COC:QUESTION, possible spoiler if nobody has seen it.

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I must reiterate that for me, Irina will never be a ballarina in figure skating. Her spirals do not have any stretch (think Sasha or many other skaters with superb stretch) as she holds them in The Queen of Spades. What she is doing, could well be added difficulty but I am not sure of that. It's kind of like bielmann without the spin, and one of the most popular moves in acrobatics.

Irina's body is not conducive to that 19th century line which so many skating fans go bananas over Irina's thighs are much to thick and her calves are much too developed giving her, imo, an athletic body rather than a dancer's body. It's genetic and it is not a fault of not practicing ballet. That's how I see Irina.

I don't see anything exceptional in her back and arms. That is something that many skaters do have. Especially those who skated school figures and those who work at skate dancing. If we were to add 'expressive' back as the ultimate in figure skating, Dorothy Hamil jumps to mind as does Vika Volchkova and they are just a two of strong back skaters. Sarah seemed hunched over and certainly Ivan Zivonavich(sp) did too. I think it would be easier to mention skaters who lack an expressive back so as not to seem too picky.

I, for one, prefer a body which is more supple a la Kwan which can mold the back differently while skating through different moves. Kwan, imo, has body language and that is difficult to find in many skaters. Baiul is among the few who has a supple body and moves in such a way that one is fixated on her skating. Like Kwan, she is speaking to the audience beyond the tricks. These type of skaters do not need over-the-top tricks which will never match Cirque du Soleil.

Irina is a first class figure skater and my odds on favorite to win both this Worlds and Olympics. She's a great athlete and competitor, and she's an oldtimer, and I like that, but I don't like her artistry and that's just me.

And speaking of artistry, I believe the Romance Languages list Figure Skating as Patinage Artistique. Am I Correct? There must be something in figure skating that can be considered artistic if not an art form regardless of the dictionary definition.

Douglas Dunn - A painter? or a photographer? I'd love to see that picture. Ballet Theatre has a poster of Paloma Herrera executing an arabesque ponchet in Times Sqare but she's in tutu. And Betty Grable's pose from the back and looking back with hands on hips is pure classic art for me.

I guess we have to settle with Art is in the eye of the beholder.

Joe

 

[Jaana]

Joe, I saw on FSU the link for Ia-ia´s photos from Cup of Russia. Irina looks slim and rather elegant here:

http://eastonice.free.fr/Olia/CoR/7050IS.jpg

Marjaana

 

[Vash01]

Joe, I saw on FSU the link for Ia-ia´s photos from Cup of Russia. Irina looks slim and rather elegant here:

http://eastonice.free.fr/Olia/CoR/7050IS.jpg

Marjaana

It is a nice picture, but Irina has a different body type from Michelle's or Sasha's. It is like Midori and Tonya had a different body types from Kristi and Chen Lu.

I love Irina and I am rooting for her to win worlds 2005, and skate great at the 2006 Olympics (win or lose). She is definitely not an elegant, balletic skater with extensions. I feel sometimes the judges are swayed by extensions and flexibility of a skater and forget about the skating skills. Of course that does not apply to Michelle or Oksana- they are truly artistic skaters, and their artistry is out of this world, IMO. Irina is a more athletic skater who uses her strength and resources well. I am happy that she is doing the Biellman position on her spirals because she cannot compete with the likes of Michelle or Sasha on a straight leg position. I see nothing wrong with it. I do find the Biellman position a bit overused in her program though.

As Joe said, artistry is in the eyes of the beholder. I like Irina as a whole package.

Vash

 

[millyskate]

Irina has been wonderful in exhibitions, i think she should try that more modern style in comps. And i don't think dance should be used as a barometer to evaluate skater's presentation. It rules out a number of skaters of different styles and would make the whole event uniform and boring. I want Irina to be bouncy and michelle elegant, baboo to powerskate rather than attempt an arabesque and Sandhu to use his dancing skills.

 

[Old Cat Lady]

I must reiterate that for me, Irina will never be a ballarina in figure skating.

I don't think anyone sees Irina as a ballarina. But more importantly, neither 6.0 nor COP is supposed to give a s**t if she's a ballarina.

Irina's body is not conducive to that 19th century line which so many skating fans go bananas over Irina's thighs are much to thick and her calves are much too developed giving her, imo, an athletic body rather than a dancer's body.

I'm glad that COP removes these types of biases that have nothing to do with how good a skater is - at least to some degree.

 

[Mathman]

Rgirl, to me, the trouble with definitions is that if you don't already know what the word means, they don't always help that much. Your first definition of Artist is the most relevant:

"Artist: One, such as a painter, sculptor, or writer, who is able by virtue of imagination and talent or skill to create works of aesthetic value, especially in the fine arts."

But it has that pesky word "aesthetic" in it.

Here is Michelle

and here is Sasha

doing a split jump. Which do you like better? Thanks to Joe's previous explanations of different kinds of split jumps, I can see that the jumps themselves are different, but which appeals more strongly to the aesthetic sensibility? Sasha has a bigger split, plus, IMUO (in my uneducated opinion) she seems to have a more graceful bodily attitude.

Still, I like Michelle's better (LOL). This is a ZOWIE, BATMAN! power move for Michelle. Plus, the way she launches into the air without warning right at the end of her program, it's like she just can't stop herself from celebrating her own performance.

BTW, Joe, I don't think I necessarily agree with your classification of Michelle as a "lyrical" skater and Sasha as a "bravura" skater. To me, that makes it too simple. But that's another thread, LOL.

OT, I suppose, but I just noticed that on her USFSA bio, under "Interests," Sasha lists "Make up and Fashion." Michelle says, "Volleyball and Rollerblading." Different strokes for different folks, both in personal life and in skating style.

Here is another example. When Shen and Zhao came on the scene they were perceived as lacking passion and not relating well to the audience or to each other. They were, that is to say, not European enough. Now that they have "Westernized" their act, they seem to be more acceptable.

The Chinese artistic tradition is 2500 years old. It is full of stylistic nuances and has a certain dignity and reserve. True, to me (an American), S and Z seem more like a married couple when they skate than like young lovers. Maybe that's why I like their style, LOL.

At the other end of the "dignity and reserve" spectrum is an equally entertaining pair, artistic in their own unique way -- Sale and Pelletier.

I love this sport! Don't forget to catch Kristi Yamaguchi, coming on right now, on NBC, LOL.

Mathman

 

[Excidra2001]

I must reiterate that for me, Irina will never be a ballarina in figure skating. Her spirals do not have any stretch (think Sasha or many other skaters with superb stretch) as she holds them in The Queen of Spades. What she is doing, could well be added difficulty but I am not sure of that. It's kind of like bielmann without the spin, and one of the most popular moves in acrobatics.

Irina's body is not conducive to that 19th century line which so many skating fans go bananas over Irina's thighs are much to thick and her calves are much too developed giving her, imo, an athletic body rather than a dancer's body. It's genetic and it is not a fault of not practicing ballet. That's how I see Irina.

I don't see anything exceptional in her back and arms. That is something that many skaters do have. Especially those who skated school figures and those who work at skate dancing. If we were to add 'expressive' back as the ultimate in figure skating, Dorothy Hamil jumps to mind as does Vika Volchkova and they are just a two of strong back skaters. Sarah seemed hunched over and certainly Ivan Zivonavich(sp) did too. I think it would be easier to mention skaters who lack an expressive back so as not to seem too picky.

I, for one, prefer a body which is more supple a la Kwan which can mold the back differently while skating through different moves. Kwan, imo, has body language and that is difficult to find in many skaters. Baiul is among the few who has a supple body and moves in such a way that one is fixated on her skating. Like Kwan, she is speaking to the audience beyond the tricks. These type of skaters do not need over-the-top tricks which will never match Cirque du Soleil.

Irina is a first class figure skater and my odds on favorite to win both this Worlds and Olympics. She's a great athlete and competitor, and she's an oldtimer, and I like that, but I don't like her artistry and that's just me.

And speaking of artistry, I believe the Romance Languages list Figure Skating as Patinage Artistique. Am I Correct? There must be something in figure skating that can be considered artistic if not an art form regardless of the dictionary definition.

Douglas Dunn - A painter? or a photographer? I'd love to see that picture. Ballet Theatre has a poster of Paloma Herrera executing an arabesque ponchet in Times Sqare but she's in tutu. And Betty Grable's pose from the back and looking back with hands on hips is pure classic art for me.

I guess we have to settle with Art is in the eye of the beholder.

Joe

I respectfully disagree with you, Joe. Its fine if you do not see Irina as artistic or what not. I too do not see her as artistic skater, she is a skater who can skate to all kinds of music, and there are not many of them around eligible circuit. She brought life to 'Schindler's list' and in my opinion she topped Paul Wylie's interpretation of 'Schindler's List', which I thought was a great program untill she unveiled her version of 'Schindler's list.' Then there is 'Appassionata' very lyrical and touching program, I thought it was artistically her best program with 'Cry of the forest' a close second. Then there was the emotionally/drama packed Tosca.
She is a skater who did not fit the mold, and in more ways did not want. She is an inspiration to all those young girls who do not have the prefect line, or the "ballerina look". It tells me that they too can become a world class skater, the best in the world without having the line, the prefect posture and basically looking like Kwan/Cohen. Slutskaya curved her own path and found her pot of gold

 

[Rgirl]

Interesting discussion by all. For Joe I'll just reiterate that we'll have to agree to disagree.

As for Douglas Dunn, he's been a leader in the modern dance world, based in New York, for 40 years. When he danced nude on Wall Street, he was in his 50s. Of course that's not all he does, LOL, but he's an artist in my book, just as Irina is, though I wouldn't recommend skating naked for Irina, at least not in competition or shows. (Not that she wouldn't look great, just cold!!!)
Rgirl

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Dear everybody - I respect your views on artistry and in particular of Irina. I just don't share that view.

But you have to admit, How many of you were complaining about Shen and Zhao for not having that european look in 2002? Praises forever were going to B&S for their balletic style. Now you seem to say that that it doesn't matter. Either beautiful line is important or it isn't. Of course, the line should be in accordance with the theme of the performance.

"So I says to him, Warren, I says, you can't have it both ways."

Joe

 

[thvudragon]

She brought life to 'Schindler's list' and in my opinion she topped Paul Wylie's interpretation of 'Schindler's List', which I thought was a great program untill she unveiled her version of 'Schindler's list.'

If you want to see another fantastic Schindler's List program, you should download Galina Maniachenko's SP to Schindler's List. It's one of my favorite ladies SPs.

And Joe, I think you are under the assumption that some people have very one track preferences. Just because someone loved B&Ss balletic style doesn't mean they don't like skaters with non balletic styles. One CAN have it both ways. To add, S&Z were extremely sloppy during the Oly season, so it's perfectly understandable why one would prefer B&S.

 

[Excidra2001]

If you want to see another fantastic Schindler's List program, you should download Galina Maniachenko's SP to Schindler's List. It's one of my favorite ladies SPs.
QUOTE]

ohh goodies, do you know where I can watch it?

 

[Vash01]

If you want to see another fantastic Schindler's List program, you should download Galina Maniachenko's SP to Schindler's List. It's one of my favorite ladies SPs.

And Joe, I think you are under the assumption that some people have very one track preferences. Just because someone loved B&Ss balletic style doesn't mean they don't like skaters with non balletic styles. One CAN have it both ways. To add, S&Z were extremely sloppy during the Oly season, so it's perfectly understandable why one would prefer B&S.

I don't know about being sloppy but S&Z's spins have never been their strong point. What I love about B&S is not just the elegant lines and gorgeous positions, but their breathtaking unison and creative choreography, not to mention their silent blades and speed over the ice. It is not necessary that two skaters or pairs have similar styles in order to be liked by the same person (that depends on the person's taste of course- some are more adaptable). S&Z have progressed since, but I don't look for lines and elegance in their skating, just like I don't look for extensions and lines when Irina skates (or in the past Midori did).

 

[thvudragon]

I don't know about being sloppy but S&Z's spins have never been their strong point. What I love about B&S is not just the elegant lines and gorgeous positions, but their breathtaking unison and creative choreography, not to mention their silent blades and speed over the ice. It is not necessary that two skaters or pairs have similar styles in order to be liked by the same person (that depends on the person's taste of course- some are more adaptable). S&Z have progressed since, but I don't look for lines and elegance in their skating, just like I don't look for extensions and lines when Irina skates (or in the past Midori did).

Back in 02, Hongbo's turns during lifts where extremely scratchy. In the last few seasons he has cleaned them up. They also had the problem of very uneven leg lines which are also better now. Alot of what they did they have cleaned up, so I don't have much of a problem with them now.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

And Joe, I think you are under the assumption that some people have very one track preferences. Just because someone loved B&Ss balletic style doesn't mean they don't like skaters with non balletic styles. One CAN have it both ways. To add, S&Z were extremely sloppy during the Oly season, so it's perfectly understandable why one would prefer B&S.

Sloppy is your term. I would get killed for saying that without the imo in it. No matter, during that period, there was almost conclusive feeling that S&Z had to work on their presentation, that there was no line in their skating as compared to B&S. Yes, that was true but now I'm reading it's ok not to have that line as far as Irina is concerned. duh.

I agree with you Thvudragon, that style is what is presented by the artist and the viewer can like it or not or like it a little but not as much, etc. etc. My comment about having it both ways was a line from an old movie and meant to be amusing. One has to be careful what one says in these forums. Sensitivityt is at it's peak with the various competitions on the horizon.

Joe

 

[diver chick]

I think one of the problems is when skaters try to skate a program not suited to them - it places emphasis on the short comings. S&Z want to be known as elegant skaters with good lines aswell as dynamic exposive skaters, so when they do not have those lines they tend to get criticised more than most. I have heard commentators several times comment on Irinas short comings in that department but it was never a criticism, more an observation that she doesn't have the elegance or the good lines but that she knows it, works on it and tries to hide it.

I sometimes find Irina looks sloppy on the ice but overall her style is not sloppy just not balletic or elegant in the same way as Sasha Cohen or athletic and elegant in the way of Vika Volchkova. It is a more acrobatic and dynamic style, sometimes I feel she should try more fiery and latin music and she often seems to have a very stacatto style to her movements that I think suits the latin style of music. Otherwise a more playful and fun program would be suited to her.

 

[guinevere]

Fascinating discussion! Thanx everyone for your thoughful posts. Just a couple of thoughts inspired by the many random places the thread has gone...

I tend to be most moved by skaters I consider artistic, but to me that does not necessarily equate balletic. Kwan to me is the ultimate skater for her artistry combined with her skating prowess (and yes, she has had a few clunker programs too ) But if I were going to compare, say, Irina to Sasha, I would much rather watch Irina skate. Sasha has gorgeous line, astonishing flexibility, and good presentation. But I always feel like she's "performing", as in "this is what I do to express insert program-suitable emotion", rather than truly inhabiting her programs. While Irina's programs in general may not be aesthetically up my alley, I see her committing to them fully, and I sense passion from her through her skating - and that's artistry in my book. I also saw her start to take chances with her programs in Tosca, which I respect a lot.

I also always thought Shen/Zhao had artistry. I'm glad they got the feedback they did, because it pushed them to a whole new level of relating to each other on the ice, but I always liked their presentation. I do think B/S are superb artists as well.

 

[curious]

great if you can combine great technical content and artistry but when was the last time a great artistic skater won without great technical content?

 

[lavender]

Z and S improved their artistry big time. I thought they were sloppy but each season they continued to improved. It just seem to click eventually.

 

[guinevere]

great if you can combine great technical content and artistry but when was the last time a great artistic skater won without great technical content?

'94 Olys?

 

[Vash01]

Z and S improved their artistry big time. I thought they were sloppy but each season they continued to improved. It just seem to click eventually.

I wish people would refer to Shen & Zhao as S&Z. To me, Z&S are Zagorska & Siudek (Lady first, man second).

They have certainly improved. Still, I don't see them at the same level artistically as B&S, M&D, and G&G. To me, great technique is necessary for great artistry. I am trying to think of an exception to this. The Dushenays come to mind. However, I think only one of their programs really fits the 'great artistic program without great technique' description. S&Z's Turandot program may fit it too.