Changing Your Programs on the Fly in COP and 6.0...Successfully

[dorispulaski]

It's a rare skill. Nobunari Oda is most famous for not being able to do it successfully. Plush lost a competition to Emanuel Sandhu (GPF AFAIR) for not doing it successfully. Christopher Bowman's on air fight with Frank Carroll after Chris rechoreographed his LP on the fly at Worlds in Halifax is famous...but Chris medalled as a result.

The most successful rechoreographer I know of is without doubt Jeff Buttle, who was a very bright guy, who was majoring in chemical engineering--I don't know whether he ever graduated though. He could rechoreograph and make the result look intentional

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Buttle

Interestingly enough, Rachael Flatt's silver medal at US Nationals was another case of rechoreographing on the fly (no wonder the skate looked over thought through and uninspired..she has yet to learn how to do this and look brilliant )

However, it's a positive skill and is perhaps partially responsible for the judges being kind to her at Nationals:

http://www.usfigureskating.org/leaderboard/results/2011/68096/results.html

Click the plus next to Rachael's name to see her Planned vs. Executed Skills

Planned:
Double Axel Triple Toe
Triple Lutz Triple Loop
Change Foot Sit Spin
Triple Flip
Flying Camel Spin
Choreo Spirals
Triple Lutz
Double Axel
Triple Flip Double Toe Double Loop
Straight Line Step Sequence
Triple Salchow
Change Foot Combination Spin

Executed
Having Underrotated the 3T on the 2A3t combination
And popped the 3Lz into a 2Lz without a combination Rachael's list then looks nothing like her planned list, as she struggled to maximize points and recoup the loss of the 3Lz and 3Lp she had planned, and add in an extra combination:

Change Foot Camel Spin Level 4 (did she use this to think over what to do next?)
Why did she pick this rather than the scheduled Sit Spin?

Triple Flip (same)

Flying Combination Spin Level 4

Choreo Spirals

Triple Lutz Double Loop (getting the combo in here; I wonder if this is past the bonus, but not risking the triple loop)

Triple Flip Double Toe Double Loop instead of the Double Axel

Triple Loop instead of the 3F2T2Lp planned here

Straight Line Sequence 3
Triple Salchow
Change Foot Combination Spin 3

I have no idea why she changed the spins too.

Is it a coincidence that she also wants to be a chemical engineer?

What are your opinions on this very risky practice?

Frank fired Chris, partially over it.

OTOH it worked for Rachael today.

Should people do it?

 

[Mathman]

Plan your skate, skate your plan.

Alissa Czisny changed some things around, too. In fact, I think one of the planned elements must be listed wrong. She was scheduled to do two flips and one Lutz, but in the execution she did it the other way around. This (what she actually executed) has to be right, because her Lutz is her best jump and she has to be careful of the edge on her flip.

Alissa did the opposite of missing a combination, then tacking something on later. She planned a solo triple toe loop as her third element, then a 3t+2T+2T in the second half to pick up the bonus (0.28 points). But she did the combo first instead. I bet what happened is that her first triple toe was so good she couldn't help herself.

Maybe she planned it that way. If the first one felt right she would do the combo then, and otherwise try to do it at the end.

 

[Clarice]

I'm not well versed enough in COP to discuss this question in any depth, but I do know that when my daughter was competing, she and her coach often had a backup plan - as in, we want to do this, but if something goes wrong, then do this. It may be that some changes that seem to be on the fly were actually strategized in advance.

 

[Olympia]

Wasn't Oksana Baiul famous for re-choreographing on the fly? She usually did pretty well with it. I imagine it's a lot harder now, as Oda has shown several times. Interesting about Buttle. I love the idea that a math-engineering person would take it on as a mechanical challenge.

Clarke, your child's experience sounds like something a lot of top-tier coaches would also work through with their students, considering how high the stakes are for those skaters. Especially through a season where the skaters have already tried the program and found their own weak points, the coach would want to prepare a strategy that could get them out of a tight spot.

 

[dorispulaski]

A lot of people have Plan B (do the combo on the 2nd Lutz or Flip).

What I'm talking about is major reconstruction.

Alissa did do some successful restructuring, and as the Flip was swapped for a lutz. It's got to be a listing error I would think. Perhaps, given the edge call she got in the short, she and her coach planned this layout after the SP to avoid the risk of 2 edge calls in the LP?.

 

[seniorita]

It's a rare skill. Nobunari Oda is most famous for not being able to do it successfully. Plush lost a competition to Emanuel Sandhu (GPF AFAIR) for not doing it successfully.

i had to rewatch it but Plushenko didnt change the program on the fly because he did something wrong and had to adjust. What he did was EVEN worse, he just went and did 3 combos just because..he could? He did a 4Toeloop-3 Toeloop, 4 Toeloop - 2 Loop, 3 Axel-2 Toeloop, back to back to back when in the first Cop season two were allowed. I dont know what he was thinking, commentators didnt pick this either until the marks.
But I think he was notorious up until Nice 2000 for another thing, how he changed his jumps layout on the fly in case he missed the quad. He was called a headcase of Oda proportions up unitl then

What did ALissa do, I didnt get it.

 

[ivy]

It's an interesting question to me too - and it's hard to know whether Rachel's overhaul was planned, but paperwork not updated, or improvised - or a combo of the 2. I'd guess the later. It seems I heard that Rachel wasn't planning to do 3x3 in the LP, but it is listed as a planned element. Maybe that list reflects the program as it was originally choreographed at the beginning of the season, and no one in Rachel's camp updated the list as the program evolved through the season. Sorry to say I haven't payed that close of attention to her program until Nat's.

Regardless, it would seem most skaters really need to be fully in the moment to execute and sell their programs. If you're busy rearranging, you're not in the moment. It would seem to take a special kind of mind and a praticed skater to be both in the moment and in the future. Maybe Buttle meditates - that would seem to help to me.

 

[Serious Business]

I'm not so sure Rachael changed her jump plan on the fly. The planned elements list skaters submit are more like a wish list most of the time (Caroline Zhang's FS planned element list included a 3flilp/3toe in the second half!). By all comments Rachael has made prior to the FS and practice reports about her, it doesn't seem like she had any plans for a 3lutz/3loop combo. Indeed, the 3lutz combo she went for in the second half was the 3lutz/2toe, not a 2loop. And if she doesn't have a 3lutz/3loop combo planned, the jump layout she used with a 3loop instead of a 2axel in the second half makes sense. Otherwise she would not be doing a 3loop in her program at all since her planned repeated jumps are the 3lutz and the 3flip.

And since she doubled the planned 3lutz, if she was really ad libbing and was up for it she could've gone for a 3lutz in place of the 3sal or 3loop instead, that would've scored her a lot more points. Instead she wound up only repeating her 3flip thus diminishing her scoring potential.

Regardless Rachael and her team had a great plan for a 7 triple program, with some high scoring jumping passes in the second half. Even when she messed some of that plan up she still rotated more, landed harder jumps and put down more technical content than Mirai which is one of the reasons she won over Mirai.

 

[Tinymavy15]

Rachael added another triple instead of the planned double axel in the second half to make up for missing her first lutz. She came to win. That or else she and her coach changed the program shortly before the event and didn't update the planned element sheet.

 

[Layfan]

Thanks Doris - very interesting to see what Rachael did. I'm sure it helped her win silver. Impressive. I think it's true that she probably wasn't going to do the 3 lutz 3 loop. I don't think it had been going so well for her. But the double axel swap seems like it was on the fly. Good for her for landing the triple.

Alissa also changed her SP both times during the GP series when things didn't go as planned. One of the things that showed her new found competitive meddle. But I'm sure it was part of a plan b thing and not completely improvised on the spot.

Tom Z, speaking about Agnes, said they went through drills on different scenarios to help her be more focused during the FS. I wasn't sure what he meant. I wonder if part of it was coming up with alternative jump plans.

 

[SkateSkates]

The score sheets are often filled out and due long before the actual competition takes place. I don't think Rachael really changed anything on the fly - I think she just didn't update her planned program content form.

 

[Layfan]

I don't really get why Rachael changed her game plan from last year anyway. Why did she decide to open with a 2a3t instead of the 3f-3t she was doing last year. Is it because she was trying to rework her flip?

 

[Blades of Passion]

Rachael didn't change her program on the fly. She simply had two slightly different planned layouts for the second half of her program, depending on if she did the 3Lutz-3Loop at the beginning (which hasn't happened all season and was never going to happen).

 

[emma]

Cool thread Dorisp..! I don't know the answer to the basic question, but my impression is it is way more dangerous to re-choreo now than with 6.0. I agree with with MM, plan your skate and skate your plan. But obviously, mistakes happen and perhaps many of the skaters have a plan B for that. I wish we could have one those debrief the comp shows where this kind of question could be put to the experts and skaters. It would be cool to know when, say, Rachel's planned element sheet was submitted, and more to the point, when it was written. Then we would have a much better sense of how far she diverged from the plan. Kudos to her for making up points where she could. I agree, too, with Doris that some skaters seem better at this (like Buttle and not like Oda, poor thing).

Anyway, now I have yet another thing to ponder - study the protocols for the marks and to compare with planned elements. fun. quick question, are these planned element sheets available to us casual fans before the comp starts?

 

[Serious Business]

Sometimes the planned element sheets are available online before a competition. Half the time I found them to be wildly different than what skaters actually do. Not just jumps but spins and footworks are different and differently ordered. And a lot of the times skaters will list difficult elements that they really have no hope of ever doing. I've found it better to just watch the skate as it happens.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

The planning of a program is just that a plan. If you are a skater, you know what you have done and what you are doing. You know the error(s) you made and what is best to correct them before your 4 minutes of fame is up.

It's the same way with political speeches, the plan is made but delivery is often totally diffferent. JFK would never follow his prepared speech and it would drive the reporters crazy.

Nothing wrong with skaters changing their program while skating, however, I believe it is an ART to do so properly. Not sure if it is wise for all skaters.

 

[Jaana]

I think that e.g. in sp it would be a good idea to change the programme if the combination fails in some way. I have noticed that some skaters after a not so good landing of the first jump, may just put a single jump as the second jump. Some others don´t jump the second jump, but instead they are doing some other combination.

 

[seniorita]

Does the single jump count in combos?? I thought the second jump has to be two revolutions at least to be a combo. Or i have confused everything again?

 

[Violet Bliss]

I don't think there are many program change possibilities in SP. Skaters should have Plan B and I'm sure they do. The tricky part is the jump entries. Patrick Chan's ability to do footwork into his 4T gives him the option of tacking his 3T onto either his 4T or 3F depending on the quality of the 4T. Those who need to stalk their most difficult jump don't have such luxury and have to take more of a risk.

A LP is so much more demanding that having the mental accuity to plan on the fly is rare and rarely rewarding for those who try because it takes away the focus where it belongs. I'm sure skaters have alternative plans practiced for the probable mistakes and needs but not all situations are foreseeable.

eta: Now that Chan is doing two quads in his LP, I wouldn't be surprised if he does a 4T/3T first because that would be preferable. A skater should do the combo first if s/he could so the 2nd attempt would not be nullified or penalized if the quality is low and the second jump is not done. In Chan's case, having both quads at the beginning of the program, such modification as necessory should not affect the performance of the entire program. Trying to rectify an early mistake near the end of the program, OTOH, could wreak havoc.

 

[gkelly]

Does the single jump count in combos?? I thought the second jump has to be two revolutions at least to be a combo. Or i have confused everything again?

In the short program, singling one of the jumps in the combination will require that the GOE for the combo is -3, but the base mark for the combo will be the total of the two jumps (the single plus the triple or whatever it is).

If the skater does no combo in the short program, then the jump that the tech panel identifies as the intended combo will be called "+COMBO," the base mark for the element will be the value of the one jump that was performed, and the GOE will be -3.

If there's a fall or step out between the first jump and the second jump, again the value is first jump +COMBO.

Therefore, after a bad landing with no extra step, including a single jump as the second jump will earn the skater a few extra tenths of a point worth of base mark.

In a long program, if one of the jumps is a single, there's no requirement for the GOE to be negative. If it's a good single jump, the GOE can be positive, or certainly 0. Or slightly negative. Judges just judge what they see.

And if it's a repeated jump subject to the Zayak rule, then adding a single jump on the landing means that the element qualifies as a jump combination and gets full value for the first jump + single jump, plus or minus whatever GOE the judges think the combo deserves.

On a repeated triple or quad, doing no second jump means that the second time that jump is performed solo it will be called as jump +SEQ and will only earn 0.8 times its base value, plus or minus whatever GOE it deserves.

If the planned combo was the second time the jump is performed, it's almost always advantageous to add at least a single toe loop afterward. The only time it wouldn't be worth it would be if the landing of the first jump was so bad that adding the second jump would make it more likely that the skater will fall or otherwise end up with additional errors and lower GOE, plus maybe a fall deduction.

If the planned combo was the first time the jump was performed and it didn't happen because of a fall or bad landing, then the skater is also almost always better off adding at least a single toe loop after the second execution of that jump, so it doesn't get called as a sequence. The only time it might not be worth it would be if the element is planned to have a special landing (e.g., directly into edgework on the landing foot, or spread eagle, perhaps leading right into a spin immediately out of that special jump exit). If the skater consistently earns +2 or better for the element with the special landing and also consistently earns good transitions scores and feels confident of doing so this time, then it might be worth taking the 0.8 multiplier penalty rather than leaving out the special landing/transition.