Changing Your Programs on the Fly in COP and 6.0...Successfully
- Thread starter dorispulaski
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Actually, the requirement is -3 from what it would have otherwise been (and it must be negative). So if the first jump is done wonderfully and would get +1, the GOE is then -2. You mostly only see this at regionals when girls can't do the required double axel/triple (same GOE requirements) and will do planned singles/doubles with arm variations or difficult entry/exits in an attempt to make up for a little of the GOE loss.
http://www.usfigureskating.org/Content/ISU Comm 1611.pdf
See p. 12:
For "SP: One or more rev. less than required" and "SP: Combo consisting of one jump only" the requirement is not a -3 reduction from what it would be otherwise, but specifically "GOE -3" -- i.e., the GOE is required to be -3.
However, it's not that uncommon for judges to forget and mistakenly give a higher negative GOE, especially at a competition where they're judging several different levels of short programs with different requirements in the same day.
If you look at a protocol for a regionals where most of the senior ladies did 1A and/or doubles instead of required triples, you'll see mostly rows of -3s, with an occasional -2, -1, 0, or +1 from a judge who made a mistake.
Even though a single axel, solo double, or double-double (or triple-single) combination requires -3 GOE in a senior SP, it's still often to the skater's advantage to do that on purpose and do it well if they can't rotate a double axel or triple. (Same goes for 1A in a junior SP or double-single combo in a novice SP.)
-3 GOE for 2A<< is worth the same as -3 GOE for 1A; -3 for, say, 3T<< is worth less than -3 for 2Lz. The enhancements and good quality on the easier jumps can help the skater's PCS. And falling on the downgraded harder jump would require a deduction as well as probably hurting the PCS.
See p. 12:
For "SP: One or more rev. less than required" and "SP: Combo consisting of one jump only" the requirement is not a -3 reduction from what it would be otherwise, but specifically "GOE -3" -- i.e., the GOE is required to be -3.
However, it's not that uncommon for judges to forget and mistakenly give a higher negative GOE, especially at a competition where they're judging several different levels of short programs with different requirements in the same day.
If you look at a protocol for a regionals where most of the senior ladies did 1A and/or doubles instead of required triples, you'll see mostly rows of -3s, with an occasional -2, -1, 0, or +1 from a judge who made a mistake.
Even though a single axel, solo double, or double-double (or triple-single) combination requires -3 GOE in a senior SP, it's still often to the skater's advantage to do that on purpose and do it well if they can't rotate a double axel or triple. (Same goes for 1A in a junior SP or double-single combo in a novice SP.)
-3 GOE for 2A<< is worth the same as -3 GOE for 1A; -3 for, say, 3T<< is worth less than -3 for 2Lz. The enhancements and good quality on the easier jumps can help the skater's PCS. And falling on the downgraded harder jump would require a deduction as well as probably hurting the PCS.
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- Feb 5, 2004
My genuine guess is that the planned content sheet was filed weeks (months?) before the competition and maybe no longer reflected the programme she planned when she took the ice for the LP.
I also think a lot of these are aspirational - 3Lz/3Lp from Rachel - has she eve landed that in competition? I haven't really been following the GP this season so I don't know. My guess is there was a plan B on the double axel becoming the 3Lp if not done int he opening combination.
Ant
Good topic of conversation. 
Of course the first person to come to mind was Oksana Baiul, whom was a natural when it came to this, it was all organic, not planned the way things are nowadays.
But I'm glad you pointed it out Dorispulaski, in regards to Rachael, another natural imho, she's always reminded me of Oksana from the first time I saw her skate in 2007, so I'm not surprised she shares this trait with her as well.^)
This has made me think most recently of Mary Beth & Rockne's FS, wherein in the K&C Rockne explained to Mr. Nicks that after he & Mary Beth fell on a crossover he went straight into a lift because he automatically was thinking of making up points lost on the crossover, and Mary Beth corroborated his story by saying she didn't know what to do, she just automatically followed Rockne's lead. Lol, then Mr. Nicks asked them if that had ever happened before in practice, and they said "no", with Rockne saying "never on a fall", lol, so good thinking on the fly on Rockne's part. Btw, I think it's endearing how Mary Beth follows Rockne's lead in everything (I too noticed how after the fall he stopped her & indicated the lift & she immediately got the point). It reminded me of how Katia always followed Sergei's lead.
Another outstanding "thinking on the fly" was Elvis Stojko during his 1994 Olympic FS ~ after he missed his opening quad, he made up for it later with a gorgeous 3axel, which received rave reviews from Scott Hamilton, whom said one had to be great to do that and Elvis was great!
Also, I would like to add Ryan Bradley during his 2011 Nationals FS, wherein he came back from a disastrous start (just like Sasha Cohen at the 2006 Olympics) by adding a beautiful & daring 3A/3T later on in the program! Imho that sealed the deal for him with the judges (& audience) by ending strong. Same goes for Rachael Flatt's FS. Unfortunately, the opposite is true for Mirai Nagasu, whom ending on a weak note.
It's far better to start out so-so & end on a strong note rather than a weak one because that's what the judges will remember the most.
Of course the first person to come to mind was Oksana Baiul, whom was a natural when it came to this, it was all organic, not planned the way things are nowadays.
But I'm glad you pointed it out Dorispulaski, in regards to Rachael, another natural imho, she's always reminded me of Oksana from the first time I saw her skate in 2007, so I'm not surprised she shares this trait with her as well.
^)This has made me think most recently of Mary Beth & Rockne's FS, wherein in the K&C Rockne explained to Mr. Nicks that after he & Mary Beth fell on a crossover he went straight into a lift because he automatically was thinking of making up points lost on the crossover, and Mary Beth corroborated his story by saying she didn't know what to do, she just automatically followed Rockne's lead. Lol, then Mr. Nicks asked them if that had ever happened before in practice, and they said "no", with Rockne saying "never on a fall", lol, so good thinking on the fly on Rockne's part. Btw, I think it's endearing how Mary Beth follows Rockne's lead in everything (I too noticed how after the fall he stopped her & indicated the lift & she immediately got the point).
It reminded me of how Katia always followed Sergei's lead. Another outstanding "thinking on the fly" was Elvis Stojko during his 1994 Olympic FS ~ after he missed his opening quad, he made up for it later with a gorgeous 3axel, which received rave reviews from Scott Hamilton, whom said one had to be great to do that and Elvis was great!
Also, I would like to add Ryan Bradley during his 2011 Nationals FS, wherein he came back from a disastrous start (just like Sasha Cohen at the 2006 Olympics) by adding a beautiful & daring 3A/3T later on in the program! Imho that sealed the deal for him with the judges (& audience) by ending strong. Same goes for Rachael Flatt's FS. Unfortunately, the opposite is true for Mirai Nagasu, whom ending on a weak note.
It's far better to start out so-so & end on a strong note rather than a weak one because that's what the judges will remember the most.p.s. Rockne's remind me of this guy ~ http://www.alincocostumes.com/catalog/images/475-Lumberjack.jpg
I'm sooooooooo very happy that I finally have another all-time favorite pair team to root for ~ M&B ~ and they're from the USA (double joy)!!!!
I'm sooooooooo very happy that I finally have another all-time favorite pair team to root for ~ M&B ~ and they're from the USA (double joy)!!!!
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- Nov 19, 2010
Is Ryan Bradley the first one to add comedic gestures on the fly in an important competition? Is it a success?
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- Jul 11, 2003
I believe he choreographed his own program so he knew what he was doing.
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- Nov 19, 2010
He said he added comedy after opening his LP with two poorly executed quads, hoping that they would be overlooked. Just wonder if such effect was actually achieved and if it would work outside the US.
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- Jan 7, 2011
He didn't aim the comedy at the judges. As per his own post comp comments, Ryan thought he had lost completely, and all that's left is to entertain the audience. He wanted to make the audience forget about his botched quads, not the judges.
As for whether it had an effect on his scores, it should be reflected in some of his PCS (if indeed judges ever score that according to reality). But perhaps more importantly, focusing on entertaining the audience took some pressure off and allowed him to perform with ease and flair. This probably made it easier for him to land some of those jumps, which of course affects the scores. And I think audience reaction and a skater's confidence at the last part of the skate has a huge effect on PCS. Ryan may have thought he lost, but he didn't show it. A defeatist attitude on ice will hurt a skater every way. So yeah, by adding more comedy, Ryan helped himself. I don't see why it wouldn't work internationally either. It's not as if non-American audiences don't want to be entertained, or that Ryan can't boost his own confidence on foreign ice.
So impressive.
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- Jan 15, 2010
^was that at the Olympics in '92?
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- Sep 14, 2008
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Todd Eldredge would always throw a Triple Axel at the VERY end of his program if he didn't hit both of them. It wouldn't always work (1997 Worlds, 1998 Olympics) but it was glorious when it did (1995 Worlds, 1998 Nationals). Skaters should still be able to do such things; that kind of unpredictability is good for the sport. CoP needs to be more flexible. Discount the lowest scoring jump pass if too many are attempted (rather than saying a very late and gutsy extra Triple Axel attempt is instead worth nothing) or downgrade jumps to doubles rather than entirely discounting them if the skater goes over the Zayak limit, etc.
I agree with this! Definitely the throwing in a jump or combo and then then the proposed remedies for violating the rules.
Yes. No one does triple axel like that anymore.
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2010
^ I totally agree! Or a 3T-3T.
Not just some random 3T-3T, but a 3T-3T preceded by an Ina Bauer and in the second half of the program.
When I was doing the planned program sheets for TV/media (before COP), I was doing it on site. Asking the skater was not always productive as often times they could not verbalize their routine. I often had to go to the coach and then I also had to watch all the practices and even then, the actual planned program wasn't what was skated at the competition. (This drove the commentators crazy.) Now with COP skaters have way too much to think about - too many rules to totally change their programs on the fly successfully.
