AIN Competitors, Coaches, and ISU Rules

[Cutting the ice]

Wow - this is depressing.

Unlike many of the public, I dread Olympics year. Particularly for this sport where the controversy around doping, bad judging, physical and mental abuse of children has greatly damaged (destroyed) the public reputation of figure skating - to say nothing of this political cesspool of Russian participation. I am not sure it will survive another bad hit.

The Olympics represents to the public a nationalistic display of superiority. Athletes who win are special forever to their countries. Athletes who place behind may feel they are losers even if they have been previously world champions (I think of Brian Orser who couldn't watch his Olympic silver medal skate for 10 years because of his "failure" to win gold).

Personally, I would not shed a single tear if the Olympic games ceased to exist. It would actually be a relief.

Please note, these comments are not directed at athletes and the amazing things they do. Its about the event and the politics around it.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Wow - this is depressing.

Unlike many of the public, I dread Olympics year. Particularly for this sport where the controversy around doping, bad judging, physical and mental abuse of children has greatly damaged (destroyed) the public reputation of figure skating - to say nothing of this political cesspool of Russian participation. I am not sure it will survive another bad hit.

The Olympics represents to the public a nationalistic display of superiority. Athletes who win are special forever to their countries. Athletes who place behind may feel they are losers even if they have been previously world champions (I think of Brian Orser who couldn't watch his Olympic silver medal skate for 10 years because of his "failure" to win gold).

Personally, I would not shed a single tear if the Olympic games ceased to exist. It would actually be a relief.

Please note, these comments are not directed at athletes and the amazing things they do. Its about the event and the politics around it.

Finally! Somebody on here who feels the same way as I do!

Well, to a point.

I've always believed in the mantra "it's not the winning that matters, it's the taking part". As long as you know that you have done the best that you can do on that particular day, it doesn't matter what your score or your position is. You can feel satisfaction in what you have done.

So, it really annoys me when people take the viewpoint that if you don't win the Gold Medal, you have failed. Unfortunately, this is the viewpoint the media usually takes. They build up the expectations of their country's athlete(s), and if these expectations are not met, they tear the poor athlete(s) to shreads.

That is not right.

And being from a place where national identity is something that divides the community, I hate this whole idea of representing a country. As I alluded to in my previous post, you are representing your coach and your club. Your nationality should only be a means of describing where you come from.

The Olympics were special when they were a sporting event for true amateur athletes. Now, they are an over-hyped entertainment side-show for elite athletes that completely messes up their regular season.

I would love for the Olympics to go back to basics. But in these days of TV companies wanting sport to be a show, that isn't going to happen.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[4everchan]

Wow - this is depressing.

Unlike many of the public, I dread Olympics year. Particularly for this sport where the controversy around doping, bad judging, physical and mental abuse of children has greatly damaged (destroyed) the public reputation of figure skating - to say nothing of this political cesspool of Russian participation. I am not sure it will survive another bad hit.

The Olympics represents to the public a nationalistic display of superiority. Athletes who win are special forever to their countries. Athletes who place behind may feel they are losers even if they have been previously world champions (I think of Brian Orser who couldn't watch his Olympic silver medal skate for 10 years because of his "failure" to win gold).

Personally, I would not shed a single tear if the Olympic games ceased to exist. It would actually be a relief.

Please note, these comments are not directed at athletes and the amazing things they do. Its about the event and the politics around it.

I don't disagree with your sentiment. Patrick's 2014 disaster took a toll on his career... and on my stress.

However, without the Olympics, there would be very few sports in Canada with a bit of funding. For me, the Olympics glory represents also a rebellion against hockey We are more than just one sport

 

[Cutting the ice]

I understand. It is a complex issue with many emotions involved. I understand the allure of being an Olympic champion ( or participant). I understand of the need for over the top spectacle to sell advertising. Just worry it will further destroy our sport with these controversies.

 

[Mathman]

Suppose Petrosian wins? You would have her stand on a podium while no anthem plays?

That's what's bizarre. This Russian athlete is nominated (I suppose) by the Russian Skating Federation, an ISU member although one that is in the doghouse at present because of reprehensible actions by lord-high-mucketymucks inside and outside of skating. She wins a prize. So in her honor they play a random song that has nothing to do with Russia and means nothing to her. What is she supposed to do, give the ISU a patriotic one-finger salute while the tune is playing?

I for one hope she skates her best. If she does, who is going to beat her?

 

[TallyT]

I don't disagree with your sentiment. Patrick's 2014 disaster took a toll on his career... and on my stress.

I'm not a Patrick fan, but I absolutely felt gutted for him (while at the same time happy for Yuzuru and Denis, emotions being as complicated as they are) the first time I saw the flower ceremony. It's also one reason why I do wish no one would ever call this star or that 'a lock' for gold, Olympics or anywhere.

 

[midori green]

They do - https://stillmed.olympics.com/media/Documents/News/2024/03/AIN-Anthem.mp3

That's quite the generic fanfare.

 

[TontoK]

The Olympics represents to the public a nationalistic display of superiority. Athletes who win are special forever to their countries. Athletes who place behind may feel they are losers even if they have been previously world champions (I think of Brian Orser who couldn't watch his Olympic silver medal skate for 10 years because of his "failure" to win gold).

Counterpoint: Seeing athletes from around the world engage in sporting events allows the public to connect (by proxy) nations and cultures they might ordinarily not connect with.

At the height of the Cold War, Olga and Nadia captured the adoration of the West. I'm old enough to have been a sports fan "live" during the era. They absolutely offered a different perspective than what might be offered only the nightly news. We saw them, and by extension their countrymen, as real people and not abstract ideological enemies.

I know it's a bit cliche, but athletics really do have the power to heal and unite. There's a reason the first notable USA outreach to China was through table tennis.

It's one of the reasons I get so outraged by doping. It undermines the most valuable aspect of sports.

 

[TontoK]

About the medal ceremonies, you can go view medal ceremonies for former Soviet athletes in 1992 (Unified Team at the Olympics, Confederation of Independent States at the World Championships) to view some very emotionless proceedings. They stood under flags that were not their own and listened to music that had no bearing to what they were used to as their national anthems. They just looked like they wanted this over with.

If one of the Russians-but-we're-pretending-they're-not wins, I supposed they'll have some sort of flag and listen to some sort of appropriate music like they always have. And that's fine. "I'll take my medal, thank you and good-bye."

My question is this: The "tradition" of skating around taking a victory lap after the medal ceremony with the national flag is relatively new. So what is that medal-winning athlete going to do?

 

[TallyT]

I know it's a bit cliche, but athletics really do have the power to heal and unite.

Though to be fair, it also has the power do divide and destroy. Even start a (small) war...

Sport is part athleticism and competition, part politics and part propaganda. That's been the way for decades, always will be.

 

[Lana777]

It is rumoured she is listed as coach for georgian pair and already flew to Bejing. This event is turning into shitshow and if it wasn't for a few athletes I really want to support, I wouldn't be even considering watching.

Eteri is with Petrosian. Not officially, she's a member of the Georgian team.

 

[lariko]

I also think Olympics is a corrupt institution and there is no way to make it savory. However, ISU imo made it even more unsavory with AIN rules it gleefully created. Again, congrats for achieving what I thought was impossible. My sympathy goes to the athletes.

I am also grateful that for once this discussion is allowed on this forum.

 

[Karoltyna]

Eteri is with Petrosian. Not officially, she's a member of the Georgian team.

As I wrote, shitshow.

 

[lariko]

About the medal ceremonies, you can go view medal ceremonies for former Soviet athletes in 1992 (Unified Team at the Olympics, Confederation of Independent States at the World Championships) to view some very emotionless proceedings. They stood under flags that were not their own and listened to music that had no bearing to what they were used to as their national anthems. They just looked like they wanted this over with.

If one of the Russians-but-we're-pretending-they're-not wins, I supposed they'll have some sort of flag and listen to some sort of appropriate music like they always have. And that's fine. "I'll take my medal, thank you and good-bye."

My question is this: The "tradition" of skating around taking a victory lap after the medal ceremony with the national flag is relatively new. So what is that medal-winning athlete going to do?

Skate wet.

But I am sure someone somewhere in Kostroma is already embroidering a beige flag (or cloth-of-gold?) that simply says Adeliia. It will drape her slim shoulders. She no longer needs a nation or last name. Just the first name and the gold medal.

 

[Skater Boy]

Skate wet.

But I am sure someone somewhere in Kostroma is already embroidering a beige flag (or cloth-of-gold?) that simply says Adeliia. It will drape her slim shoulders. She no longer needs a nation or last name. Just the first name and the gold medal.

I love the idea of what I thought of the olympics but it is very different now. A lot goes into tv ratings so we have all sorts of creative events different mixed and team event, x game events - things that make the sports more sexy. I am not sure how I feel about Russian athletes competing. I don't know/understand if the olympics are simply the best athletes, best amateur athletes, competing for your country, individual, should politics be involved with the olymics ie boycot and bans. It breaks my heart to see athletes put so much value into winning OGM. Arguably Michelle Kwan, Brian Orser, Elvis Stojko, Kurt Browning, Patrick Chan, Babilonia and Gardner, Linda Fratianne, Rosalyn Sumners et al didn't win OGM but are iconic skaters some didn't win any olympic medal. It is in some ways too bad so much is put into the olympics when a lot iskind of circumstances. I do think not having the Russians in pairs in 2026 has a huge affect on the results.

 

[lariko]

I love the idea of what I thought of the olympics but it is very different now. A lot goes into tv ratings so we have all sorts of creative events different mixed and team event, x game events - things that make the sports more sexy. I am not sure how I feel about Russian athletes competing. I don't know/understand if the olympics are simply the best athletes, best amateur athletes, competing for your country, individual, should politics be involved with the olymics ie boycot and bans. It breaks my heart to see athletes put so much value into winning OGM. Arguably Michelle Kwan, Brian Orser, Elvis Stojko, Kurt Browning, Patrick Chan, Babilonia and Gardner, Linda Fratianne, Rosalyn Sumners et al didn't win OGM but are iconic skaters some didn't win any olympic medal. It is in some ways too bad so much is put into the olympics when a lot iskind of circumstances. I do think not having the Russians in pairs in 2026 has a huge affect on the results.

Not sure why you quoting me here, but I don't really know any of those skaters from the past, and I believe the only real tournament that makes sense is Grand Prix/Junior Grand Prix because it is tied to the countries the least and to the performance the most. GPs, Challengers and World Championships is what I would like to go on, scrapping Olympics and 4CC/EU.

 

[Cutting the ice]

I agree that the Olympic ideal (excellence, respect, friendship) is wonderful but

a) we don't need the Olympics to appreciate the achievements of athletes at the global level. Once could argue that the achievements at world events, particularly repeating international successes - is far more important than the Olympics as it represents consistency of performance.

b) the Olympics and its stature and opportunities to make money creates more "reasons" for cheating by athletes, coaches, national sporting organizations (so many examples). Best to leave that for the "professional" sports.

As mentioned, the Olympic tarnish (physical and emotional abuse, cheating, doping, political interference, etc) has damaged the brand of figure skating to the public - just ask somebody who isn't a knowledgable fan like us what their impression of the sport is.

Heroes are wonderful but we can have heroes without the Olympics.

 

[Isk]

Not sure why you quoting me here, but I don't really know any of those skaters from the past, and I believe the only real tournament that makes sense is Grand Prix/Junior Grand Prix because it is tied to the countries the least and to the performance the most. GPs, Challengers and World Championships is what I would like to go on, scrapping Olympics and 4CC/EU.

I think junior GP is becoming interesting again indeed, because the new generation will adapt to the rule changes (quite tectonic) that happened pre- and post-pandemic. Hopefully some sort of renaissance will follow. But I am surprised you haven't heard of famous skaters from the 1980s and 1990s. They are worth searching on you-tube, even the ones from the 1970s and before that, as there was a lot of artistically and sports-wise interesting stuff happening, and it gives a perspective how figure skating has changed since then.

 

[lariko]

I think junior GP is becoming interesting again indeed, because the new generation will adapt to the rule changes (quite tectonic) that happened pre- and post-pandemic. Hopefully some sort of renaissance will follow. But I am surprised you haven't heard of famous skaters from the 1980s and 1990s. They are worth searching on you-tube, even the ones from the 1970s and before that, as there was a lot of artistically and sports-wise interesting stuff happening, and it gives a perspective how figure skating has changed since then.

I tried at some point and it's boring af since all these competitions are long in the past, results are archived, and the scoring is a complete and total joke. I like current skating far more, as it is more exciting, the current skaters compete from juniors onto seniors with full competitions broadcasts and there is clear result panel as the skate progresses with a rule set that is less easy to fudge based on anything unrelated to the athletics. With the AI coming in soon to assist in judging, it will be even more interesting because the competition will be more fair, save for the PCS. I am not into ice shows either.

 

[Isk]

I tried at some point and it's boring af since all these competitions are long in the past, results are archived, and the scoring is a complete and total joke. I like current skating far more, as it is more exciting, the current skaters compete from juniors onto seniors with full competitions broadcasts and there is clear result panel as the skate progresses with a rule set that is less easy to fudge based on anything unrelated to the athletics. With the AI coming in soon to assist in judging, it will be even more interesting because the competition will be more fair, save for the PCS. I am not into ice shows either.

Hm... This is not the place for talking about this, but I've always been more interested in the artistic side of figure skating than rotated jumps, correct edge take-off, etc. I don't care as much about AI in judging as the return of aesthetics, skating and programs. Historically, it's been fluctuating between technicalities and artistry. In the 70-80s, the artistic skating seemed to be on the rise, and we are still seeing the result of this in choreography from Sandra Bezic and Lori Nichol who I believe skated in John Curry's show, and their students. Then figures were gone and by the 2000s, quads in men, triple-triples in women became a necessity, but late 2000s-early 2010s brought back artistry, programs and an advance in skating skills. Now it's jumps again, so I hope for another renaissance. Perhaps, if one had more data from earlier years, similar tendencies could be traced, but there is really not enough. I agree that archiving rules and results and removing videos from youtube doesn't help. You'd be hard-pressed to figure out e.g. how spins, steps and spirals were given levels circa 2010 OG, and this was only 15 years ago.