Bonus for innovative elements | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Bonus for innovative elements

Ummm....it has ALWAYS been required to do that number of spins and step sequences in a program. The same number of jumping passes was pretty much required in the past as well. Ladies have always done at least 7 (except in the cases of Tara and Sarah at the Olympics, where they only did 6 because of completing two 3-3 combinations and not feeling they needed an additional 2Axle) and the Men have generally done at least 8.

If anything the new system has limited the amount of jumping a skater can do. I remember plenty of programs from the 80's that had 10+ jumping passes. Scott Hamilton's program at the 1983 Worlds (it's on Youtube) had 12 jumping passes. Skaters actually used to do a LOT of random double jumps and single axles before the 90's. In recent years before the CoP, people who messed up on a jump pass would often throw another one in at the end of their programs. You can't do that anymore...the new system forces skaters to NOT leave out choreorgraphy in place of an extra jump.

But that's the point i was making - that the new system limits jumps so you aren't going to get a skater including a big tuck axel, or highlight jumping move in case it is counted as one of their juming passes.

The same goes for movements that skaters used to use in their programs - some spinning movements that used to be used as transitions or highlighting a change in music are now steered clear of since a tech specialist might deem it a level one upright spin and then discount the final intended spin a skater has planned. If you are favouring a prescriptive system, such a system by its very definition does not promote innovation, it promotes cookie cutter sameness. Has the innovation mark ever been given?

Ant
 
The point deduction on sequences is entirely valid, imo. It's much easier to do a Triple-Triple sequence than it is a Triple-Triple combination.


Really? Do you think a triple axel/triple toe is more difficult than a triple axel/half loop/triple flip???

Ant
 
This rule might be in place in case someone lands a quad loop or something like that. That sure would be "rare" and even unique. (It says innovative or rare, so being rare should be enough.) In fact, when a woman lands a quad of any kind or a combo with 3A it can IMO be considered rare. Each has been executed only once in senior competitions. (Ando did the quad once. Asada did a 3A-1T combo.)

But i don't think a quad loop is innovative and neitehr do the writers of COP - the quad loop has a tariff in the scale of values so if a skaters completes that move then they get those points. Surely something cannot be innovative if its already in the book?

Ant
 
GKelly said "If the skater accidentally has to take a step out of the landing of the 3lutz, that's a mistake on the landing of the 3lutz and should be reflected with a negative grade of execution for the lutz. "

Zuranthium replied: No, that's not necessarily true at all. Someone can do a 3Lutz with no problems on the landing and just not be feeling they are in the right position to do another jump right away. Hence, having to take a step or two in order to complete the next jump.

I think the bit in Bold is the point Gkelly was making - if you do not feel you are in the right position on the landing of the triple lutz to do a combination, then that is an error that causes you to take a step between the jumps turnign it into a sequence.

When would anyone ever land the first jump perfectly and decide to turn it into a sequence over a combination unless there was a mistake on the first jump or something didn't quite feel rigth so you decide to play it safe with a sequence?

Ant
 
I do feel the half loop sequence move does take pressure off the skater. I would go so far as to say it also gives the skater a breather.

I do like the sequence half loop. It is a musical step if used properly. But it is easier than bang bang combo.

Joe
 
I do feel the half loop sequence move does take pressure off the skater. I would go so far as to say it also gives the skater a breather.

I do like the sequence half loop. It is a musical step if used properly. But it is easier than bang bang combo.

Joe

I agree that depending on the jumps involved a sequence is normally easier than a combination (certainly sequences that have steps/turns as opposed to a half loop) but i also think that the jumps done in a sequence are more difficult than the jumps done in isolation so in descending order of difficulty you would have:

1. Triple jumps in combination;
2. Triple jumps in sequence;
3. Two solo triple jumps.

Ant
 
When would anyone ever land the first jump perfectly and decide to turn it into a sequence over a combination unless there was a mistake on the first jump or something didn't quite feel rigth so you decide to play it safe with a sequence?

You wouldn't, if you were planning a combination. Especially in a short program where a true combination is the required element.

So if you take a step in between jumps in the short program, it's obviously a mistake and deserves -2 or -3 GOE, and also being scored as a sequence rather than a combination. (Under the current rules, total value of both jumps multiplied by 0.8 instead of full value; what I'd prefer would be that the sequence loses the combination bonus or gets a smaller bonus, along with the mandatory GOE reduction of at least -2.)

In the long program, sometimes the same kinds of problems cause skaters to add a step in between the jumps of a planned combination as a mistake. If the result meets the rules for a jump sequence (only half a turn on the ice at a time, maintained rhythm), then score it as a sequence rather than a combo, and since sequences are allowed in the LP there's no mandatory GOE reduction but if it looks uncontrolled or like a step out of the landing, then give -1 or -2 as appropriate.

And sometimes skaters do plan jump sequences with falling leafs or the like into toe loops or loops on purpose. It may be because they get so little flow out of the preceding jump even when landed cleanly that they need the extra hop in between to regain momentum for a good double toe.

(I believe this was the case with 13-year-old Michelle Kwan and her lutz sequences in the long program, which were better than her lutz combos in the short that year, and also with broken-toed Kwan in 1998 on one of her two triple loops. In this case, it's worth adding a relatively easy falling leaf-double toe to the end of a triple jump that's hard for the skater to complete in true combination, because that allows her to repeat a difficult triple that she can land cleanly, just not with combo-worthy speed. You'll also see the same reason with many preliminary or pre-juvenile skaters, or even some juveniles and intermediates who are weaker jumpers, who can't yet pull off double-double combinations but can put the double toe in sequence, e.g., axel, falling leaf, double toe.)

Also, skaters might choose to because that's the only way they could put a triple toe as the second jump. E.g., I remember Tonya Harding wasn't doing any combos in her 1994 long program but did have double axel, falling leaf, triple toe. Which allowed her to repeat the triple toe.

Or it may be because they just think that the rhythm of jump-hop-hop-jump perfectly fits the music at a certain point and jump-jump, or solo jump, does not.

Anyway, none of this is about the innovation bonus, which would be for a brand new type of element. My point is that the new system *could*, with fairly minor tweaks, do a lot more than it currently does to avoid cookie-cutter programs and reward creativity in the ways the moves are arranged and combined.
 
I think the bit in Bold is the point Gkelly was making - if you do not feel you are in the right position on the landing of the triple lutz to do a combination, then that is an error that causes you to take a step between the jumps turnign it into a sequence.

When would anyone ever land the first jump perfectly and decide to turn it into a sequence over a combination unless there was a mistake on the first jump or something didn't quite feel rigth so you decide to play it safe with a sequence?

Something like a 3Lutz/3Toe is a hard combination. Maybe the skater got distracted, maybe they have nerves, who knows. The point is, someone can land a solid 3Lutz and just not be feeling the 3Toe right away. In which case they have to take steps into it and the 3Toe itself should be deducted as a sequence but the 3Lutz should receive full credit.

Really? Do you think a triple axel/triple toe is more difficult than a triple axel/half loop/triple flip???

A Triple Axel/half loop/Triple Flip is a combination. The decision to count things like that as a sequence is something which needs to be changed in the new system.
 
I do feel the half loop sequence move does take pressure off the skater. I would go so far as to say it also gives the skater a breather.

In comparison to what?

All that a half loop does is allow the skater to use a Salchow or Flip as the 2nd (or 3rd) jump in their combination, as opposed to a Toeloop or Loop.
 
In comparison to what?

All that a half loop does is allow the skater to use a Salchow or Flip as the 2nd (or 3rd) jump in their combination, as opposed to a Toeloop or Loop.
I didn't say it didn't allow another jump of the skater's choice. It could even be a Wally but that does not get points. What it does is phrase the music for an additional jump when if the skater is musical. It's not difficult and sets up the inside jumps easily. The combo jumps are what I call bang bang and if you land the first one badly you are not going to make the second one. With a bad landing on the first one, a half loop can save the day.

I believe we are getting closer to the scoring of Diving. There really is no need for music, imo.

Joe
 
The combo jumps are what I call bang bang and if you land the first one badly you are not going to make the second one. With a bad landing on the first one, a half loop can save the day.

If you are planning a 3Lutz/3Toe and mess up on the first jump, a half loop to "cover it up" means you need to do either a 3Sal or 3Flip as your next jump if you still want a 3-3 combination. Good luck on suddenly pulling off one of those from a faulty landing that has probably drained a lot of your momentum....
 
If you are planning a 3Lutz/3Toe and mess up on the first jump, a half loop to "cover it up" means you need to do either a 3Sal or 3Flip as your next jump if you still want a 3-3 combination. Good luck on suddenly pulling off one of those from a faulty landing that has probably drained a lot of your momentum....

Bu tunlikely to get a triple. Was Brian Joubert really going for triple axel/half loop/double sal the season before last? I suspect he wanted the 3a/3t but saved landing of the axel left him with a double sal instead.

Bonaly was a another master of throwing in a half loop or even a single loop to the end of faulty jump to tack on a double toe and call it a combination/sequence.

Ant
 
A Triple Axel/half loop/Triple Flip is a combination. The decision to count things like that as a sequence is something which needs to be changed in the new system.

You may call it a combination but COP calls it a sequence, hence why i called it a sequence.

Ant
 
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