precise evaluation tools for the part of the scale which is most affected by the lack of differentiation i.e. the average results, or the far end(s), or both (when the whole scale got outdated and needs to be thoroughly rebuilt).
I stand by my earlier statement that e.g. a great step sequence should equal a quad in points.
Another problem is oc the way the non-jump elements are evaluated but unless the system is more balanced even best judging cannot help it.,

 

[Mathman]

At this point usually a new, more precise scale is introduced, mostly by adding more precise evaluation tools for the part of the scale which is most affected by the lack of differentiation i.e. the average results, or the far end(s), or both (when the whole scale got outdated and needs to be thoroughly rebuilt).

I think that what makes the problem so challenging is that the TES/PCS imbalance pops out at us only in the case of the tiny handful of skaters at the very tip-top of the point scale. On the average, it is not too far off at all. If you take any competition at any level and simply count how many skaters got higher TES than PCS and how many the other way, there seems to be about an equal number in each category up and down the whole competition.

At 2024 wolrds men's LP, where we would expect the difference to be most stark, only three skaters scored more that 100 points in TES , taking advantage of the "unlimited" potential vis-a-vis PCS. For the other 21 competitors, 11 had higher TES and 10 had higher PCS.

Maybe to ISU's approach is not so bad after all. By reducing the jumping passes from 7 to 6 they are telling the super-techies, OK you did a lot of big jumps, now what else have you got?

 

[Magill]

I think that what makes the problem so challenging is that the TES/PCS imbalance pops out at us only in the case of the tiny handful of skaters at the very tip-top of the point scale. On the average, it is not too far off at all. If you take any competition at any level and simply count how many skaters got higher TES than PCS and how many the other way, there seems to be about an equal number in each category up and down the whole competition.

At 2024 wolrds men's LP, where we would expect the difference to be most stark, only three skaters scored more that 100 points in TES , taking advantage of the "unlimited" potential vis-a-vis PCS. For the other 21 competitors, 11 had higher TES and 10 had higher PCS.

Maybe to ISU's approach is not so bad after all. By reducing the jumping passes from 7 to 6 they are telling the super-techies, OK you did a lot of big jumps, now what else have you got?

But I was not talking about TES vs PCS. I was talking about the step sequence subscale, spin subscale, choreo sequence subscale.
It is these subscales which seem to have lost their differentiation abilities when you look at the range of results.
If we talk about TES vs PCS then there are many problems with it.
First, what exactly is balanced with this? Not technical vs artistic, for sure. Not objective vs subjective, not the way it should be judged.
So what?
I think when talking about balance, the real balance we are seeking is somewhere else.

 

[TontoK]

I go back and forth on this issue. I think that we are all agreed that Malinin won the world championship because he did six quads, racking up huge base value... ANd the jumps were of excellent quality earning big GOE... AND his non-jump elements were quite satisfactory AND his Program Components were farly strong, too.

The base values alone, even though he did a quad Axel and a bunch of other hard stuff, would not have won the gold medal without all those ANDs. Does this mean that the IJS is working as intended after all?

All of this is true, but there's one more. He is the only skater (at least in the upper echelon) who skated two clean programs.

Everyone else had at least one noticeable error on a big element in either the short or the long.

Would he have won if everyone else had skated as well? I think so, but of course we can't be absolutely certain. We can say for certain that the gap would not have been as great.

It was Ilia's only fully clean competition of the year. He picked an excellent time to deliver it.