Chan v. Hanyu: 2015-16 | Page 48 | Golden Skate

Chan v. Hanyu: 2015-16

  • Thread starter Thread starter OS
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
He was pretty much saying "they have good jumps but everything else sucks and when I come back you'll see "complete" skating again." And don't even THINK about comparing that to Max (people never pass an opportunity to attempt to smear him).
 
Last edited:
Uhh I hope you don't mind being distracted from the 'who can interpret Patrick Chan better contest' , but I'd love to talk about their skating programs a bit, and their contrasting qualities.

I really enjoy revisiting their different approaches to devise their programs. Having reflected it a bit, it really says alot about the skaters, their mind set and where in the career they are.

Patrick's 3 cuts edit of Chopin consist of
Scherzo no.1
Revolution Etude. Both written in between 1831-1832 around the same time as Hanyu's Ballade No.1 SP (1831).
Both written when Chopin was just age 22, literally between Hanyu and Patrick's current age, 20 and 24 respectively. They were composed during the time of Chopin's home country Poland failing uprising against Russian Empire, where I presume Chopin experienced some loneliness and helplessness having just moved to Vienna. Although the work themselves has never been formally attributed to these happenings, it is nevertheless in the title, and it is up to the listeners to make what of the musical descriptions and what they may be inspired by. It was a period of stylistic change for Chopin, transitioned from calm, serene, brilliant to dramatic, dark and somber tonal quality, passionate, fervent. I can only contemplate his mindset given everything that has has been going on at the time.
Then there's Opus 28 (1839 when Chopin age 29. Apparently written when he was ill, 2 years just after Beethoven's passing... and a special piece of music Chopin has requested to be played at his own funeral), wiki list it was when
Chopin essentially established a new genre with his own set of free-standing preludes (Op. 28, published 1839). He exploited the poetic potential of the concept of the concert étude, already being developed in the 1820s and 1830s by Liszt, Clementi and Moscheles, in his two sets of studies

One can only speculate the discussion Patrick and David Wilson has when come up with these particular music construct for Patrick's return to the sport. Of these 3 particular edits. Perhpas it is Patrick's own story to tell that is why it worked so well for me even at first time? It is about burying the past, have his revolution and uprising, however hopeless it can be before saying good bye to the sport? Hopefully without regret? To me at least his performance isn't convoluted with symbolism in choreography, features, but the whole thing flows seamlessly despite 3 different pieces. It was literally about him embodying the essence in the music and became the concept itself, in its simplicity, isolation and purity. Confident in his own virtuosity like Chopin was, moodiness, unapologetic and completely devoid of pretension... his commanding delivery became the virtuoso himself.

When you compare to something like Seimei, it seems too trying in encompassing symbolism, features, highlights, and packaged like a Michael Jackson program which really tells the artistic approach differences, the mindset of the chaser, the overdoing/thinking of an young aspiring master excited to put together an epic work, an epic journey. Their programs are true to who they are.

For me, right now

Hanyu is Michael Jackson, Elvis Presley, the Beatles.
Patrick is Gene Kelly, Dean Martin, Frank Sinatra.

Hanyu is Jazz. Patrick is Classicso.

Hanyu is Matisse, Picasso, Chagall, Kandinsky, Alessi. Patrick is Rembrandt, Vermeer, William Morris, Bauhaus.

Hanyu is Visace, Dolce Gabbana, Jean Paul Gaultier, Cavalli, Sandy Powell. Patrick is Prada, Fendi, Armani, Ferragamo.
(Mind you... i think I am being too kind with their fashion tastes. They are more like 'where ever Liberace shops' vs Gap!)

Hanyu is Vogue, Patrick is Text book.

Hanyu is Disney/Universal, Patrick is Natural History Museum.

Alot to enjoy from both for very different things...
 
Last edited:
come on guys… how can a very nice post from specs, showing the post competition hug, can lead to like 3 pages of chan bashing… ??? i read the articles just like everyone else and to me it means:

"I am sky diving and doing lots of exciting things on my year off. Enjoying not being a competitive skater"
"I skimmed through the programs but the sport hasn't evolved since I have left it…" (and actually that is TRUE… there were no real enhancement in technical skills or a breakout program last year in the men's competition, as opposed to Liza's 3A, P/C great free dance or D/R upgrades in technical elements…in the men, it was same old, same old…

where is he saying that the skaters are bad? nowhere… he is simply saying that it wasn't a crazy year for men…

but of course, if you are a chan hater, bash bash away… ;)

I just think Chan is a bit ...not self-aware when he makes comments like this.
His comeback LP was wonderful and great and he should be proud of himself.
But with his comeback is he pushing the sport technically? 1 quad, 1 3A
Is he doing a theme or a program that has not been done before; is he showing something new? I think he's showing the same qualities and themes as before. Jazz and bluesy for the SP and Classical Chopin for the LP.
There is nothing wrong with staying within his comfort zone and doing what he does best, but did he think of that when he poo-pooed other skaters for doing the same thing he was planning to do for his comeback?

For example, both Yuzu and Javi are pushing the envelope technically with 3 quads and Yuzu with 2 3As which is a harder layout than anyone has ever tried this year (barring Boyang) plus he is trying a new style he has not tried before.
Javi's SP is a Spanish themed piece that he has worked hard on over the summer with specialist to make as authentic as possible. Will it be a success? At least he is trying.

I don't think Chan said what he did with any kind of ill-will but his comments are unfortunate because they show that he is not paying attention to his surroundings and how his own actions and words will affect how people view him.
 
well...

to me, no other skater has ever skated to chopin the way chan has ... so it's new :) as far as the tech content is concerned : chan is building up. we will see what he brings up over the next couple years... i would like to see how the other skaters would fare after skipping two WCs and coming back to GP season.... i feel that many fans here are unreasonably demanding... this is a skater who hasn't competed since sochi 2014, 18 months or so ago... and what? you expect him not only to be as good as before but have even more challenging elements?

seriously.
I just think Chan is a bit ...not self-aware when he makes comments like this.
His comeback LP was wonderful and great and he should be proud of himself.
But with his comeback is he pushing the sport technically? 1 quad, 1 3A
Is he doing a theme or a program that has not been done before; is he showing something new? I think he's showing the same qualities and themes as before. Jazz and bluesy for the SP and Classical Chopin for the LP.
There is nothing wrong with staying within his comfort zone and doing what he does best, but did he think of that when he poo-pooed other skaters for doing the same thing he was planning to do for his comeback?

For example, both Yuzu and Javi are pushing the envelope technically with 3 quads and Yuzu with 2 3As which is a harder layout than anyone has ever tried this year (barring Boyang) plus he is trying a new style he has not tried before.
Javi's SP is a Spanish themed piece that he has worked hard on over the summer with specialist to make as authentic as possible. Will it be a success? At least he is trying.

I don't think Chan said what he did with any kind of ill-will but his comments are unfortunate because they show that he is not paying attention to his surroundings and how his own actions and words will affect how people view him.
 
well...

to me, no other skater has ever skated to chopin the way chan has ... so it's new :) as far as the tech content is concerned : chan is building up. we will see what he brings up over the next couple years... i would like to see how the other skaters would fare after skipping two WCs and coming back to GP season.... i feel that many fans here are unreasonably demanding... this is a skater who hasn't competed since sochi 2014, 18 months or so ago... and what? you expect him not only to be as good as before but have even more challenging elements?

seriously.

That is not the point. I have no problem with Chan doing what he does best... but what he is saying is that he is not impressed with the current men's field doing what they do best.
It goes both ways.

Nothing special, no offense? That could be said about Chan's technical content and his musical choices this year.
BUT, obviously it is special, it is brilliant...it's just too bad Chan couldn't appreciate brilliance from his peers.
 
for me, as a musician, i hear the music very differently... i don't want to associate these thoughts with the skaters as they didn't pick the music or at least, didn't make the cuts I would assume

scherzo, e minor prelude, revolutionary etude

Program made to show both flow with the fast runs (16th note passage work) in the fast section and lyricism in the prelude... i rarely like mixing and matching pieces like that but it is done somehow respecting chopin's own writing style ABA (fast-slow-fast) also, the prelude and etude are quite short, and of course, the scherzo is much longer but a representative segment of the music has been chosen, so we get the true essence of the piece

for the ballade, a gorgeous piece of music, i am left on my appetite. there is no iteration of the most gorgeous theme of the piece, the real lyrical climax of the piece. it makes...sort of like missing destiny... missing fulfillment... so the music itself in its cuts doesn't tell the story of the ballade, inspired by a poem from a polish author ... this is definitely not something that most people care about... but you know what? not having the main lyrical theme in the piece is such a missed opportunity and a misunderstanding of the emotional content of the piece... here's a version : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ce8p0VcTbuA this is played by zimerman a great Polish pianist and probably one of the best interpretation of the piece.... enjoy the journey... and perhaps you will see what is missing here... ie just after 3 :00 then a bigger statement 4:42 and then lastly at around 6:00... so there you are. there is so much meat in between as well but in the actual cuts, all we get is the little waltz section that if gorgeous is not the essence of the piece which is glorious and triumphant , not subdued and delicate
Uhh I hope you don't mind being distracted from the 'who can interpret Patrick Chan better contest' , but I'd love to talk about their skating programs a bit, and their contrasting qualities.

I really enjoy revisiting their different approaches to devise their programs. Having reflected it a bit, it really says alot about the skaters, their mind set and where in the career they are.

Patrick's 3 cuts edit of Chopin consist of
Scherzo no.1
Revolution Etude. Both written in between 1831-1832 around the same time as Hanyu's Ballade No.1 SP (1831).
Both written when Chopin was just age 22, literally between Hanyu and Patrick's current age, 20 and 24 respectively. They were composed during the time of Chopin's home country Poland failing uprising against Russian Empire, where I presume Chopin experienced some loneliness and helplessness having just moved to Vienna. Although the work themselves has never been formally attributed to these happenings, it is nevertheless in the title, and it is up to the listeners to make what of the musical descriptions and what they may be inspired by. It was a period of stylistic change for Chopin, transitioned from calm, serene, brilliant to dramatic, dark and somber tonal quality, passionate, fervent. I can only contemplate his mindset given everything that has has been going on at the time.
Then there's Opus 28 (1839 when Chopin age 29. Apparently written when he was ill, 2 years just after Beethoven's passing... and a special piece of music Chopin has requested to be played at his own funeral), wiki list it was when

One can only speculate the discussion Patrick and David Wilson has when come up with these particular music construct for Patrick's return to the sport. Of these 3 particular edits. Perhpas it is Patrick's own story to tell that is why it worked so well for me even at first time? It is about burying the past, have his revolution and uprising, however hopeless it can be before saying good bye to the sport? Hopefully without regret? To me at least his performance isn't convoluted with symbolism in choreography, features, but the whole thing flows seamlessly despite 3 different pieces. It was literally about him embodying the essence in the music and became the concept itself, in its simplicity, isolation and purity. Confident in his own virtuosity like Chopin was, moodiness, unapologetic and completely devoid of pretension... his commanding delivery became the virtuoso himself.

When you compare to something like Seimei, it seems too trying in encompassing symbolism, features, highlights, and packaged like a Michael Jackson program which really tells the artistic approach differences, the mindset of the chaser, the overdoing/thinking of an young aspiring master excited to put together an epic work, an epic journey. Their programs are true to who they are.

For me, right now

Hanyu is Michael Jackson, Elvis Presley, the Beatles.
Patrick is Gene Kelly, Dean Martin, Frank Sinatra.

Hanyu is Jazz. Patrick is Classicso.

Hanyu is Matisse, Picasso, Chagall, Kandinsky, Alessi. Patrick is Rembrandt, Vermeer, William Morris, Bauhaus.

Hanyu is Visace, Dolce Gabbana, Jean Paul Gaultier, Cavalli, Sandy Powell. Patrick is Prada, Fendi, Armani, Ferragamo.
(Mind you... i think I am being too kind with their fashion tastes. They are more like 'where ever Liberace shops' vs Gap!)

Hanyu is Vogue, Patrick is Text book.

Hanyu is Disney/Universal, Patrick is National History Museum.

Alot to enjoy from both for very different things...
 
Last edited:
well...

to me, no other skater has ever skated to chopin the way chan has ... so it's new :) as far as the tech content is concerned : chan is building up. we will see what he brings up over the next couple years... i would like to see how the other skaters would fare after skipping two WCs and coming back to GP season.... i feel that many fans here are unreasonably demanding... this is a skater who hasn't competed since sochi 2014, 18 months or so ago... and what? you expect him not only to be as good as before but have even more challenging elements?

seriously.

Well...Mao's been out for 17 months and her 3A looks better than ever, her 3Lz edge has improved as well. It's her same content but it seems her technique has improved. It may not be the same case for both of them, but is achievable :biggrin:
I personally would like to see Patrick get back to the level he was before, the other men will only get better as the season goes on, and I think so will he. SC can be nothing but a motivation for him.
 
mao is not asked to do new quads she's never done

patrick was planning 2 4ts 1 3 a and 2 3lz... how is that lower than before in terms of content? that's pretty much what was planned at sochi or was he then doing 2 3f? i don't remember if it were 2 flips then he is even better than before... yup he tripled one jump but he did a better 3 axel than in sochi... so???
Well...Mao's been out for 17 months and her 3A looks better than ever, her 3Lz edge has improved as well. It's her same content but it seems her technique has improved. It may not be the same case for both of them, but is achievable :biggrin:
I personally would like to see Patrick get back to the level he was before, the other men will only get better as the season goes on, and I think so will he. SC can be nothing but a motivation for him.
 
Last edited:
as far as i m concerned, this season, and last, i havent seen anything close to chan's teb 2013 or sc 2015... sorry ... my opinion
That is not the point. I have no problem with Chan doing what he does best... but what he is saying is that he is not impressed with the current men's field doing what they do best.
It goes both ways.

Nothing special, no offense? That could be said about Chan's technical content and his musical choices this year.
BUT, obviously it is special, it is brilliant...it's just too bad Chan couldn't appreciate brilliance from his peers.
 
mao is not asked to do new quads she's never done

patrick was planning 2 4ts 1 a and 2 3lz... how is that lower than before in terms of content? that's pretty much what was planned at sochi or was he then doing 2 3f? i don't remember if it were 2 flips then he is even better than before... yup he tripled one jump but he did a better 3 axel than in sochi... so???

Oh I did not meant having even more difficult content or new jumps, for either Mao or Patrick. What I would like to see is Patrick getting back to his Sochi shape and content (the way Mao seems to have done), something I think is perfectly achievable for him.
 
Last edited:
i think he skated better his LP than sochi's lp ;) right ? so mission accomplished
Oh I did not meant having even more difficult content or new jumps, for either Mao or Patrick. What I would like to see is Patrick getting back to his Sochi shape and content, something I think is perfectly achievable for him.
 
as far as i m concerned, this season, and last, i havent seen anything close to chan's teb 2013 or sc 2015... sorry ... my opinion

It's ok to have that opinion. But those who have criticized Chan's interview see otherwise. I saw Denis Ten's 4CC Performance, Misha Ge, Jason Brown, Yuzuru's GPF and WTT, Fernandez at Worlds, Joshua Farris at 4CC and Nationals. That's Something Special.
Patrick's Performance and Japan Open is in there too...but not so far above the rest that they can be called 'nothing special, no offense'.
 
i think he skated better his LP than sochi's lp ;) right ? so mission accomplished

Ok badly phrased from my part, I meant back to the Olympic season shape and content. He hasn't added his second 4T yet, which he had in the 2013-2014 season :) But I think I heard he wants to have it maximum for Nationals?
 
patrick was only talking about the 2015 wc, the only one you mention here from there who is a top contender is fernandez who if he did great of course as we all agree, didn't bring something unexpected or new... what's wrong with the truth?
It's ok to have that opinion. But those who have criticized Chan's interview see otherwise. I saw Denis Ten's 4CC Performance, Misha Ge, Jason Brown, Yuzuru's GPF and WTT, Fernandez at Worlds, Joshua Farris at 4CC and Nationals. That's Something Special.
Patrick's Performance and Japan Open is in there too...but not so far above the rest that they can be called 'nothing special, no offense'.
 
Last edited:
i am sure he will have/attempt it for his next GP :) the 3T was so big that i am sure he meant to do it right at SC :)
Ok badly phrased from my part, I meant back to the Olympic season shape and content. He hasn't added his second 4T yet, which he had in the 2013-2014 season :) But I think I heard he wants to have it maximum for Nationals?
 
patrick was only talking about the 2015 wc, the only one you mention here fro there who is a top contender is fernandez who if he did great of course as we all agree, didn't bring something unexpected or new... what's wrong with the truth?

Which then goes back to what Patrick Chan is himself bringing to the table. If he's going to dish 'harsh truths' about his competition, he can expect the same scrutiny of himself. -And it should not be surprising.

If you are going to call your peers nothing special, then you'd better be prepared to bring it on EVERY LEVEL.

If he'd like to see Fernandez try Classical music, then maybe Chan should try a style he's never tried before?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top