"Clarifications" to the 2007 ISU rules changes

[emma]

If your Spiral isn't Level 4, you only get half as many points for positive GOE.

IMO, it should be a +1 bonus for ALL levels. Even still, doesn't it feel wrong that the best Spirals we've ever seen (from Arakawa and Cohen) are now only Level 3?

I am really worried about what some of the spirals are going to look like! And yes, it does seem hard to believe that Arakawa's and Cohen's sprial sequences are now 'only' level 3. But, I'm a bit slow in learning and accepting parts of the new system, so I still can't believe that the Kwan smiral is basically a thing of the past (and not just because Michelle isn't skating - a long steady, fast, coe spiral doesn't even seem to be a worthy goal anymore )

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I still look for ballet-like arabesques and don't care about the height of the free leg. I think most skaters have a free leg above the head anyway, and that's enough.

I also look for solid edges on a change edge spiral with no bobbles.

Catch foot spirals are ugly and look like clowns in a Felini movie.

Open Fans can be pretty.

Since Charlotte's are tricks now, one doesn't see them in the spiral sequences.

IMO, 3 spirals are more than enough: One forward with change edge; One backwards with change edge; one Open Fan.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

In the FISA case, it's often written that a great part of the intentions of rule changes is to keep the authority of the organization.
It's by making the participants obey that they keep the power, regardless of whether the change is appropriate or not.

I hope that 's not the case in figure skating.

I don't think there is any sinister intent. The CoP is still relatively new. It is only natural that the ISU is still on the process of refining it.

In the case of the new rules about what kind of hop you can or can't put between the two jumps of a sequence, I think this just reflects a desire to make it absolutely clear what should be scored as a combination, a sequence, or two separate jumps. The goal is, I would suppose, to make the rules as airtight as possible so as to make sure that different coaches (and for that matter, different technical specialists calling the elements) are all on the same page.

 

[Mathman]

I am really worried about what some of the spirals are going to look like! And yes, it does seem hard to believe that Arakawa's and Cohen's sprial sequences are now 'only' level 3.

But, I'm a bit slow in learning and accepting parts of the new system, so I still can't believe that the Kwan smiral is basically a thing of the past (and not just because Michelle isn't skating - a long steady, fast, coe spiral doesn't even seem to be a worthy goal anymore )

As far as I can see, the whole point of the New Judging System is to reward difficulty. A quad is more difficult than a triple. Therefore, do a quad, you win, do a triple, you lose.

A spin in one position is easy. 1.2 poiints. A spin with four changes of postition is hard. 3.5 points. Q.E.D.

Whether this new direction will lead figure skating to the promised land, or whether we are charging straight off a cliff -- I guess that remains to be seen.

 

[sorcerer]

I don't think there is any sinister intent....

I'm glad to hear that through MM's words.
I hope the skaters are officially explained and convinced of the aim of the changes.

 

[GoldMedalist]

IMO, 3 spirals are more than enough: One forward with change edge; One backwards with change of edge; one Open Fan.

The Spiral Sequence you just described is considered 5 Spirals with the new rules.

The Open Fan position is basically dead. The only way to incorporate it into your Sequence (remember that Level 4 is the goal) is to start by doing a backwards catch-foot with the leg in total split position and then releasing the hand and going into the fan position (which is what Sasha Cohen did for her Spiral in 2006 and it was beautiful). However, the problem is that you are now limited with the kind of forward Spiral you can follow it with. It has to be in either the Beillmann position or a "twisted" upper body position (or a forward Charlotte). A change-of-edge Spiral is not possible, as that results in a 4th position after you change edge, which means the change-of-edge does not count in determining the Level of the sequence.

While this is quite annoying, the changes overall ARE better. Spiral sequences in general are going to have less unnecessary positions and not be wastes of time.

Something I also didn't realize until just now is that the Charlotte Spiral is actually a HUGE money position. If you can get your free leg into a total split position for 3 seconds while doing the move, it counts for that feature (since the "total split position" no longer has to be only sideways or forward to count for a level) AND it counts as a difficult variation (pulling the upper body down towards the skating leg). Which means a "traditional" change-of-edge Spiral that is followed by a total-split Charlotte Spiral is Level 4. That's perfect. And Michelle Kwan could do it well.

However, that's also just about the only Spiral Sequence I can think of with the new rules that would be level 4 AND look really good. We are running into a variety problem. Some other rules that should be put in place are that a change-of-edge shouldn't have to be held for 3 seconds afterwards if the skater is in total-split position AND changes from a backwards to a forward edge, or vice versa (the "Sasha" Spiral). A change of position after a change-of-edge also should not count as an entirely new position towards the skater's limit of 3 (which means that the "Arakawa" Spiral would still be valid); and if the final move a skater does is a change-of-edge Spiral that would result in a "4th" position after the change of edge, that change of edge should still count as a feature towards the level. THEN everything would be perfect.

 

[Hsuhs]

http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/Answers 062707.pdf
2 quotes (PP 2 and 3):

Q: In the layback spin, if a skater's stays in a traditional layback position for eight revolutions and moves arms and/or leg to increase speed, will they get the two features – holding position for eight revolutions and increase of speed) (Body position/core does NOT change)?

A: Increase of speed is not its own feature anymore but is now considered a difficult variation (camel, sit and layback). We will need to research this question further with the ISU before we can provide an answer.

Q: If a skater increases the speed and holds the position with increased speed for eight revolutions, will they receive two features?
A: Yes

I don't quite get it. Why will the 2nd skater receive two features? Can someone explain this?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Hi Goldmedalist. Your post on Spirals is first rate. I had no idea that they have finally come under such scrutiny, having seen the same old patterns by every skater. I particularly like the following statement you made and can only say Praise to Be!:

Spiral sequences in general are going to have less unnecessary positions and not be wastes of time.

I'm not sure what the 'Arakawa Spiral' is. I'm thinking it is the "Y" spiral? The "Y" spiral from what I understand is pulling the free leg up to the side. In Arakawa's case she did that but then let go of the hand which would make it difficult to stay on edge. I liked that added touch. If it is still permitted, it should get level 4, imo.

Joe

 

[emma]

Something I also didn't realize until just now is that the Charlotte Spiral is actually a HUGE money position. If you can get your free leg into a total split position for 3 seconds while doing the move, it counts for that feature (since the "total split position" no longer has to be only sideways or forward to count for a level) AND it counts as a difficult variation (pulling the upper body down towards the skating leg). Which means a "traditional" change-of-edge Spiral that is followed by a total-split Charlotte Spiral is Level 4. That's perfect. And Michelle Kwan could do it well.

However, that's also just about the only Spiral Sequence I can think of with the new rules that would be level 4 AND look really good. We are running into a variety problem. Some other rules that should be put in place are that a change-of-edge shouldn't have to be held for 3 seconds afterwards if the skater is in total-split position AND changes from a backwards to a forward edge, or vice versa (the "Sasha" Spiral). A change of position after a change-of-edge also should not count as an entirely new position towards the skater's limit of 3 (which means that the "Arakawa" Spiral would still be valid); and if the final move a skater does is a change-of-edge Spiral that would result in a "4th" position after the change of edge, that change of edge should still count as a feature towards the level. THEN everything would be perfect.

Wow - I must have totally misunderstood what I read - I thought we heard the death knoll of a beautiful Michelle Kwan spiral (coe), but your explanation says just the opposite, and I hope that is true! I need to think about the last paragraph - I'm still a little confused. But thanks so much for the clarifications!

 

[GoldMedalist]

Well, basically, Arakawa's Spiral has 4 positions with the new rules.

Position #1 - Forward inside Spiral, with leg in total-split Y position.
Position #2 - Forward outside Spiral, with leg in total-split Y position.
Position #3 - Forward outside Spiral, with leg in sideways position (letting go of the hand counts for the "unassisted change of position" feature)
Position #4 - Backward inside Beillmann Spiral

With the new rules, Arakawa has to drop the hand as soon as she changes edge or else she's already used up 3 positions and can not do the required backwards Spiral. IMO, that would sorta lessen the effect of the Spiral since the beauty of it is how she holds the Y-position after the change-of-edge and THEN drops the hand. Which is why I suggest that when a skater does an "unassisted change of position" that doesn't come directly after the change-of-edge, that time they spent right after the change-of-edge shouldn't count as a whole position by itself.

What's also nice, however, is that the backward inside Beillmann position (or any other difficult variation) is no longer required in this Spiral for it to be level 4. She can do absolutely any kind of backward Spiral that she desires...I imagine she would choose the backwards "Nancy Kerrigan" Spiral (traditional leg position, with a light arm hold), as that's something she gets good extension on and seems to like doing....see here: http://youtube.com/watch?v=DzwTwK3oNFQ, at the 3:30 mark.

 

[GoldMedalist]

http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/Answers 062707.pdf
2 quotes (PP 2 and 3):

Q: If a skater increases the speed and holds the position with increased speed for eight revolutions, will they receive two features?
A: Yes

I don't quite get it. Why will the 2nd skater receive two features? Can someone explain this?

Because they are both different features that are being executed. Holding any position in a non-combination spin for at least 8 revolutions is now a feature for a level by itself and a "clear increasing of speed" in any Sit, Camel, or Layback position, after the whole position has been established, is now considered a difficult variation.

I love this change because now Yukari Nakano's BRILLIANT Camel Spins will be justly rewarded with a Level 4, instead of the Level 3 she normally gets. Lots of other spins in general will benefit from skaters who can HOLD a position for a good amount of time...we may be seeing more scratch spins!

 

[emma]

thanks GoldMedalist - I see what you are saying now!

 

[gkelly]

Well, basically, Arakawa's Spiral has 4 positions with the new rules.

Position #1 - Forward inside Spiral, with leg in total-split Y position.
Position #2 - Forward outside Spiral, with leg in total-split Y position.
Position #3 - Forward outside Spiral, with leg in sideways position (letting go of the hand counts for the "unassisted change of position" feature)
Position #4 - Backward inside Beillmann Spiral

With the new rules, Arakawa has to drop the hand as soon as she changes edge or else she's already used up 3 positions and can not do the required backwards Spiral.

What you call positions #2 and #3 would be considered one position (forward outside spiral with the free leg side), so your position #4 would count as the third position.

From the USFSA May coaches' conference call:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/Answers to Questions for Conference Call on ISU 1445.pdf

• Spiral positions are classified by three things: 1) skating leg (left or right), 2) edge (outside or inside) and 3) position of the free leg (backward, forward or sideways).

However, as I understand it, letting go of the free leg would not count as an additional feature unless there were also a change in the body core for it to qualify as a difficult position. So only the change of edge and the total split features would be fulfilled by the two forward spiral positions. To earn level 4 the third spiral (backward on the other foot to qualify for the first feature, using both feet, both edges, forward and backward) would also need to include a difficult position.

 

[emma]

Oh dear, now I'm confused again, LOL!

Position #1 - Forward inside Spiral, with leg in total-split Y position.
Position #2 - Forward outside Spiral, with leg in total-split Y position.
Position #3 - Forward outside Spiral, with leg in sideways position (letting go of the hand counts for the "unassisted change of position" feature)
Position #4 - Backward inside Beillmann Spiral

So if #2 and #3 were grouped together as one, would this sprial sequence count as level 4 gkelly?

Also, would the description of Kwan's coe spiral into a charlotte also count as level 4?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

thanks Goldmedalist. I'm devouring all that info on spirals and glad to see that 'flexibility' is being ignored. (At the top 10 Senior level, who would not have flexibility?)

Now I'll read more carefully about your understanding of 'no.of rotations' for spins.

BTW, Keep posting I enjoy the education.

Joe

 

[gkelly]

I love this change because now Yukari Nakano's BRILLIANT Camel Spins will be justly rewarded with a Level 4, instead of the Level 3 she normally gets.

I agree with that. She has the best flying camels I've ever seen. (Flying camel seems to have been the weak point of the best Swiss spinners.) If only her hip position were more beautiful I'd give her +3 GOE for her best efforts.

Lots of other spins in general will benefit from skaters who can HOLD a position for a good amount of time...we may be seeing more scratch spins!

It won't count as a feature in a scratch spin, though. The 8-revolutions feature seems to be limited to camel, sit, and layback positions. From ISU Communication 1445:

At least 8 revolutions without any changes in position/variation and edge (camel, sit, layback)

Just as increasing speed counts as a feature only for those positions and not for scratch spins.

But a good fast and/or sustained scratch spin with many revolutions can earn high GOE, or increase the GOE if performed at the end of a combo spin or other upright variation.

 

[gkelly]

So if #2 and #3 were grouped together as one, would this sprial sequence count as level 4 gkelly?

Position #1 - Forward inside Spiral, with leg in total-split Y position.
Position #2 - Forward outside Spiral, with leg in total-split Y position.
Position #3 - Forward outside Spiral, with leg in sideways position (letting go of the hand counts for the "unassisted change of position" feature)
Position #4 - Backward inside Beillmann Spiral

Yes, I think so.

Also, would the description of Kwan's coe spiral into a charlotte also count as level 4?

Right forward inside to outside change of edge and LEFT back outside (or inside) Charlotte with a full split should count as level 4. I don't think Kwan could do a full split Charlotte, or an impressive forward change of edge, on her left foot, though.

 

[GoldMedalist]

What you call positions #2 and #3 would be considered one position (forward outside spiral with the free leg side), so your position #4 would count as the third position.

However, as I understand it, letting go of the free leg would not count as an additional feature unless there were also a change in the body core for it to qualify as a difficult position.

Going through the rules again, I think we are both wrong:

Page 5 of the New Rules

Difficult Spiral Variations are variations that affect the core body position and balance

When the hand is let go, the free-leg does drops and there is a SIGNIFICANT change to the balance that is required to do the Spiral. So, I think it would indeed qualify as a difficult variation and not a change of position.

Which means...HURRAY! Both Cohen and Arakawa's wonderful Spirals that we saw are still Level 4 (and Arakawa wouldn't need the Beillmann in her back Spiral)!

 

[GoldMedalist]

I don't think Kwan could do a full split Charlotte, or an impressive forward change of edge, on her left foot, though.

Hmm, I forgot about that. The full split Charlotte she used to do was on the right foot. But...she was able to do spins in both directions (which goes good control with both feet) so I'm pretty sure she'd be able to perfect the Charlotte on the left foot if she had to!

 

[Hsuhs]

Because they are both different features that are being executed. Holding any position in a non-combination spin for at least 8 revolutions is now a feature for a level by itself and a "clear increasing of speed" in any Sit, Camel, or Layback position, after the whole position has been established, is now considered a difficult variation.

Why then don't they answer the 1st question with a simple "yes"?