Article on Sasha Cohen

[Mathman]

Oh, of course. Worlds. I get those two mixed up.

Thanks for the correction, GKelly. I just spent some time checking on the early history of the modern Olympics. No ice skating in 1912, no Olympics at all in 1916, and in 1920 the Swedish ladies swept the podium at the summer Olympics. First winter Olympics in 1924. Actually, I didn't know all that until just a minute ago. Thanks.

Mathman

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

First Winter Olympics in 1924, and the Second one in 1928 came with the salchow heard round the world: Sonia Henie.

Joe

 

[BronzeisGolden]

Rgirl,

I was actually thinking about Nicole when I wrote my last post. There have been several pre-ordained ice priestesses that haven't quite made it and that clearly shows that an article such as this certainly isn't dependable or all that accurate. Sure, they are fun to read if you are a casual fan...or even a serious fan SERIOUSLY into the skater that is the focus...but other than that I generally skip these. Another skater that comes to mind is Tiffany Chin...wasn't everybody just wild about her after the 1984 Olympics? I've never seen footage of any of her performances but I've always heard she was extremely talented. I've also heard some nasty stories about an over-bearing mother! So, if anyone has a more informed view on Tiffany Chin, I'd love to hear it. Another example (although to a much lesser degree, because I do believe she proved her worth on the ice) is Oksana Baiul. I remember a slew of articles and interviews that alluded to the notion that she might contend for Gold in multiple Olympics. How quickly (and unexpectedly) viewpoints and situations change.

 

[RealtorGal]

No ice skating in 1912, no Olympics at all in 1916, and in 1920 the Swedish ladies swept the podium at the summer Olympics.

Ice skating at the SUMMER Olympics. What a concept! I'm trying to visualize it!

2000! POSTS

 

[Rgirl]

Thanks, Windspirit and Registered, for the info on Raitsin. Bummer about his visa problems. Hopefully Vladimir Petrenko has helped Sasha. After all, just as in everything, there are conditioning experts and then there are conditioning experts. Windspirit, your example of the skater with all the "problems" is a great one of how it's not just seeing that there is a problem--hell, we've got who know how many people on the various FS forums who are experts at that, lol--but seeing what is actually causing the problem as well as how to fix it. And in my experience, and as others have said, every skater is unique.

Actually, two of the most intelligently trained athletes I ever saw were Martina Navratilova and the ballerina extraordinaire, Natalia Makarova. Both used a concept called "specificity" in training especially well. Martina would practice tennis wearing a two to five-pound weight vest. This way she was increasing her endurance by playing with the added weight (important that it was a weight vest, so the weight was close to her center of mass and wouldn't throw her balance off or put strain on the ligaments) and increasing it SPECIFICALLY for the activity for which she needed it: tennis. It's important to increase your strength and endurance off the ice, but ultimately you want to improve these things specific to being on the ice and doing the choreography for your program. BTW, as Lavendar said, Sasha we should wait and see how Sasha does this year and I agree. OTOH, these principles apply to all skaters; it just so happens we're discussing Sasha.

Makarova would do things such as use weight training for her upper body in such a way that it mirrored the kinds of movements she had to do in a long ballet. For "Swan Lake" she used several machines, some that weren't even designed for the upper body, and move through the positions she would need for "Swan Lake," which requires a lot of time with the back arched, the arms streched behind the body, and undulating. Makarova knew that the more strength she had in these specific musicle groups in these specific positions, not only would she have the endurance to do the arm moves throughout the entire ballet but that also she would be able to better work with the muscles to achieve subtle movements and the floating quality needed especially for "Swan Lake."

Both Navratilova and Makarova used many other specific methods to train; those are just two examples.

I was actually thinking about Nicole when I wrote my last post. There have been several pre-ordained ice priestesses that haven't quite made it...Another skater that comes to mind is Tiffany Chin...wasn't everybody just wild about her after the 1984 Olympics? So, if anyone has a more informed view on Tiffany Chin, I'd love to hear it. Another example (although to a much lesser degree, because I do believe she proved her worth on the ice) is Oksana Baiul...How quickly (and unexpectedly) viewpoints and situations change.

Another great post, BG. I don't know a lot about Tiffiny Chin but I did see her live at '84 Nationals. BTW, I think you meant "before the '84 Olympics," not after, yes? Roz Sumners won the silver in an extremely close decision in '84 to Kat Witt's gold. I think it was as close as Nancy to Oksana, IIRC. Anyway, at '84 Nats, Tiffany was without a doubt the crowd favorite. In fact the person who went with me could not understand why Tiffany didn't win. She was both an explosive and lyrical skater--a rare combination--who had a great flair for performance and connecting to the audience. In fact, she reminds me of Oksana Baiul. But it was the jumps where she lacked consitency. I was still dancing then so wasn't paying as much attention to skating, but I do know that a lot of people were heartbroken as fans when Tiffany didn't live up to her potential. Hadn't heard about the mother before--could be part of the reason.

And absolutely, to echo what both you and Windspirit said, though in different ways. Things can change so quickly and ITA with Windspirit that throughout the culture, disposability and short attention spans are promoted. Cars are leased so people can have a new model every year. Record labels insist a singer be an instant hit and sign one or two CD deals, whereas labels used to invest in a singer or band. Shows on TV have three or four weeks, if that, to make it. With a few exceptions, athletes are hot one year and traded the next. And making things into products, I could not agree more. That's one of the reasons I love Johnny Depp, for one, as an actor. He went through being a product (teen idol) and was so repulsed by it and had the family background (his mother) to say, "I will quit acting before I let them to this to me again." I think his, and a few others at that level, rejection of going the product route is what is one of the major things that has kept his career both interesting and successful. I think Michelle's decision to leave Frank had perhaps a little something to do with that concept. Although I don't think Frank or Lori was trying to make her into a product the way the Hollywood hearthrob machine does, I do think Michelle wanted to make decisions for herself about her choreography and her training. For me, whenever a skater of Michelle's level of success wants to shape her own choreography and career by seeking out and choosing with whom she wants to work, it's a win for individual expression and a statement against people as product. I think Sasha too felt that what she wanted as a person was with Tarasova after what was originally supposed to be just two weeks of work--she's said on a number of occasions that she felt she was in the right place with Tarasova--and to me that too speaks to Cohen's desire to be her own best competition. Of course a skater doesn't have to change coaches to do that, but some do. Some do too much, as we saw with Nicole Bobek.

Actually, going back to what Lavendar said, even we, or at least I, have a bit of the "hurry up and be a champion" attitude towards Sasha. It's easy to forget, I think, that most elite skaters--and there are darn few of them--start skating at age five or younger whereas Sasha didn't start skating until she was nine. And while her early years in gymnastics certainly gave her beautiful lines and great flexibility (even if some don't like the way she uses it), it's hard to make up for not having those early years on the ice, especially when the differences among the top five or six skaters in the world are really very small. We and some of the judges may see Michelle in a class by herself, but skill for skill, the top ladies are all so amazingly good that in terms of improving enough to make the difference between one or two places at Worlds can be a matter of one tenth of 1% better consistency; same with speed, edging, jumps, whatever.

OTOH, because of the increased physical demands of skating (3/3s and quads for ladies), skaters have shorter competitive careers, in general, and I think this will continue unless the COP truly does reward great skating skills and not just jumps. I think skating is at an important juncture with the COP. If it does promote the well-rounded skater and significantly decreases the reward for high injury elements such as certain 3/3s and quads, then skating has the opportunity to see skaters enjoy long competitive careers again. If the COP continues the high reward for 3/3s and quads, I think we will continue to see skaters with career ending hip injuries at 16 and those who don't suffer that fate have relatively short competitive careers. I'm hoping for the former.
Rgirl

 

[hockeyfan228]

Martina would practice tennis wearing a two to five-pound weight vest. This way she was increasing her endurance by playing with the added weight (important that it was a weight vest, so the weight was close to her center of mass and wouldn't throw her balance off or put strain on the ligaments) and increasing it SPECIFICALLY for the activity for which she needed it: tennis.

Ty Cobb used to train in the off-season by putting weights in his shoes during his daily runs, so that he was fleet of foot during the season, which helped his base stealing. (I'm sure he also practiced sharpening his spikes.)

 

[tharrtell]

I think specificity in training is quite common these days. Lance Armstrong trains with weights, but uses them to build strength without bulk because in cycling bulk slows you down - especially when climbing hills - keeping the muscle to body mass ratio as high as possible. He trains the muscles that will help his cycling, but absolutely nothing more.

I just assumed that a similar approach would be used with skaters. Train the muscle groups that will make a stronger skater/jumper, but don't train all muscle groups as I'm imagine that excess muscle mass would be a deterrent.

The amount of science in training these days is pretty amazing, IMO. The knowledge of what will benefit vs. hinder performance. I'd think a knowledgeable off ice trainer could really benefit a skater.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Wow, this thread is getting nitty gritty on making life miserable. I remember my old Russian ballet teacher who used to say that way back in Petrograd he would be doing plies with sand bags attached. I guess it is, what ever it takes....

Joe

 

[Grgranny]

Yes, we heard a lot about Tiffany's overbearing mother. I can't remember any specific thing but I know they showed things she was doing and just really put Tiffany down all the time. Also, they decided at one time that Tiffany's feet were somehow not right and going to Dr's. to work on them. Don't remember if they helped or it was just an excuse.

 

[hockeyfan228]

Wow, this thread is getting nitty gritty on making life miserable. I remember my old Russian ballet teacher who used to say that way back in Petrograd he would be doing plies with sand bags attached. I guess it is, what ever it takes....

Joe

My teacher's father was a teacher and physical therapist, and she told me that he had his dancers do a lot of exercises in swimming pools, so that their backs and joints weren't stressed. Sounds better in a hot tub, though.

 

[Rgirl]

Ty Cobb used to train in the off-season by putting weights in his shoes during his daily runs, so that he was fleet of foot during the season, which helped his base stealing. (I'm sure he also practiced sharpening his spikes.)

And running with weights in one's shoes can do serious damage to one's knee ligaments because of the added momentum from the extra weight in the feet pulling on the ligaments in the knees. Muhammed Ali trained like this when he was Cassius Clay and almost ruined his knees till a new trainer came in and explained why they shouldn't do that and how they could get the same effect without hurting Clay/Ali's knees (run with the weight close to the center of mass). A lot of "great old training" regimens, like don't drink water during a game, did more harm than good, so you have to be careful what you recommend. But thanks for posting that, Hockeyfan. I think it shows that even though someone who was very successful at doing something in the past is not necessarily the way people should do things now.
Rgirl

 

[Rgirl]

I think specificity in training is quite common these days. Lance Armstrong trains with weights, but uses them to build strength without bulk because in cycling bulk slows you down - especially when climbing hills - keeping the muscle to body mass ratio as high as possible. He trains the muscles that will help his cycling, but absolutely nothing more.

I just assumed that a similar approach would be used with skaters. Train the muscle groups that will make a stronger skater/jumper, but don't train all muscle groups as I'm imagine that excess muscle mass would be a deterrent.

The amount of science in training these days is pretty amazing, IMO. The knowledge of what will benefit vs. hinder performance. I'd think a knowledgeable off ice trainer could really benefit a skater.

Great example of Armstrong's approach Tharttell. You know, I would think a similar approach would be used in figure skating, too. But actually, modern sports science really only started picking up steam in the early '80s and 20 years isn't that long. I agree with you that there is a great deal of amazingly useful information out there, espeically compared to 20-30 years ago, but at least in figure skating, it is being used by only a few. I

But even in tennis during the '80s, Martina Navratilova was criticisized for being too much of a "machine" because she sought out cutting edge training techniques and played tennis "like a man." Of course a lot of that was aimed at her homosexuality, but it's only been with the advent of Serina and Venus Williams that big strong girls were considered "okay" and even sexy by some. But it's still Anna Kournikova in the bra on the billboard.

Anyway, in skating, at least from what I've seen, modern training techniques have not trickled down the way they have in most other Olympic sports. I think a lot of it is because the older coaches get most of the top skaters and they tend to stick with whatever worked for them. In fact, there is often a negative toward "those people in labs and white coats who think they know everything about training a skater" (overheard a coach saying this at the Chelsea Piers rink last year. All through the 1990s, the Russians eschewed full run-throughs with jumps (which OT reminds me, in the "Chat with Sasha" thread she says she does full runthroughs four days a week, but she doesn't say if it's full runthroughs with jumps; last year Tarasova mostly had her doing runthroughs without jumps). I know, Tarasova is not a singles coach. But even Michelle did not have an off-ice trainer until last season. And look at the difference! At least I see a big difference in both her body and her skating.

It seems like a no-brainer. You have both scientists and athletes working at nothing but how to better train athletes, yet in sports that are heavy on tradition, like figure skating, you have many of the most powerful coaches and even many of the younger coaches with absolutely no knowledge of modern training methods. Coaches and athletes in sports like cycling, skiing, running, anything that depends on equipment and are based on time, seem to be more open to new training methods, which i think comes from them always being interested in faster bicycles, faster skis, etc., which naturally transfers over into training. Plus they can easily meausre what works and what doesn't--time. In sports like figure skating, there's a big emphasis on coaches' "secret methods," even though everybody knows what everybody else is doing. I also think some/many top coaches have the kind of ego where if they were to say, "I'm going to get someone in here with knowledge of modern scientific training methods to help" it would diminish their power. It's like doctors refusing to recognize new or poorly understood illnesses. It makes no sense, it doesn't help anybody, but given the personalities involved, you can see how it happens.

A couple of examples:
1. You would think that when the Scotvolds turned around their whole approach to runthroughs after Paul Wylie won the silver at the '92 Olympics after the Scotvolds changed his training to full and double runthroughs with jumps the year before the Olympics that the Scotvolds would say, "Hey, this might work with Nancy!" But nope, it took Nancy's meltdown at '93 Worlds for them to do the same thing with her and of course it made a phenomenal difference.
2. Why are figure skaters doing 3/3s and quads on boots designed at best for single jumps? The design of skate boots has not changed in any meaningful way since the 1940s. There are hinged skated boots (most of you have heard my harangue on this before) that have been studied and shown to more evenly distribute the landing forces thourhout the ankle, knee, hip, and lower back instead of concentrating them on the hip. The only thing holding back the used of the hinged skate boot is tradition.

Also, ask yourself this: As a triathlete and Iron Man competitor, there are trade magazines out there devoted strictly to all aspects of training, yes? They have articles based on the latest research, who's doing what, etc. Is there a comparable publication in skating? No.

There are several books, but the best of them, IMO, "Conditioning for Skating : Off-Ice Techniques for On-Ice Performance"
by Carl Poe was only published in 2002. Other books on elite training for skaters, which vary on how sophisticated the information is, include:
"Be a champion figure skater!" by Robert X Weaver, Figure Skating Judge for the USFSA
"The Inner Champion" by Choeleen Loundagin
"Figure Skating: Championship Techniques" (Sports Illustrated Winners Circle Books) by John Misha Petkevich
"The Ultimate Guide to Weight Training for Skating" by Robert G. Price.

But there are no montly, bimonthly or quarterly magazines devoted to training techniques for figure skating, nor are there websites or e-zines, and IMO, while books are good, the only way to keop up with the ever evolving sport is with a periodical. And for figure skating, there isn't one. To me, that says a lot.

I started out in dance science and medicine, which is a REALLY tradition-bound world. When I added figure skating I too assumed that as athletes, the skaters and coaches would be open to modern training methods, certainly much more so than dancers and dance insructors. Boy, was I surprised. In some ways, skating was an even more closed world than dance. I'm hoping that as skaters like Michelle use off-ice trainers that more will coaches will follow suit. But then, dancers didn't follow Makarova's innovative work with sports trainers and she was considered the great ballerina of her generation. IMO, it's strictly a psychological barrier. For the sake of the skaters' success and health, I hope the present level of resistance does not continue.
Rgirl (we need a soapbox emoticon, lol)

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

My teacher's father was a teacher and physical therapist, and she told me that he had his dancers do a lot of exercises in swimming pools, so that their backs and joints weren't stressed. Sounds better in a hot tub, though.

Water exercises do help. I worked on entrechat six in the pool all summer until I got it!

Joe

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Regarding making a skater jump higher. I don't believe that is an easy chore. I will admit that Callahan did get Jenny to jump higher but not to the point where one would call her a high jumper. I would guess a jump therapist could improve the height of a jump for a skater but it is limited.

I do believe a therapist would be able to explain the anatomy which makes some people jump higher than others. There has to be a working of the body below the waist that enables some people to jump higher than others.

Imo, Cheng Li has the natural body for high jumps despite his small size. Ilia Klimkin has the body to hang a jump in the air.
Tara, who had small jumps could spin in the air to get the rotations. Diferent jumps for different people.

Joe

 

[skatepixie]

I personally think Kwan has gone DOWN in level this last season.

Off ice training has some value. However, i think the risk of injury and loss of time for on ice training can out weigh doing it to a huge extend.

What do you mean by hinged skate boot? Can I see a pic? Because if it distributes yr weight diffrently it might "throw off" us skaters who trained on a standard boot. It would also be hard for coaches to teach with something so diffrent.

 

[Mathman]

What do you mean by hinged skate boot? Can I see a pic? Because if it distributes yr weight diffrently it might "throw off" us skaters who trained on a standard boot. It would also be hard for coaches to teach with something so diffrent.

I have questions about the hinged boot (or "clap-boot"), too, Pixie. I don't have a picture, but here is a desciption of it, as used by speed skaters (in the box "Technical issues" on the left).

http://www.olympics.org.uk/sports/winter/speedskating.asp

The blade is attached to the boot only at the toe, and when you lift up your heel in stroking, the back of the blade separates from the boot, then it snaps back by a spring. So the idea in spped skating is that the whole length of the blade makes contact with the ice longer, so you can get more thrust with each stroke.

I think this would feel pretty weird for figure skating moves, especially landing jumps, where your blade would strike the ice first, then your heel would come down on the back of the blade.

But even if this exact model is not the answer, it seems like people should be doing research into making equipment that distributes stress better.

Mathman

 

[windspirit]

But even in tennis during the '80s, Martina Navratilova was criticisized for being too much of a "machine" because she sought out cutting edge training techniques and played tennis "like a man." Of course a lot of that was aimed at her homosexuality, but it's only been with the advent of Serina and Venus Williams that big strong girls were considered "okay" and even sexy by some. But it's still Anna Kournikova in the bra on the billboard.

Despite her success in the sport, or lack thereof... Someone mentioned her in one of the threads, but I don't remember which, so I'm going to take this opportunity and reply here. Last season there was a program (on one of the sports channels) about her trip to some island where she posed for sexy photos. So far so good. Now, some game (broadcasted live) that was scheduled before that program run additional 30 minutes. O-key. I thought they're going to cut her program, since it was a total fluff (on a sports channel -- I can't stress that enough). Did they? Nooo. What did they cut? The program I was waiting for that was scheduled after Anna's: a skating competition (and it was live, too, if I remember correctly). Now, that's not a sport, eh? Kournikova baring her ass in tropics was more important. I really, really wondered who's calling the shots in that sports station -- teenage boys with their hormones run amok?

Well, it seems like we really do need that soapbox emoticon. http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/windspirit6/sm/soapbox.gif

The blade is attached to the boot only at the toe, and when you lift up your heel in stroking, the back of the blade separates from the boot [...]

Hmm... I'd have to see it, because from this and other descriptions it seems like the whole thing is rather unstable... Stroking in boots like that I can imagine, but landing jumps?

 

[lavender]

I personally think Kwan has gone DOWN in level this last season.

Of course you personally think this.

 

[Mathman]

Martina Navratalova -- you sexy thing! -- she won the mixed doubles at Wimbleton this year at age 46. She must be doing something right.

About marketability, there were some figures released a couple of weeks ago about the "most marketable female athletes in the U.S." Number 0ne was Serena Williams, with Venus at number 4.

Michelle, the only figure skater on the list, was number 7.

Mathman

 

[skatepixie]

Of course you personally think this.

Theres no "of chorse" about it...Its not like I decided "Hey, Im not gonna like a skater..Inny, meenie, minnie, moe, Pick Michelle!" I didnt. I dislike her for a reason. That is...shes boring...