Chan v. Hanyu: 2015-16

[OS]

I have a very different opinion of Hanyu's journey as a skater. Watching the World's 2012 was amazing, but he's faster now, with better posture, more stamina, better jumping technique and better programs and better control over his arms and hands in time to the music.

In 2012-2014 he had Parisienne Walkways, electrifying and energetic, and now we have the Chopin program which is full of his own personal musical interpretation. He changes the choreo with Jeff and also on his own each time to convey something different.
Now with Seimei it's even better.

Patrick too has programs this year that are better than any I have seen from him before.

But if, as you say, Patrick does not compromise art for sport...is he compromising sport for art?

Makes me think of Machida who did everything for the music and for the integrity of the program as an art-form but it proved an extremely risky strategy that only worked once that season before he retired.

Hanyu says he wants to show certain things in his program, (delicacy, strength, music) but he never said he wants to be an 'artist' which I agree with...because that's something he will have ample time to tackle in exhibitions and after he retires. Since figure skating is a sport, after-all. If art is achieved as a side-product, then its a bonus we can all enjoy.
After he retires he intends to have a long pro-career and work with as many skaters as possible (according to the Nobu-Yuzu-Shoma tea-party interview).

I really like Hanyu's Chopin and raved about it since the beginning, but I see it as something that is Patrick Chan influenced, perhaps because it is a style Patrick has dominated and made such a strong and indelible impression. (or the fact it happened to be choreographed by Buttle too)

Artistry is under valued under COP anyway. It is practically a luxury where some of the best work are from those who made it, who can afford to develop it vs a strategy focuses entirely on chasing for points. Those who are successful in it are rarely justifiably awarded consider the amount of effort put into it vs just having another favorable competition/judging panel to bridge the gap. So perhaps it is natural then for Patrick who can afford to develop it now because he is more advanced in his career.

Same with Hanyu, it is only now he got the OGM, he can now afford to experiment more, like with Seimei (which I sort of see it as his 'homage to Korea' post Olympic Yuna Kim program. Something from his own culture, rarely seen globally, more of himself in it, the progress of developing it is more satisfying than winning another medal, or pleasing the judges). My first impression of Parisienne Walkaway was actually that it was 'too trying' and 'objectifying' rather than felt like a natural progression. That program is 2 years too early for him I think but then I suppose the team's strategy is forcing him to make the leap from seen as a manchild to a man readying for the Olympic season to compete with the big boys including Plushy. The thing is the technical arsenal Hanyu has, he could have skate to anything and would have worked. Not a fan of repeat programs, nor a fan of inflation, and as much as I really love Hanyu, I definitely felt 2012-2013 season was inflated and gearing up to the Olympics with massive helps and support from Japan federations, at the expense of some of their own best skaters include Daisuke at home events.

 

[Blades of Passion]

It seems he realistically thinks about including it in competition in future if Brian allows him to practice it now in season time

I wonder what his jump layout would look like with a 4Loop in it. Maybe this:

4Loop
4Sal
3Flip
-----
4Toe
3Axel+3Toe
3Axel+1Loop+3Sal
3Lutz+3Toe
3Loop

His base value would increase by 5 points from the current 3-quad layout he plans. Terrifying.

 

[alia jackson]

I'm glad that Yuzu himself chose Seimei. This compilation of two Seimei practices is how the ideal programme looks like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvkCejzJQ6E

With Seimei we got a fierce, a soft lyrical and a foxy Yuzu .

 

[Rissa]

4Loop
4Sal
3Flip
-----
4Toe
3Axel+3Toe
3Axel+1Loop+3Sal
3Lutz+3Toe
3Loop

My eyes just crossed. If his 4Lo was as good in competition as it looks in practice, this layout may be no harder for him than this year's. The biggest problem would probably be the last combo because he'd be out of juice for it.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

I wonder what his jump layout would look like with a 4Loop in it. Maybe this:

4Loop
4Sal
3Flip
-----
4Toe
3Axel+3Toe
3Axel+1Loop+3Sal
3Lutz+3Toe
3Loop

His base value would increase by 5 points from the current 3-quad layout he plans. Terrifying.

And the element I'd be most worried about is the 3Lz3T

If I got it right, that would be a 84.45 BV in jumps only. If he gets everything lv4, it would be a BV of 100.35... so far that's higher than or equal to what most guys got in total TES at their best. And Yuzuru could get crazy GOE too. Scary thought
If that's not a 'if I go clean, I'm unbeatable' plan, I don't know what is

 

[Blades of Passion]

My eyes just crossed. If his 4Lo was as good in competition as it looks in practice, this layout may be no harder for him than this year's. The biggest problem would probably be the last combo because he'd be out of juice for it.

Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking. It almost doesn't seem like the 4Loop would actually take more out of him than a 4Toe? Especially since he'd know he wouldn't have to do any quad in combination! It would perhaps just be the last jump combo that would be the real extra difficulty. Seems totally worth it if his 4Lo is very consistent in practice, although maybe it would hurt the consistency of his 4Toe trying to include that many different types of quads. Not sure. Exciting to think about.

 

[TheGrandSophy]

exactly... maturity, refinement is much more important IMHO than winking at the audience or flapping arms around

Who does that describe then?

 

[Interspectator]

Who does that describe then?

The only guy in recent memory who does that is Vornov...and I liked it!
I like refinement...but I also like SASS! One is as good as the other if it matches the music.

 

[TheGrandSophy]

The only guy in recent memory who does that is Vornov...and I liked it!
I like refinement...but I also like SASS! One is as good as the other if it matches the music.

Thanks, Newbie. But, in the context of the convo, I wondered who 4everchan was meaning?

 

[Rissa]

Maybe this:

4Loop
4Sal
3Flip
-----
4Toe
3Axel+3Toe
3Axel+1Loop+3Sal
3Lutz+3Toe
3Loop

One thought though: This sort of layout is just begging for zayaking... He'd have think on his feet really fast in case of tripling any of the quads. His current layout is pretty zayak proof.

 

[4everchan]

4everchan was meaning nobody in particular here... as in context of the convo we were escaping the chan vs hanyu but talking about artistry or interpretation. As said, earlier, for some people interpretation is having an arm movement or a facial expression or a jump on a precise point of the music.. creating a higlight in choreography... for me, interpretation is not shallow mimicking as described... it's really about seizing the meaning, the emotion of a piece and transcend it... it goes through a deeper rendition of the music... a global interpretation.... os168 has a similar explanation... there are different styles... some that can appeal to the masses and some that appeal to a specific kind of people... i am more into flow, maturity and refinement creating an overall experience of a piece of music than choreographic highlights that mimic the music... ( i am not pointing fingers at anyone in particular here, just saying that for me the overall experience is more important and it happens that I personally get that from watching Chan... (and some others) but not everyone, including some that are mentioned in this forum for being apparently the best artists out there )

Thanks, Newbie. But, in the context of the convo, I wondered who 4everchan was meaning?

 

[TheGrandSophy]

4everchan was meaning nobody in particular here... as in context of the convo we were escaping the chan vs hanyu but talking about artistry or interpretation. As said, earlier, for some people interpretation is having an arm movement or a facial expression or a jump on a precise point of the music.. creating a higlight in choreography... for me, interpretation is not shallow mimicking as described... it's really about seizing the meaning, the emotion of a piece and transcend it... it goes through a deeper rendition of the music... a global interpretation.... os168 has a similar explanation... there are different styles... some that can appeal to the masses and some that appeal to a specific kind of people... i am more into flow, maturity and refinement creating an overall experience of a piece of music than choreographic highlights that mimic the music... ( i am not pointing fingers at anyone in particular here, just saying that for me the overall experience is more important and it happens that I personally get that from watching Chan... (and some others) but not everyone, including some that are mentioned in this forum for being apparently the best artists out there )

Ah, I see. Whilst some skaters e.g. Takahashi appeal/ed to the masses due to their shallowness, you see a deeper interpretation in Chan (and some others). Got it.

 

[4everchan]

appealing to the masses is not necessarily bad... i loved dice... don't misinterpret what i am saying... i think he was a great interpreter... one doesn't exclude the other...

Ah, I see. Whilst some skaters e.g. Takahashi appeal/ed to the masses due to their shallowness, you see a deeper interpretation in Chan (and some others). Got it.

 

[daphenaxa]

4everchan was meaning nobody in particular here... As in context of the convo we were escaping the chan vs hanyu but talking about artistry or interpretation. As said, earlier, for some people interpretation is having an arm movement or a facial expression or a jump on a precise point of the music.. Creating a higlight in choreography... For me, interpretation is not shallow mimicking as described... It's really about seizing the meaning, the emotion of a piece and transcend it... It goes through a deeper rendition of the music... A global interpretation.... Os168 has a similar explanation... There are different styles... Some that can appeal to the masses and some that appeal to a specific kind of people... I am more into flow, maturity and refinement creating an overall experience of a piece of music than choreographic highlights that mimic the music... ( i am not pointing fingers at anyone in particular here, just saying that for me the overall experience is more important and it happens that i personally get that from watching chan... (and some others) but not everyone, including some that are mentioned in this forum for being apparently the best artists out there )

lol

 

[TheGrandSophy]

appealing to the masses is not necessarily bad... i loved dice... don't misinterpret what i am saying... i think he was a great interpreter... one doesn't exclude the other...

4everchan, whilst perhaps your intention was not such, phrases such as 'shallow mimicking' and 'appealing to the masses' have negative connotations even to the extent of maybe making people think of cheap hacks. So that description will be somewhat provocative, shall I say. Anyway, I will leave it there.

 

[Marin]

Honestly Takahashi was one of the greatest artists on the ice maybe of all time and for me Yuzuru has much more personality than Patrick ...that's for sure. Watching Patrick from the beginning of his career to current times leaves me nothing but cold, I am like "hey Patrick, I know you have outstanding edges but I have seen this performance from you 3 years ago, what is new? show me versatility" .and yes, I get pleasure from Patrick's skating when I only watch him below ankles because of his (edges, ss) the rest nothing exciting for me

 

[Li'Kitsu]

One thought though: This sort of layout is just begging for zayaking... He'd have think on his feet really fast in case of tripling any of the quads. His current layout is pretty zayak proof.

Not really - if he triples the 4T or 4S just change the last combo to 3Lz2T, if he triples the 4Lo do 3Lz + 3Lo2T. That shouldn't be any problem for him. If he triples at least 2 of those quads, then it gets more complicated though.

 

[Perdita]

I don't know if this makes sense to anyone but personally, I always thought Chan's skating is postmodern deconstruction figure skating. It's not about representing music.

Anyways, it will be a great dissapointment if Chan doesn't attept three quad in SC.

 

[giulia95]

Cough cough! I am so proud and honored to be part of the vulgus that admires, loves , adores legendary Dai and that thin boy with an angelic face and flapping wings …:shocked:

Honestly I was not aware some skaters are so sophisticated and intellectual that Kant’s categories and trascendental idealism are required to catch their superior artistry

 

[MaxSwagg]

Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking. It almost doesn't seem like the 4Loop would actually take more out of him than a 4Toe? Especially since he'd know he wouldn't have to do any quad in combination! It would perhaps just be the last jump combo that would be the real extra difficulty. Seems totally worth it if his 4Lo is very consistent in practice, although maybe it would hurt the consistency of his 4Toe trying to include that many different types of quads. Not sure. Exciting to think about.

Rumors are he may replace the 3F with the 4Lo and have 4 quads...I can't see Brian allowing that though.