Are the 3 American Ladies a Done Deal?

[chuckm]

I do not think it's fair that the Chinese federation can get away with cheating with the ages of skaters. Rachael Flatt was born just 20 days too late, and if the USFS had conspired to cheat on her age, she would be going to Worlds this year. In fact, she would have started in the JGP two years ago, and she might have been in the GP instead of the JGP this year.

The downside to age cheating is that sometimes the skater doesn't do well because of injury or other problems. Despite her premature start, Binshu Xu hasn't done well in her last couple of years. Her results in the GP weren't good, and she finished behind Yueren Wang at 4CC.

There have been many young Russian skaters also pushed hard at an early age who never developed into stars, but disappeared from the scene without explanation. I don't think the Russians cheat on age, but they do tend to pile expectations on their young skaters.

 

[feraina]

I don't think it's fair either that some federations adhere by the age rules and others don't. But how are you going to enforce that? Fudging of birthdates happen in other sports, too. I think it just doesn't make any sense to impose an age rule, which is in any case un-enforceable, and which only ties the hands of the fair players.

A much better solution, as I have said in other threads, is to bring back a real emphasis on artistic maturity. Bring the beauty, soul, whatever you want to call it, back into figure skating judging system! Children can learn jumps and spins and have great flexibility, but only years of study and training can help them attain artistic maturity -- and some never get there. Make it a key component of the scoring system, then young skaters would rarely make into the top tier of national competitions, never mind being very competitive at the international level.

It would also take the emphasis out of hard jumps and back/hip-breaking cortortionist moves in the training of young skaters, and focus more of their attention on the artistic aspect: choreography, music, audience connection, posture, etc. That would protect young skaters' developing bodies a lot more than some arbitrary age rule, which in any case is unequally enforced across countries.

 

[chuckm]

So it's OK by you that China cheats and gets to send their skater to the Olympics, while Yu-Na Kim and Mao Asada had to sit and wait?

I'll wait to see this wonder skater at JW (if she even gets shown). She has no ISU ranking, so it's unlikely that we will see her SP. If as you say she doesn't have a loop, she won't place high so we may not even get to see her in the FS.

If she finishes out of the top 12 in the SP, I'm not at all sure she'd make it to the top 10. The worst SP placement of a top 10 skater in JW 2007 was 11th, and the worst SP score in the top 10 was 41.76.

If she doesn't finish in the top 5, then I don't think she's a new Kim or Asada and is undeserving to go to the Olympics before her time.

 

[PolymerBob]

Back to the original question: From the posts I have been reading, it appears the 3 Americans are a done deal. But it will be a fierce struggle for 4th on down. It's almost like there are 2 competitions going on at once.

 

[feraina]

So it's OK by you that China cheats and gets to send their skater to the Olympics, while Yu-Na Kim and Mao Asada had to sit and wait?

No, not at all. I said in my previous post that I don't think it's fair. Nor is it fair that the young Americans have to sit out this year. My last post was about the enforceability of an age rule, not about fairness (as far as fairness is concerned, I totally agree with you).

I'll wait to see this wonder skater at JW (if she even gets shown). She has no ISU ranking, so it's unlikely that we will see her SP. If as you say she doesn't have a loop, she won't place high so we may not even get to see her in the FS.

Well, perhaps CCTV will carry it, in which case they would probably show their only ladies entry. Or even if they don't plan to carry it, if she does well enough to attract attention, CCTV might show a tape-delayed replay later.

If she finishes out of the top 12 in the SP, I'm not at all sure she'd make it to the top 10. The worst SP placement of a top 10 skater in JW 2007 was 11th, and the worst SP score in the top 10 was 41.76.

I think 41.76 is not impossible for her. She has a good 3Lz-2T, 2A, and high levels on spins and spirals. Plus she skates with speed and confidence (if not yet polish). I'm not forecasting she'll score above 41.76, but I don't think it's impossible either. We'll see.

If she doesn't finish in the top 5, then I don't think she's a new Kim or Asada and is undeserving to go to the Olympics before her time.

I think even now we can say that she's probably not a new prodigy like Kim or Asada. It's just in the relatively barren landscape of Chinese ladies skating, she's head and shoulders above the rest.

By the way, we don't actually know that she's under-age. When I first found out about her last year, it was mentioned she was 12, and I was curious when her exact birthday was. I did a pretty thorough web search back then but couldn't find any information about her birthdate. As far as I know, there is still no reliable source on line about this. For all we know, the initial information that she was 12 could've been months out of date.

We don't know whether the Chinese federation fudged her birthdate, and if they really did, then we're not likely to ever find out for sure either. This is what I meant but enforeceability. How do you make sure that individual federations don't play around with young, obscure skaters' birthdates long before they get any attention from the outside?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I do not think it's fair that the Chinese federation can get away with cheating with the ages of skaters. Rachael Flatt was born just 20 days too late, and if the USFS had conspired to cheat on her age, she would be going to Worlds this year. In fact, she would have started in the JGP two years ago, and she might have been in the GP instead of the JGP this year.

The downside to age cheating is that sometimes the skater doesn't do well because of injury or other problems. Despite her premature start, Binshu Xu hasn't done well in her last couple of years. Her results in the GP weren't good, and she finished behind Yueren Wang at 4CC.

There have been many young Russian skaters also pushed hard at an early age who never developed into stars, but disappeared from the scene without explanation. I don't think the Russians cheat on age, but they do tend to pile expectations on their young skaters.

I think all of this goes back to Ms Lipinski who was hyped to the hilt about being the youngest Oly winner. Unfortunately, this brought about the Rush to Get the Young Ladies to winning status at very young ages. They didn't take into account that there was not much to Tara's skating without the 3rx3r. Skaters must develop with age.

Joe

 

[netnuts]

. Unfortunately, this brought about the Rush to Get the Young Ladies to winning status at very young ages. They didn't take into account that there was not much to Tara's skating without the 3rx3r. Skaters must develop with age.

Joe

For female skaters, you have to 'rush' before growth spurt. Many, if not most female skaters' peak is before 'growth spurt' phase, after that, lots of them's skating career is going downhill no matter how hard they try due to change in bodies.

It is RARE for female skaters to blossom after growth spurt.

 

[Sdongxie]

But the loop is the solo jump required for Junior Worlds this year, so Bingwa will be at great disadvantage in the short program already. This is also her first international event ever, so judges will not be so generous with PCS either. And if she is truly age eligeable (which I have doubts) why did the Chinese federation not send her to the JGP circuit earlier this season? That would have been a much more valuable experience for her.

I've heard that the Chinese federation intended to send another skater to JGP circuit. But that skater injuryd herself in late August. So there was no chance for Bingwa to compete in the JGP circuit.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

For female skaters, you have to 'rush' before growth spurt. Many, if not most female skaters' peak is before 'growth spurt' phase, after that, lots of them's skating career is going downhill no matter how hard they try due to change in bodies.

It is RARE for female skaters to blossom after growth spurt.

I believe what you are confirming is that Ladies Figure Skating is a Little Girl's Sport. That is often brought out by other sportscasters implying that it is not a sport but a form of little girls' pagaent.

Unfortunately, it kills the concept of a sport for all the other divisions which do not have that problem.

Joe

 

[Sandra_persch]

I believe what you are confirming is that Ladies Figure Skating is a Little Girl's Sport. That is often brought out by other sportscasters implying that it is not a sport but a form of little girls' pagaent.

Unfortunately, it kills the concept of a sport for all the other divisions which do not have that problem.

Joe

Well if the 2006 Olympics is any indication, than it is not a little girls sport.

 

[PolymerBob]

Well if the 2006 Olympics is any indication, than it is not a little girls sport.

Well, yes and no, and no and yes. Three mature ladies took the podium in Torino ......... after having been beaten by a little Japanese girl in the Grand Prix who was too young to compete.

 

[chuckm]

But that little Japanese girl who romped in the GP could not win the Championship of her country at Nationals that year, and in March, she couldn't defend her JW title and lost it to a little Korean girl.

 

[Mathman]

But that little Japanese girl who romped in the GP could not win the Championship of her country at Nationals that year, and in March, she couldn't defend her JW title and lost it to a little Korean girl.

So would Asada and Kim have gone 1-2 in Torino if they had been allowed to compete?

About figure skating being a "little girl's sport," I don't see how this claim can be contested. Only a few boys figure skate. Only a few adults figure skate. 90% of everyone who laces up are little girls.

 

[netnuts]

Unfortunately, it kills the concept of a sport for all the other divisions which do not have that problem.

Joe

Gymnastics & diving are all 'little girls' sports... I don't hear lots of complaints there.

 

[chuckm]

Gymnastics bumped the minimum age up to 16, so it's no longer a little girls' sport.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Gymnastics & diving are all 'little girls' sports... I don't hear lots of complaints there.

I'm not against little girl sports but that's what it is if people are worried about puberty being the end of the technical. I was referring to Men's whom I never heard a complaint about puberty and certainly not Pairs and Skate Dance.

Joe

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Well if the 2006 Olympics is any indication, than it is not a little girls sport.

Indeed, and the winner in her twenties, used strategy. Why not? But when you think about it, were there any teenyboppers in that competition? irina, sasha all over 20.

Joe

 

[Skye]

Gymnastics & diving are all 'little girls' sports... I don't hear lots of complaints there.

After seeing what Kimmie is going through after she became World Champion at 16 and all the hype that burdened Caroline at Nationals, I certainly do not want figure skating to become a 'little girls' sport. As much as I think it's a shame that such talented girls like Mao and Yu-Na could not go to Torino, and would have enjoyed the excitement they would have added had they been able to participate, I agree with the current age rule and believe it should be enforced to every skater from all federations equally.

Back to the topic, I would love for Rachael Flatt to pull out an upset when everybody has their eyes focused on the other two. She is not as fast as Mirai and neither has amazing spins like Caroline, but her jumps are much cleaner and the way she pays attention to the music is not fully reflected in her PCS. And if there's anybody I'm feeling sorry for about the age rule, it would be Rachael who misses Worlds by only three weeks!

 

[Mathman]

About children's sports, I would have to say that all sports are for children. There are literally hundreds of millions of children world wide who play soccer. How many adults play with any kind of seriousness? Some, but a miniscule percentage compared to the number of children (which might be a billion for all I know).

Some athletes are good enough to prolong their childhood by playing baseball for the New York Yankees or by playing basketball in the NBA. They are professional entertainers. (They often act like children, but that's another question.)

 

[feraina]

Back to the topic, I would love for Rachael Flatt to pull out an upset when everybody has their eyes focused on the other two.

I think she could do quite well. She beat Mirai in the LP both at the JGPF and National's.

I think it's a matter of who happens to put out the best two programs. They all have amazing abilities and are head and shoulders above the rest!