Alissa Czisny Update!

[chuckm]

Everyone here says she can't land a 3-3. The protocols I am looking at says she landed a 3T-3T in Omaha. It was ratified with no UR and plus GOE. So she can and did land a 3-3.

That was in the SP. Here's what she did in the FS: 3z, 2a+3t<, 3fe<↓, 3f<+2t+2t<, 3lo+2t, 2a, 3lo<<

I've heard several posters speak of Mirai's artistry. There was little artistry on display in the Nationals FS (I was there). She skated like a robot, with no expression either in her body or her face. But she was visibly devastated when she heard her marks. My take is that she has no realization of how badly underrotated her jumps are. If she doesn't recognize that she has a problem, there is no way that she is going to solve that problem.

 

[Nigel]

Mirai is a phenomenal artist, but that will count for little if she can't get consistent triples in combination. She needs to drop the 3Lo and 2A-3T (not worth the lost points) and either ditch or fix the 3-2-2, which wouldn't leave her with much in the realm of technical difficulty except for the 3Lo-2T. Yes, her spins are still great, but those only make up a tiny proportion of TES. Not even Yuna-esque artistry could compensate for the fact that Mirai will have less challenging jumps than some juniors, like Edmunds. Gao and Zawadzki, who can both land 80-90% of their 3-3 attempts, will skate all over Mirai at Nationals.

Mirai's LP 2013 US championships:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HeFWQROmYA
A bit businesslike. And, even in real time, you can see her turn her toe on the ice on a number of the jump landings
and the SP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFe1MqAbXbo
Definitely more perky, more energy and she seemed to feel more comfortable with the program over all.

Back to Czisny....
Will be interesting to follow her progress over the season

 

[ForeverFish]

Mirai's LP 2013 US championships:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HeFWQROmYA
A bit businesslike. And, even in real time, you can see her turn her toe on the ice on a number of the jump landings
and the SP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFe1MqAbXbo
Definitely more perky, more energy and she seemed to feel more comfortable with the program over all.

Back to Czisny....
Will be interesting to follow her progress over the season

Mirai was also ill with the flu during this performance, more so in the FS than the SP, so a lack of energy was definitely understandable. Honestly, I was immensely impressed that she could even stay upright with a raging fever, let alone attempt to land triple jumps.

 

[Jammers]

To often in the last couple years Mirai has skated like a zombie at times with no expression in her body or her face.

 

[Pepe Nero]

My criteria certainly does not include being on tenterhooks because my favorite skater is known for falls and/or URd jumps.

A great skater has these qualities:
- Consistent jumping ability (Alissa -1)
- Great spins and footwork (Alissa +3)
- Speed (Alissa -2)
- Ability to skate to different kinds of music (Alissa -1)
- Expressiveness (Alissa +1)
- Audience connection (Alissa 0)

Michelle Kwan had all these attributes in the +1 to +3 range

I don't think what you say is unreasonable, chuckm. Those are very good criteria. I have always wished there was some kind of originality or novelty criterion, so that it was not always about following convention or pleasing the crowd -- or the stifling judges. Of course, AC would do very poorly under such a criterion. Revolutionary Alissa Czisny is not. I still <heart> her.

I suppose that my hesitation in agreeing with you is that your schema judges AC against perfection (or at least against Michelle Kwan). Judging against perfection is fair, if you're doing that with everyone else. In my view, if you're judging all of the other current US ladies contenders against the same standard, there is no doubt (pending AC's return to 2010-2011 form, which I believe shows her potential, but which none of us, including me, is yet qualified to judge her ability to do) that AC is in the top three. As long as we don't fetishize triple-triples among the woman skaters (and, imo, 3T/3T is a dime a dozen and not worth any more than a 3Z/2T), then AC is a equal contender for the gold at US nationals in January 2014.

Let me add two (or three?) points: first, I think your (and most people's, I admit) judgment of AC's jumping ability might be unfair. AC is, yes, in a sense, inconsistent. But that's because we judge her against her own best, which is so much [expletive--self-edit] better than anyone else's. Lots of skaters fall a lot. But Alissa is "inconsistent" because when she doesn't fall she's so fracking good. In other words, the only reason people call Czisny inconsistent is that her highs are so darn high.

Your opinion on AC's audience connection -- well, I am not sure if my response should be "That's just your opinion," or "Who cares?". I feel connected when I watch AC, but I guess you don't. At the same time, I feel like figure skaters should be judged on what they do with their blades - not whether they convince ignorant crowds that they are the most entertaining. Maybe you disagree. Should we give Elvis Stojko all the medals?

Is AC a slow skater? I have never seen her skate live, and I know one can't judge from television - the focus of the camera makes everyone appear more or less to have the same speed. I have read (widely, on this forum) that she is average, speed-wise. I am hoping that AC gets a host spot at Skate America this fall because it would be close to me and I could see for myself.

To me, it's straightforward. If Alissa stands up on her jumps, she will medal at Nationals and make the Olympic team. Alas, I think the odds are against her accomplishing this.

Didn't you express elsewhere on GS, mathman, a contrary view? The view that Czisny would be judged more harshly by the US judges in 2014, a la Nagasu and Zhang in the recent past?

Agreed depending on the jumps - doubles stood up won't do it. If she skates cleanly she will be on the team no matter what with three spots. Her spins and flow and grance will earn her the spot - the odds of Gold, Wagner and Nagasu all skating clean are very slim - mind you better than Alissa probably skating clean lol.

As Jason Dungjen has pointed out, AC does not do doubles when she is in doubt. That's why she struggled so much at 2012 Worlds. She went for the triples. Also, Skater Boy, what is "grance"? Or did mean "grace," and simply fail to proofread your post? lol

That's true, ha! I'd rather watch a skater whose skating has the potential to move me even if my knuckles are turning white in the process than a skater who might hit everything but will be forgettable. It's just one of those sports - who cares if a skater wins a gold medal if the performance is blah?

Then again, I know some people are just never moved by Alissa because her style is too soft for them. Fair enough. I'm not one of them. Good luck Alissa!

Much love.

 

[chuckm]

I don't think what you say is unreasonable, chuckm. Those are very good criteria. I have always wished there was some kind of originality or novelty criterion, so that it was not always about following convention or pleasing the crowd -- or the stifling judges. Of course, AC would do very poorly under such a criterion. Revolutionary Alissa Czisny is not. I still <heart> her.

I suppose that my hesitation in agreeing with you is that your schema judges AC against perfection (or at least against Michelle Kwan). Judging against perfection is fair, if you're doing that with everyone else. In my view, if you're judging all of the other current US ladies contenders against the same standard, there is no doubt (pending AC's return to 2010-2011 form, which I believe shows her potential, but which none of us, including me, is yet qualified to judge her ability to do) that AC is in the top three. As long as we don't fetishize triple-triples among the woman skaters (and, imo, 3T/3T is a dime a dozen and not worth any more than a 3Z/2T), then AC is a equal contender for the gold at US nationals in January 2014.

Let me add two (or three?) points: first, I think your (and most people's, I admit) judgment of AC's jumping ability might be unfair. AC is, yes, in a sense, inconsistent. But that's because we judge her against her own best, which is so much [expletive--self-edit] better than anyone else's. Lots of skaters fall a lot. But Alissa is "inconsistent" because when she doesn't fall she's so fracking good. In other words, the only reason people call Czisny inconsistent is that her highs are so darn high.

Your opinion on AC's audience connection -- well, I am not sure if my response should be "That's just your opinion," or "Who cares?". I feel connected when I watch AC, but I guess you don't. At the same time, I feel like figure skaters should be judged on what they do with their blades - not whether they convince ignorant crowds that they are the most entertaining. Maybe you disagree. Should we give Elvis Stojko all the medals?

Is AC a slow skater? I have never seen her skate live, and I know one can't judge from television - the focus of the camera makes everyone appear more or less to have the same speed. I have read (widely, on this forum) that she is average, speed-wise. I am hoping that AC gets a host spot at Skate America this fall because it would be close to me and I could see for myself.

I have seen Alissa skate live on many occasions, and her speed is not average: she is one of the slowest skaters I have ever seen. IMO, one of the reasons why she is such an inconsistent jumper is due to her lack of speed going into her jumps. She herself is not completely confident when it comes to jumps, and she is so focused on landing her jumps that it detracts from her connection with the audience. Alissa is most appealing to the audience when she is spinning or doing her footwork.

My criteria was not intended to cite Kwan as 'perfection', because she was not perfect, but she was very, very good. Kwan would get + in every criteria I cited, but not +3 in every one.

How would I rate other skaters?

Consistent jumping ability Alissa -1, Wagner +2, Gold +1
- Great spins and footwork Alissa +3, Wagner +2, Gold +2
- Speed Alissa -2, Wagner +2, Gold +2
- Ability to skate to different kinds of music Alissa -1, Wagner +2, Gold-to be determined
- Expressiveness Alissa +1, Wagner +2, Gold 0
- Audience connection Alissa 0, Wagner +1, Gold -1

As Jason Dungjen has pointed out, AC does not do doubles when she is in doubt. That's why she struggled so much at 2012 Worlds. She went for the triples.

She fell on nearly all her triples---most of which were < or <<--- but also on the 2a. It wouldn't have mattered had she gone for doubles, because she would have fallen on those, too. She had zero ability to control the takeoff and landings of her jumps because the head of her femur was no longer in its normal position.

 

[Pepe Nero]

\She fell on nearly all her triples---most of which were < or <<--- but also on the 2a. It wouldn't have mattered had she gone for doubles, because she would have fallen on those, too. She had zero ability to control the takeoff and landings of her jumps because the head of her femur was no longer in its normal position.

You and I will have to agree to disagree, Chuckm. Correct me if I'm wrong (please!), but I think you changed both your criteria and your scores for Csizny in your most recent post. ?? Whatevs... We don't have to debate this.

I hope I get to see Alissa live at Skate America in Detroit this fall. When I think of slow skaters, I think of Caroline Zhang. I have nothing against CZ (in fact, I think US judges have effed her over the last two nationals), but I can detect the slowness of CZ even watching on TV. I have never noticed this about AC. AC has never appeared especially fast to me, but quite frankly, neither has Kostner, who everyone and their mother says is a speed skater. In other words, I'll believe it when I see it.

(Also, you are not the most trustworthy source on Czisny, chuckm. Ha, ha! It's okay. You probably feel how I feel about her as I feel about other skaters, like Jill Trenary. If Czisny ever won a world championship, I would cry foul too. But I still think AC should get some bronze lovin'. )

Oh, yeah, by the way. You (chuckm) don't know what would have happened had Czisny shot for doubles at Worlds 2012. Why? (1) Because no one, you included, is psychic. (2) Because you have no empirical support, because AC is not Kiira Korpi, doing doubles when she feels she's in trouble. Prove me wrong. I will watch your youtube citations and take back the claim I've asserted.

Show me AC turning multiple planned triples into doubles (either because of or not, an undiagnosed INJURY).

 

[Mathman]

Didn't you express elsewhere on GS, mathman, a contrary view? The view that Czisny would be judged more harshly by the US judges in 2014, a la Nagasu and Zhang in the recent past?

I think Alissa will be judged harshly if she does not land her jumps. If she does land her jumps, she could be U.S. champion.

Is AC a slow skater? I have never seen her skate live, and I know one can't judge from television - the focus of the camera makes everyone appear more or less to have the same speed.

Alissa often participates in local events at the Detroit Skating Club. You could catch her there -- well worth the trip. :yes:

As for her speed, I think that chuckm is right in saying that she approaches her jumps with great deliberation and concentration -- that is, she slows down. In an LP with seven jumping passes in in four minutes, that's a lot of slowing down. Also, her music choices are lyrical and languid rather than peppy.

Jason Dungjen is spot on about Alissa never backing down or bailing on her planned program. Even in a disaster like 2012 worlds, where we could have forgiven her if she had just stopped in the middle and walked off the ice in tears, Alissa gave 100% from beginning to end and took on each jump as if it were the only jump in the program.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

My take is that she has no realization of how badly underrotated her jumps are. If she doesn't recognize that she has a problem, there is no way that she is going to solve that problem.

I don't know if this is the case. Everyone, including Mirai, knows her jumps are borderline rotated even when fully credited. So I'm not sure that she can tell the difference between a .24 UR and a .26 UR, or a .49 vs .51 UR, which are minor differences rotation-wise but account for major scoring differences. From event to event a lot of us are surprised with how her jumps are scored; sometimes I think the judges are too harsh and other times I think she gets the benefit of the doubt.

 

[ForeverFish]

Oh, yeah, by the way. You (chuckm) don't know what would have happened had Czisny shot for doubles at Worlds 2012. Why? (1) Because no one, you included, is psychic. (2) Because you have no empirical support, because AC is not Kiira Korpi, doing doubles when she feels she's in trouble. Prove me wrong. I will watch your youtube citations and take back the claim I've asserted.

Show me AC turning multiple planned triples into doubles (either because of or not, an undiagnosed INJURY).

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here, but I agree with chuckm's assumption that Alissa's hip injury basically prevented her from landing any jumps, including the 2A. At this point, speculation is all we have, because we'll never know what WOULD HAVE happened had Alissa tried to double her jumps.

I don't have a problem with turning triples into doubles, a la Kiira Korpi--knowing when to bail on a planned triple jump is the mark of a seasoned skater. It's better to aim for a lower BV than to grit your way through for -3 GOE and a 1-point deduction.

 

[chuckm]

You and I will have to agree to disagree, Chuckm. Correct me if I'm wrong (please!), but I think you changed both your criteria and your scores for Csizny in your most recent post. ?? Whatevs... We don't have to debate this.

No, I didn't change a thing on either the criteria or the scores for Alissa. I COPIED those from your post, and simply added criteria scores for Wagner and Gold.

Oh, yeah, by the way. You (chuckm) don't know what would have happened had Czisny shot for doubles at Worlds 2012. Why? (1) Because no one, you included, is psychic. (2) Because you have no empirical support, because AC is not Kiira Korpi, doing doubles when she feels she's in trouble. Prove me wrong. I will watch your youtube citations and take back the claim I've asserted.

Show me AC turning multiple planned triples into doubles (either because of or not, an undiagnosed INJURY).

According to her doctors, Alissa Czisny had a torn hip labrum. I am not psychic, but do have a good grasp of how a torn labrum can affect a skater. The labrum is a piece of connective tissue that holds the head (top) of the femur in place in the hip socket. When the labrum is torn, normal hip movements become difficult and/or painful because the femur shifts repeatedly as the skater moves. In Alissa's case, she didn't particularly notice the pain, but was aware that her legs weren't supporting her when she tried to land her jumps. If you look at a video of her 2012 Worlds FS, you will see that when she spun in the air, then tried to land her jumps, her legs just gave out under her. That happened even with the 2a.

My point about the doubles is that Czisny would have had the same problems (falls, URs and DGs) IF she HAD tried doubles instead of triples. She went ahead with the triples even though at a "B" Challenge Cup event a couple of weeks before Worlds, Alissa had the same problems with her jumps in the FS: 1a, 2z, 3f<, 1a+2t, 3z↓, 3lo<<↓, 3lo<+sq. There, she singled both her axels, doubled one lutz and fell on the 3z. She was unable to land even one triple in that event.

Michelle Kwan also had a torn hip labrum, but in her case the symptoms started with pain in her hip. Because of the pain, she gradually stopped doing the 3lo and no longer did the standard layback spin. As the pain got worse, she even stopped skating for about 6 months. She was sent to the 2006 Olympics with a bye, but had to withdraw when the pain returned. Then she was diagnosed with the torn labrum and had surgery. She eventually resumed skating and contemplated a return to competition, but she couldn't skate at the same level as she had before the surgery, so she decided to go to college instead.

 

[fairly4]

Question.
Due,to,the,team,event how many lady skaters can,they send to the,Olympics?

I,know the U.S. qualified 3 in the,individual,event.
If the U.S. can,send,more,than,3 ,lets,say 4 for example than the 3 becomes a moot point.
Lets say it is ashley, gracie and christina for,the individual, so then we are talking about the spots on the Olympic team event the U.S. Federation had to pick them and specifically state they will be team only. So no matter who,does what we are essentialy talking about who the U.S. Will pick to skate ladies in team,event.
Does the number 2,3 ladied have to skate both individual,team if they so chose?

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

My point about the doubles is that Czisny would have had the same problems (falls, URs and DGs) IF she HAD tried doubles instead of triples.

I don't see why this would be the case. For the falls yes, but if someone can land an UR or DG triple why wouldn't they be able to land a clean double?

 

[Mathman]

Question.

Due,to,the,team,event how many lady skaters can,they send to the,Olympics?

I don't think the U.S. gets any extra skaters because of the team event. I believe the rules say that you have to make up the team out of the skaters that already qualified for the individual competition.

 

[chuckm]

I don't see why this would be the case. For the falls yes, but if someone can land an UR or DG triple why wouldn't they be able to land a clean double?

Because when a skater has a displaced femur due to a torn labrum, the skater has no control over the movement of that leg. The skater relies on muscle memory to execute jumps, but those muscle movements do not respond in the expected way, and the jump fails. In her 2012 FS, Alissa fell on those UR and DG triples, and she tried to land a 2a but she fell on that jump as well.

 

[chuckm]

I don't think the U.S. gets any extra skaters because of the team event. I believe the rules say that you have to make up the team out of the skaters that already qualified for the individual competition.

That is correct. But a maximum of two skaters/teams per discipline can compete in the team event.
The US has 3 ladies, 2 men, 2 pairs and 3 dance teams. Wagner could do the SP and Gold, the FS. The third lady would not compete in the team event.
Canada has 2 ladies, 3 men, 3 pairs and 3 dance teams. Many Canadian fans are hoping that Joannie Rochette will return for the team event, so that Kaetlyn Osmond could do the SP and Joannie the FS (IMO, this is unlikely to happen).

 

[MoonlightSkater]

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here, but I agree with chuckm's assumption that Alissa's hip injury basically prevented her from landing any jumps, including the 2A. At this point, speculation is all we have, because we'll never know what WOULD HAVE happened had Alissa tried to double her jumps.

I don't have a problem with turning triples into doubles, a la Kiira Korpi--knowing when to bail on a planned triple jump is the mark of a seasoned skater. It's better to aim for a lower BV than to grit your way through for -3 GOE and a 1-point deduction.

I actually disagree with this in most cases. I think that an occasional doubling or popping of a jump is okay. If it becomes a consistent trend or habit, and especially if it shows up often in practice, it is either a sign of a big technical issue or it is something that is likely to happen more often because it's become a mental barrier. Determination to rotate the jump goes a very long way in actually rotating it.

 

[ForeverFish]

I actually disagree with this in most cases. I think that an occasional doubling or popping of a jump is okay. If it becomes a consistent trend or habit, and especially if it shows up often in practice, it is either a sign of a big technical issue or it is something that is likely to happen more often because it's become a mental barrier. Determination to rotate the jump goes a very long way in actually rotating it.

I was referring to occasional competitions, not regular practices. While determination is always helpful, the fact remains that a wonky entrance into a solo jump, or a bad exit out of the first part of a 3-3, is very hard to correct--in many cases, especially involving inexperienced/new skaters, the be-all-end-all determination to power through it often results in more trouble than it's worth. This rule should generally be applied to combinations, since it's usually better to land a 3-2 with positive GOE than a UR'd or completely failed 3-3.

 

[ForeverFish]

I think Alissa will be judged harshly if she does not land her jumps. If she does land her jumps, she could be U.S. champion.

She definitely won't get the inflation that Ashley got this year--a necessary evil if three spots was the ultimate goal, but unfair nonetheless. One fall from Alissa and the federation will start having nightmarish flashbacks to 2012 Worlds.

ETA: But even in the unlikely case that Alissa lands ALL of her planned jumps, I don't see her beating Ashley, and probably not Gracie. The gap between them has widened too much to be spanned in a half season, especially for someone coming off of two hip surgeries, and the one-two punch of Wagner and Gold will be too powerful to overcome.

 

[MoonlightSkater]

I was referring to occasional competitions, not regular practices. While determination is always helpful, the fact remains that a wonky entrance into a solo jump, or a bad exit out of the first part of a 3-3, is very hard to correct--in many cases, especially involving inexperienced/new skaters, the be-all-end-all determination to power through it often results in more trouble than it's worth. This rule should generally be applied to combinations, since it's usually better to land a 3-2 with positive GOE than a UR'd or completely failed 3-3.

In the case of a combination I agree that a wonky entrance is a good reason to switch to a double. Beyond that I think it's important to go for it in most cases. If you're way off, you'll know it, and that will make the occasional pop for anyone. Skaters like Korpi, as lovely as she is to watch, often look a little too comfortable in their doubled jumps like nothing much was off to begin with. While muscle memory signalling that a jump is really on is a good thing, rarely will the jump be totally perfect, and it is a learned skill to make an imperfect jump work anyways.