I don't see why Chan should have GOE advantage over Hanyu
Chan v. Hanyu: 2015-16
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I don't see why Chan should have GOE advantage over Hanyu
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- Dec 29, 2011
SkateFiguring said:
Nah.
Both are pretty much getting +3's on their clean quads, neither is going to get an advantage here (rightfully so). And then the other jump with the full GOE value is... the 3A. That explanation writes itself. If PChan ever scores higher on his 3As than Hanyus does on a completely clean one all the judges need to be send to a eye specialist with no chance of ever returning (I'd doubt very much that that will happen though).
And out of 8 jumping passes, PChan has 3 that get the full GOE value, while Hanyu has 5. That alone would make a difference if you think both deserve similar GOE on well executed jumps (and GOE comparison on well executed jumps is the point of this, not the likelihood of landing all their jumps).
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- Nov 19, 2010
Cummunitively. He generally has good jump quality and, outside the air positions, more intricate entries and immediate footwork following while Hanyu's jump quality tends to suffer with fatigue.
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- Jun 21, 2003
OK, you got me on this one.
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- Feb 25, 2014
The only jump I think suffers are his Lutzes (that he had some wonky problems with last season) and occasionally the flip. The loop and especially the Axels (he will almost NEVER miss those and, while Han's are great, Yuzu's are collectively the best in the men's discipline) in the second half are typically of the highest quality. Also, for me–when he's on–his quads are superior to Patrick's as well in terms of how effortless they look. It's incredible.
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- Mar 23, 2010
If I am a judge, i'd reward higher GOEs for Patrick's 4T3T vs Hanyu's (& everybodies') 4T on a relative basis just base on theoretical grounds that the big combos under COP are generally under valued. I wonder if the judges do this? 4S on the other hand is harder to say.
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- Mar 7, 2015
i agree here… Patrick's biggest combo is stellar…. nobody even comes close to it…
also, Patrick usually has a great lutz, a great flip as well …. which are the jumps that the other contenders tend to not hit as well as him if i am not mistaken…. so yes… these triple jumps are becoming less and less factors in quad era but we will see what happens…. nobody talks about the other factors…. what will be the effect of Chan's return on the psychological mind of other skaters? will they feel the pressure? will they think about the possibility that Chan will not up his BV but land everything and they have to be flawless this year??? this is all speculation… and of course exciting but NOBODY can predict what will happen… come on
so many people seem to have the absolute truth about the future
also, Patrick usually has a great lutz, a great flip as well …. which are the jumps that the other contenders tend to not hit as well as him if i am not mistaken…. so yes… these triple jumps are becoming less and less factors in quad era but we will see what happens…. nobody talks about the other factors…. what will be the effect of Chan's return on the psychological mind of other skaters? will they feel the pressure? will they think about the possibility that Chan will not up his BV but land everything and they have to be flawless this year??? this is all speculation… and of course exciting but NOBODY can predict what will happen… come on
so many people seem to have the absolute truth about the future
They don't. The reason Hanyu does a 4T on it's own vs 4T+3T is that putting the combination on the second half gives him a bonus. Also, he has very difficult entry into his 4T so he can use 4T as a solo jump. Many skaters are forced to put 4T in a combination simply because the requirement of solo jump preceded by connecting steps in SP.
Also, his quad toe often has a less-than-stellar landing. His axles are generally in a better position for a follow-up jump.
That said, I agree there's no sign that the big combos were getting extra credit last season. Guys were getting burned in the short for doing the quad combo because if you popped that triple into a double, it left you with fewer points than the guys doing the lutz combo in the bonus. Hence, fewer quad and, for that matter, triple axle combos in the short. One of the negative side-effects of giving out bonus in the short program. (And apparently, the long as well).
That said, I agree there's no sign that the big combos were getting extra credit last season. Guys were getting burned in the short for doing the quad combo because if you popped that triple into a double, it left you with fewer points than the guys doing the lutz combo in the bonus. Hence, fewer quad and, for that matter, triple axle combos in the short. One of the negative side-effects of giving out bonus in the short program. (And apparently, the long as well).
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- Mar 7, 2015
agreed with everything you said...
ISU needs to redefine COP to give credit to harder combos.
ISU needs to redefine COP to give credit to harder combos.
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- Nov 19, 2010
You got me on this one. I meant cumulatively of course. I knew I wrote something wrong but I was rushing out the door.
As well, any PCS, and GOE advantages if Chan gets back on his previous level jump wise, are not big. A successful quad trumps many sins. Add another quad or two and a perfect 3A, a monstrous TES will be Hanyu's.
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- Feb 24, 2012
ONe could easily the same pc wise though too. When Chan is on with the triple axel it is pretty amzaing but I agree BV and tes favours Hanyu and should if he is on
I'm pretty sure judges are going to be very generous with Hanyu too; that PCS gap is not going be large and Hanyu is more than likely to overcome it with TES even if falls. Not if he bombs, if course, but he will have a cushion for a few minor mistakes. If they both have very flawed skates: well, we saw what can the outcome be at Sochi (in which case let's hope Javi or Denis have a good skate and get ahead.)
My prediction: SC: Chan > Hanyu, GPF: Hanyu > Chan, Worlds: no idea
Chart masters, how about a statistical comparison between Hanyu vs Chan GOE?
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For fun I pulled both Hanyu and Chan's jump GOE and scores from SkateDB threw them into a dashboard. You can sort by jump to compare their GOE across all their competitions, or select competitions.
https://public.tableau.com/views/Jumps/JumpStats?:embed=y&:display_count=yes&:showTabs=y&:toolbar=no
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- Mar 7, 2015
really cool !
Is this FS only or SP and FS？
It has to be both since Yuzuru's 3A has a Max GOE of 3.00, which has only happened in the SP.
It was both at first and I added an additional filter now if you want to look only at SP or FS.
Also sorted the competitions by chronological order rather than alphabetical.
4CC? Do you think there is a chance Yuzuru takes part in it this season?
I think he probably won't because Japan has only 2 Worlds spots and they will want to put other skaters out there.
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