AIN Competitors, Coaches, and ISU Rules

[CaroLiza_fan]

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Why on Earth do the IOC keeping changing the code used for the independent Russian athletes competing at each Olympics?! All this chopping and changing makes record keeping so difficult!

What particularly annoyed me was when they used "ROC" for the Russians in Beijing, because that code had previously been used for a different entity at the Olympics. And as a result, every time I saw the letters "ROC", my brain automatically read it as Taiwan. (Given the political situation, you would have thought the Chinese hosts would have wanted to avoid having the letters "ROC" appear!)

What was wrong with the "OAR" code used in Pyeongchang?! They should have stuck with it.

And then maybe have an "OAB" for the Belorussian athletes.

Or better still, just have "RUS" and "BLR". Much simpler for everybody to understand.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[4everchan]

Why on Earth do the IOC keeping changing the code used for the independent Russian athletes competing at each Olympics?! All this chopping and changing makes record keeping so difficult!

What particularly annoyed me was when they used "ROC" for the Russians in Beijing, because that code had previously been used for a different entity at the Olympics. And as a result, every time I saw the letters "ROC", my brain automatically read it as Taiwan. (Given the political situation, you would have thought the Chinese hosts would have wanted to avoid having the letters "ROC" appear!)

What was wrong with the "OAR" code used in Pyeongchang?! They should have stuck with it.

And then maybe have an "OAB" for the Belorussian athletes.

Or better still, just have "RUS" and "BLR". Much simpler for everybody to understand.

CaroLiza_fan

ROC or OAR : this features the country's name.

with AIN : they wanted to really make a statement that the athletes are "neutral"
they did the same with world aquatics.. AIN1 was Belarus and AIN2 was Russia

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

ROC or OAR : this features the country's name.

with AIN : they wanted to really make a statement that the athletes are "neutral"

Mmmm. When you put it like that, I can understand their thinking. But, it makes it mighty confusing for those watching. You have to have your wits about you, and a lot of people, particularly those who only watch every 4 years, won't.

The code should make it instantly obvious where the athlete is from. And that isn't the case here.

That is also why I don't agree with the athletes from countries whose NOC has been suspended being made to use the Independent Athlete designation and code. Because it is indicating a different country every time it is used! Which makes it confusing for those watching, and makes it a nightmare for record keeping.

they did the same with world aquatics.. AIN1 was Belarus and AIN2 was Russia

Although still not ideal (you could get your numbers mixed up ), at least they went to the bother of indicating which country the athlete is from. So, I hope the IOC realises the benefit of this, and does something similar.

I really do not like this situation where two countries are using the same code. (Which is why I never liked "ROC" being used for the Russians in Beijing, because that code can mean somewhere else).

CaroLiza_fan

 

[4everchan]

Mmmm. When you put it like that, I can understand their thinking. But, it makes it mighty confusing for those watching. You have to have your wits about you, and a lot of people, particularly those who only watch every 4 years, won't.

I don't know.. I had no problem knowing from world aquatics.. and considering figure skating, with only 2 Russians competing, it won't be a problem for anyone to figure out who is who... Honestly, no matter how you label them, the whole thing is a masquerade and not a subtle one.

The code should make it instantly obvious where the athlete is from. And that isn't the case here.

The issue I can see is that you are comparing apples and oranges.

With OAR and ROC, the Russian athletes were not on a blanket ban. They were on what we could call a "state-sponsored watch list" So they had lost their flag and anthem but their athletes who had been regularly tested and seemed clean could compete and everyone knew who they were and that backfired because well, in the most followed sport at the winter games, in the most beloved by those once every four year fans discipline, the top contender was doped.

That is also why I don't agree with the athletes from countries whose NOC has been suspended being made to use the Independent Athlete designation and code. Because it is indicating a different country every time it is used! Which makes it confusing for those watching, and makes it a nightmare for record keeping.

I am not confused... Are you really ? If in doubt, google the name of the athlete and in two seconds you have your answers... sometimes, that's faster than knowing by heart 140 flags

Although still not ideal (you could get your numbers mixed up ), at least they went to the bother of indicating which country the athlete is from. So, I hope the IOC realises the benefit of this, and does something similar.

I really do not like this situation where two countries are using the same code. (Which is why I never liked "ROC" being used for the Russians in Beijing, because that code can mean somewhere else).

Well, I am sure the IOC will have a different code when it's time, just like they did at world aquatics... and perhaps even the ISU will but for now, it's just a random entry list and I wouldn't read too much into it...
But if I am going to be blunt, I would prefer they put all the independent and neutral athletes in the same pool That would really mean that they are competing for themselves and only themselves To me, the medal table would combine all these athletes into one big AIN denomination.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

I don't know.. I had no problem knowing from world aquatics.. and considering figure skating, with only 2 Russians competing, it won't be a problem for anyone to figure out who is who... Honestly, no matter how you label them, the whole thing is a masquerade and not a subtle one.

I totally agree with you that it is a masquerade. But, that's the Olympics for you!

I am not confused... Are you really ? If in doubt, google the name of the athlete and in two seconds you have your answers... sometimes, that's faster than knowing by heart 140 flags

Me, no. But a lot of people that do not follow all the ins and outs will be.

Be honest, do you really think a 4-year fan with a casual interest will go to the bother of finding out where these AIN athletes are from? They'll just either assume they are from some country they haven't heard tell of or, if they know the basics of the situation, they'll assume they're all Russians. Which isn't fair on the Belorussian athletes.

At an event where everything revolves around this silly notion of "representing your country", there needs to be something in the "team name", IOC code or the "team" uniforms that makes it obvious which country the athletes are from.

Well, I am sure the IOC will have a different code when it's time, just like they did at world aquatics... and perhaps even the ISU will but for now, it's just a random entry list and I wouldn't read too much into it...
But if I am going to be blunt, I would prefer they put all the independent and neutral athletes in the same pool That would really mean that they are competing for themselves and only themselves To me, the medal table would combine all these athletes into one big AIN denomination.

Well, you know how I feel. Everybody should be competing as an independent athlete (so to speak) all the time. You are representing yourself, your coach, your club, and your family. Your nationality should only be a way of describing where you come from. That's the way it is in motorsport, and it works perfectly there.

But, we're far enough off topic as it is. We've covered this ground often enough over the years. No need to do it again.

And anyway, there is something that is actually on-topic that I want to bring up in a separate post. So, I'll leave it there.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[4everchan]

I totally agree with you that it is a masquerade. But, that's the Olympics for you!

the masquerade is not the olympics.. .it's pretending you are clean when you dope... and other political issues i won't get into.

Me, no. But a lot of people that do not follow all the ins and outs will be.

Be honest, do you really think a 4-year fan with a casual interest will go to the bother of finding out where these AIN athletes are from? They'll just either assume they are from some country they haven't heard tell of or, if they know the basics of the situation, they'll assume they're all Russians. Which isn't fair on the Belorussian athletes.

At an event where everything revolves around this silly notion of "representing your country", there needs to be something in the "team name", IOC code or the "team" uniforms that makes it obvious which country the athletes are from.

I am pretty sure the commentators will tell who is who and from where they are from...

Well, you know how I feel. Everybody should be competing as an independent athlete (so to speak) all the time. You are representing yourself, your coach, your club, and your family. Your nationality should only be a way of describing where you come from. That's the way it is in motorsport, and it works perfectly there.

and then, only the wealthy can afford competing... and that's the way in motorsport because people into it are super wealthy or have mega sponsors.

The Olympics trigger national funding, given to athletes who then are proud to be selected.. It's just a circle that works out for the best for most. I know you don't like it but that's fine...

But, we're far enough off topic as it is. We've covered this ground often enough over the years. No need to do it again.

And anyway, there is something that is actually on-topic that I want to bring up in a separate post. So, I'll leave it there.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[snowflake]

the first AIN is Belarus... so that's why it's after... and the second one, is Russia... (lower down the list)

So they are not even bothering to change the alphabetical order but just placing AIN instead of the countries that are banned.

I think it's because they want it to show which nations the skaters represent.

But if I am going to be blunt, I would prefer they put all the independent and neutral athletes in the same pool That would really mean that they are competing for themselves and only themselves To me, the medal table would combine all these athletes into one big AIN denomination.

Hm, I could like this I think

Here is how it worked at Paris summer olympics
if wikipedia is right

I wonder how many AINs there will be in other sports, but that's for another thread.

 

[4everchan]

I think it's because they want it to show which nations the skaters represent.

Hm, I could like this I think

Here is how it worked at Paris summer olympics
if wikipedia is right

I wonder how many AINs there will be in other sports, but that's for another thread.

I think there will be a lot more AINs this time around... but in figure skating, we already know what we are going to get.

 

[snowflake]

I think there will be a lot more AINs this time around... but in figure skating, we already know what we are going to get.

I'm not so sure about that. I'll start a thread for AINs in other sports.

 

[Jontor]

So how does it work?

Let's say Petrosian qualifies for the Olympics, but then gets injured somehow during the tough Russian competitions that are inevitably coming. Does that mean that Gorbacheva gets to go to Milan? Even though she was never in the qualifier competition?

 

[saine]

So how does it work?

Let's say Petrosian qualifies for the Olympics, but then gets injured somehow during the tough Russian competitions that are inevitably coming. Does that mean that Gorbacheva gets to go to Milan? Even though she was never in the qualifier competition?

From the ISU Q & A:

One Substitute per AIN is allowed in case of illness or injury prior to the start of the Olympic Qualification System (“OQS”) competitions. The Substitute may only participate in OQS events and cannot replace a Nominated Athlete injured after the conclusion of the OQS events.

So no, Gorbacheva does not get to go to Milan in case of injury. She is only a substitute for the qualifying event.

 

[FlossieH]

So how does it work?

Let's say Petrosian qualifies for the Olympics, but then gets injured somehow during the tough Russian competitions that are inevitably coming. Does that mean that Gorbacheva gets to go to Milan? Even though she was never in the qualifier competition?

No, because - assuming she qualifies - Petrosian will be representing herself rather than representing a country. That is a key difference between AIN status and the previous ROC and OAR ones. Yes, everyone will know that she is Russian, but she is not actually representing them and it will not count as a Russian medal (assuming she gets a medal) in the official statistics.

 

[lariko]

Yes, yes, it's all so fair and logical, it makes my stomach turn. Thanks, ISU!

 

[paulusfr]

So how does it work?

Let's say Petrosian qualifies for the Olympics, but then gets injured somehow during the tough Russian competitions that are inevitably coming.

That was never an issue for coach Tutberidze. Her teenage girls skate while severely injured, even with broken bones. That's the biggest competition of Petrosian's life, so don’t doubt it — unless politics gets in the way, she’ll be in Milan.

 

[Kittosuni]

That was never an issue for coach Tutberidze. Her teenage girls skate while severely injured, even with broken bones. That's the biggest competition of Petrosian's life, so don’t doubt it — unless politics gets in the way, she’ll be in Milan.

Also this year is so different from other years because there is no pressure on Petrosyan to peak several times (Russian GP, Nationals, or whatever competition they have) or she is forced to compete injured just to fight for her placement for the Olympics. This time as long Petrosyan is able to secure her spot in Beijing, all she needs to do now is pace her self and peak for Milan.

 

[niks]

Also the entry lists have been adjusted so that AIN is where it should be alphabetically.

Honestly, sometimes I can't help it but wonder who actually runs things at ISU and how the organization can manage to survive with such people in charge...

Regardless of what you think of the ban itself, the ISU made such a big deal of banning Russian / Belarusian skaters because of the war, of only allowing "neutral individual" athletes who are there only for themselves and have no connections to their countries.... only to go and list them in the official entries lists according to their original country! I mean, the whole "individual" athlete was never going to really work of course because everyone knows who these athletes are, and in case of doubt as mentioned in a post above, people will just assume they are all Russians (and more fundamentally, it was not going to work because these athletes were selected by their national Feds in the first place!), but still to have the ISU officially admit the whole thing is a charade (word I also took from another post above and that just fits all this so perfectly) in their own entry lists, it's quite something

 

[Skating91]

So how does it work?

Let's say Petrosian qualifies for the Olympics, but then gets injured somehow during the tough Russian competitions that are inevitably coming. Does that mean that Gorbacheva gets to go to Milan? Even though she was never in the qualifier competition?

No both miss out. This is by design . It would certainly be the great Olympic gold in figure skating history if an AIN skater can avoid all these booby traps and banana peels placed in front of them.

 

[Skating91]

That was never an issue for coach Tutberidze. Her teenage girls skate while severely injured, even with broken bones. That's the biggest competition of Petrosian's life, so don’t doubt it — unless politics gets in the way, she’ll be in Milan.

No they don't.

 

[Mathematician]

Which isn't fair on the Belorussian athletes.

The only courtesy given here is to the athletes themselves as independent entities. Their nationality means nothing. I do not think ISU or OLY care about respecting those countries at all.

I am pretty sure the commentators will tell who is who and from where they are from...

Even with current transfers the ISU announcers mention if a skater trains out of Moscow for example. They don't seem particularly paranoid about it.

Her teenage girls skate while severely injured, even with broken bones.

Thats not really true at all. Her athletes, especially the juniors can be notorious for withdrawing over even minor injuries if its not a crucial start. If its a major injury they often miss entire seasons. I have no idea where you got your idea about broken bones lol, that is just hilarious and physically impossible even if Eteri was the devil herself.

 

[Mathematician]

I'm not sure what to expect. I don't think they will risk 3A if there's a risk of her singling it in the short program. Maybe adjust the layout put the sequence and a 3-3 early in the free skate. I think you want to leave her some outs if things go really wrong. 170 should see her qualify (I'm not sure why many are attempting to qualify they have almost zero chance).

I guess she could play it safe in the SP but even if she falls on a 3A the BV will keep her top 5 easily and the FS remains pretty clear unless she completely plummets. The only reason to tryhard for gold at this event is as someone else said for the PCS standard going into the Olympics. Which to be fair is really important. Otherwise I think the practice under pressure makes going for a 3A worth it. Taking it easy in the SP depending on her form is fair but I would definitely be really surprised if she skates an entire FS with no ultra-c.

Are medals even handed out for this event?

Probably... Why not?

For PCS I couldn't imagine Petrosian being lower than Gubanova?

Remember Leona's 36 a couple seasons ago? These judges can come up with anything. As long as Adeliia is getting even just 7s she cant really lose. Its really hard to imagine them dropping her lower than that. I'd call that a minimum. She might get pretty low scores here but with a first place precedent I expect 8s minimum at the Olympics and to me thats sort of worst case scenario realistically.