Chan v. Hanyu: 2015-16

[tzazu]

Really, have you seen Patrick skate live? I've never seen Hanyu live so maybe I'm just not paying close enough attention to him. I remember his 2014 SP and I loved it!! However, I liked Patrick's Take 5 Program better and it's one of my all time favorites.

Hmmm, I don' t know how many times people ask that question, like if seing somebody live could change something. If you don't like or appreciate or whatever verb you want to use, it doesn't change because you see him live. Yes, I've seen both of them, and it doesn't change the opinion that I have of them. I see most of their performance on TV, and the feeling is the same.But if I change my mind after GPF (I'll see it live :hap93, I'll post it

 

[daniiltimin]

Chan is already past his peak. He had a great chance in Sochi and you all remember what happened. He been always inconsistent with his jumps and I don't see any changes this year. You never know what to expect from Patrick - he might gorgeously skate with all the jumps in one program but then miss half of them in the other... On top of it, Chan's body doesn't get healthier with the time - he is already 24 year old which is past the golden age for male skaters.

 

[mrrice]

Hmmm, I don' t know how many times people ask that question, like if seing somebody live could change something. If you don't like or appreciate or whatever verb you want to use, it doesn't change because you see him live. Yes, I've seen both of them, and it doesn't change the opinion that I have of them. I see most of their performance on TV, and the feeling is the same.But if I change my mind after GPF (I'll see it live :hap93, I'll post it

This is very interesting for me to read. I can't say enough how much seeing skating live made a difference for me. In Fact, you can't see winks, smirks, and subtle movements on TV like you can in person. This may sound strange but, you can't "Feel" skating on TV. You could "Feel" the excitement when Tonya Harding skated in 1991. The applause was so loud that you could feel it in your body like a loud base speaker.

Maria B. was always pretty but, when you see her live you realize that she's not just pretty, she's a flirt, and they way she played with the judges is something you can't see on TV. Another very pretty, sexy skater was Cynthia Phaneuf. Alissa Czisny is another very pretty skater who was at the event with Cynthia. Finally, Jennifer Robinson, who unfortunately didn't skate well when I saw her, is one of prettiest skaters I've ever seen. Believe me...Live makes a HUGE difference.

 

[TheGrandSophy]

This is very interesting for me to read. I can't say enough how much seeing skating live made a difference for me. In Fact, you can't see winks, smirks, and subtle movements on TV like you can in person. This may sound strange but, you can't "Feel" skating on TV. You could "Feel" the excitement when Tonya Harding skated in 1991. The applause was so loud that you could feel it in your body like a loud base speaker.

Maria B. was always pretty but, when you see her live you realize that she's not just pretty, she's a flirt, and they way she played with the judges is something you can't see on TV. Another very pretty, sexy skater was Cynthia Phaneuf. Alissa Czisny is another very pretty skater who was at the event with Cynthia. Finally, Jennifer Robinson, who unfortunately didn't skate well when I saw her, is one of prettiest skaters I've ever seen. Believe me...Live makes a HUGE difference.

At seeing whether they are pretty? That seems the main take away in your comment above...

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Hmmm, I don' t know how many times people ask that question, like if seing somebody live could change something.

I think for some skaters, they do come across differently live compared to on TV. Some of them look better (IMO, Adelina Sotnikova for example), some of them look more disappointing (Ashley Wagner is an example of that for me). But both Hanyu and Chan look good both live and on TV to me, and seeing them live didn't change my impressions about them all that much.


And while I appreciate Chans skating skills and some aspects about his skating, I presonally don't think he emotes more than most other guys. When I saw him live, he was more "middle pack" in that regard to me, but of course, YMMV.

 

[mrrice]

Chan is already past his peak. He had a great chance in Sochi and you all remember what happened. He been always inconsistent with his jumps and I don't see any changes this year. You never know what to expect from Patrick - he might gorgeously skate with all the jumps in one program but then miss half of them in the other... On top of it, Chan's body doesn't get healthier with the time - he is already 24 year old which is past the golden age for male skaters.

OK, I don't have time to tell you how many things are wrong in that statement. Maria B. was 26 when I saw her in 1999 when she won worlds and almost 30 when she won Europeans in 2002. Patrick is in great shape and due to his dance training, I'm sure he's stayed flexible and strong. He'll be fine.

 

[mrrice]

At seeing whether they are pretty? That seems the main take away in your comment above...

Maybe it makes me sound shallow but it does make a difference. Trust me, I've been around for a long time and though it shouldn't matter, it does. Look at Ashley Wagner, she doesn't make those faces for nothing. Yagudin was the same way. He was like an actor on the ice. However, Tonya Harding wasn't ugly but she wasn't a skating beauty. She did however, know what she was good at and did it extremely well when I saw her.

 

[TheGrandSophy]

Maybe it makes me sound shallow but it does make a difference. Trust me, I've been around for a long time and though it shouldn't matter, it does. Look at Ashley Wagner, she doesn't make those faces for nothing. Yagudin was the same way. He was like an actor on the ice. However, Tonya Harding wasn't ugly but she wasn't a skating beauty. She did however, know what she was good at and did it extremely well when I saw her.

I'm not saying it doesn't. I just question whether in trying to say seeing skaters live is important that would be the thing to emphasise. I can see how 'pretty' a skater is on the TV. However, speed for example can be deceptive.

 

[Violet Bliss]

What a list of wishful thinking to be busted:

Chan is already past his peak.

Did you time shift to the future? Peak can only be determined after a definite decline.

He had a great chance in Sochi and you all remember what happened.

What happened was a very disappointing Olympics where the top rivals underperformed and the gold medal was not won convincingly.

He been always inconsistent with his jumps and I don't see any changes this year.

Sine he's been winning almost all competitions for years now, the others must be even more inconsistent.

You never know what to expect from Patrick - he might gorgeously skate with all the jumps in one program but then miss half of them in the other...

Like his top rivals?

On top of it, Chan's body doesn't get healthier with the time - he is already 24 year old which is past the golden age for male skaters.

It must hurt you to know Chan is healthier than most Men, even those younger than he. No illnesses, no injuries. So what is the golden age for male skaters?

 

[Mathman]

However, speed for example can be deceptive.

I agree with this. Speed, effortless acceleration, ice coverage, the pattern of the choreography -- these are things that are hard to judge on TV.

But Mrrice is right about the whole, "smell of the greasepaint, roar of the crowd" thing, too. (Not so sure about winks and smirks, though. )

 

[mrrice]

I think for some skaters, they do come across differently live compared to on TV. Some of them look better (IMO, Adelina Sotnikova for example), some of them look more disappointing (Ashley Wagner is an example of that for me). But both Hanyu and Chan look good both live and on TV to me, and seeing them live didn't change my impressions about them all that much.


And while I appreciate Chans skating skills and some aspects about his skating, I presonally don't think he emotes more than most other guys. When I saw him live, he was more "middle pack" in that regard to me, but of course, YMMV.

See what I mean. I think this is a very interesting perspective. This is how things like inflation are born. If were seated next to each other on a judging panel, we'd probably cause a scandal. Patrick is the farthest skater from middle of the pack that I can think of. Especially when it comes to performance quality.

US Fans, don't kill me........The most middle of the pack US Champion I have ever seen live is Timothy Goebel. I saw him in 2001 and he was a good jumper but, his expression......He looked like he was studying for finals.

 

[daniiltimin]

OK, I don't have time to tell you how many things are wrong in that statement. Maria B. was 26 when I saw her in 1999 when she won worlds and almost 30 when she won Europeans in 2002. Patrick is in great shape and due to his dance training, I'm sure he's stayed flexible and strong. He'll be fine.

Butyrskaya didn't need to jump quadruple jumps, not even combinations with the second triple. Very bad example.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

See what I mean. I think this is a very interesting perspective. This is how things like inflation are born. If were seated next to each other on a judging panel, we'd probably cause a scandal. Patrick is the farthest skater from middle of the pack that I can think of. Especially when it comes to performance quality.

Haha, if I were a judge, I'd probably enjoy causing scandals and have a good laugh about it, so please be my judging panel neighbor

And please don't misunderstand - Chan is not a middle of the pack skater, and not a middle of the pack performer to me. I was just talking about emoting - which IMO, is one of several qualities that can make up a good performer. Chan definitely has good performance qualities, like his posture and carriage, which are very lovely. He's musical and hits the right beats in the music. But he doesn't give me the same feeling of involvement in his music that Hanyu does, or the same communication with me as an audience member as Fernandez or for example Brown. That's what I meant.

 

[Silvia451]

After reading some posts here (from both sides), it is indeed a matter of taste. You can't just say it's impossible not to like a skater. It is possible not to be impressed by one of these two or (why not) by both of them. We talk about the effect their performances have on us, which is different from one person to another. For me the best example is Machida. I was about to cry at almost every of his programs, but I heard lots of people saying he is not that good artistically and that his interpretation is too much and so on... We just see things differently.
"Skater A is more exciting than skater B" is not a generally accepted statement.

I personally prefer Hanyu, but I also like to watch Chan (especially with programs like his FS this season, not like the SP)

 

[Mathman]

Butyrskaya didn't need to jump quadruple jumps, not even combinations with the second triple. Very bad example.

No, no, wait. So you are saying that men's golden age is 18-22 but women's is 26-30 because they don't do quads?

 

[Mathman]

.The most middle of the pack US Champion I have ever seen live is Timothy Goebel. I saw him in 2001 and he was a good jumper but, his expression......He looked like he was studying for finals.

The much-maligned Timothy Goebel actually had a lot more going for him than just jumps. He had some pretty good (Lori Nichol) chpeography, for instance in American in Paris as well as in some exhibition numbers like American Pie. He had good "in-betweens" as they used to call transitions and good skating skills.

His presentation suffered because he had a stiff upper body, but even that improved over the years of his competitive career.

Asd for studying for the finals, he was pretty good at that, too. After he retired he went to Columbia in mathematics and now works as an investment banker.

 

[daniiltimin]

So what is the golden age for male skaters?

Well, let's look at the facts and some examples.

Urmanov won 1994 Olympics at the age of 21. It was a peak of his career and he been struggling with many injuries since that success.

Ilya Kulik won in Nagano when he was 20.

Yagudin's best season 2001-2002. For the moment of the Salt Lake Olympics Yagudin was 21.

Trough Plushenko's entire career his best season was 2000-2001. He was only 19 I think.

There are so many more examples I can give you: Timothy Goebel, Brian Joubert, Stephane Lambiel. They all had their best seasons at age of 20-22.

 

[mrrice]

Butyrskaya didn't need to jump quadruple jumps, not even combinations with the second triple. Very bad example.

Oh Honey.....You have NO IDEA what Maria Butyrskaya had to deal with. Try being dumped by your own Federation and having to compete with ZERO support in your own Country. Try knocking 2 time and defending Champion Michelle Kwan off her throne like Maria did. She couldn't have been less popular Especially in the US. I got tons of hate just for being her fan since I was from the US. I always loved Michelle but I knew Maria didn't have much time left to achieve her dreams.

Believe me. Pressure doesn't just come from jumping. It comes from sponsors and Federations. The older you get the more pressure you feel. At least in my case

Listen to the US Version of her 1st Place SP. They mention how she was written off by her own federation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHN52qm4FY8

 

[daniiltimin]

No, no, wait. So you are saying that men's golden age is 18-22 but women's is 26-30 because they don't do quads?

Talking about the guys, Harder elements require more strength and health. It is the same for ladies these days. The best example is Mao Asada.

 

[mrrice]

The much-maligned Timothy Goebel actually had a lot more going for him than just jumps. He had some pretty good (Lori Nichol) chpeography, for instance in American in Paris as well as in some exhibition numbers like American Pie. He had good "in-betweens" as they used to call transitions and good skating skills.

His presentation suffered because he had a stiff upper body, but even that improved over the years of his competitive career.

Asd for studying for the finals, he was pretty good at that, too. After he retired he went to Columbia in mathematics and now works as an investment banker.

That's good news about Timmy. Thanks for sharing that story.