Does the IJS incentivize boring programs?

[Mathman]

I saw this video about gymnastics titled "12 skills on the beam that we don't see anymore." The narrator makes the point that "code of points" scoring has pushed every performer to do the same elements with the same connecting moves as every other, Obviously, if you get more points for THIS and fewer points for THAT -- well, it is pretty clear what will happen.

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In figure skating, gliding moves like spirals for women and spread-eagles for men have been degraded to the point where they face extinction. Spinning has been pushed farther into the background, and the triumphant one-position, one-edge scratch spin that that used to be the closing climax of a program -- well, that's a level 1. It is worth 1.00 points, or up tp 1.50 points for +5 GOE. A delayed Axel? 1.10 points.

On the other hand, skaters, coaches and choreographers have managed to come up with some satisfying programs in the IJS era despite such restrictions on creativity.

What do you alll think? Is there any particular old-timey move that you would like to see make a comeback?

 

[aroundtheworld778]

I miss the spirals for women. Now they incorporate them as two second choreo elements but there was nothing better than the dramatic music rising and a beautiful spiral to accompany it a la Sasah Cohen or Nicole Bobek.
Watching skating this week with some non-skating friends, there are two things that would attract them more to watching skating: 1) good music (as Morozov said, it all starts with the music), and 2) creative moves that not everyone is doing. For example, Ghir and Ambros have a really cool dismount from a lift that no one else is doing.

 

[ladyjane]

I loved spirals for women, but admittedly some women just shouldn't do them because they have other skills which they can execute better. We still see spirals as part of the choreography by some. Just as we still see spread-eagles and Ina Bauers. But not everyone can do them well. Although I wouldn't mind if the IJS gave them more credit in base value, I also find just that: there still are satisfying programmes. And that certain moves can be done better by some and others by another some. I think for example it would be good to make room for those lovely extended landings that often do not get extra points either, but there's still people doing them!

 

[skatingfan4ever]

Depends on how you define "boring," which can vary based on personal taste. IJS does incentivize getting as many points as possible, which leads to many similar-looking programs. However, there are skaters and choreographers who still find nuances despite the constraints of the rules. For a non-fan, though, everything looks the same and they don't know how to watch for nuances unless someone points it out to them.

I miss the greater choreographic freedom skaters once had in the free skate. Now it's just a longer short program with a few more jumps. I miss "basic" spins that only have one held position for the duration of the spin. Give me a basic stretched camel or sit spin again, rather than the catchfoots and endless variations for the sake of points and the related contortions that are now part of every single spin ever. (And I enjoy several skaters who can spin quite well, so this isn't a knock on them, especially since they are following the rules).

 

[lariko]

I think bringing back backflips was already a mistake.

 

[TontoK]

I kind of like the direction that Ice Dance has gone lately with more choreographic elements. Assisted jumps, spins, slides, and so forth.

I think they add more creativity, although I also agree with critics that say the GOE component on these can be excessive.

The old 6.0 requirement for moves in the field has been semi-replaced with the choreographic sequence, and I'm not against that, I just hate to see it crammed into one little piece of the program. Maybe we could have some unleveled choreographic elements in singles.

I'd much rather see Angela Nikodinov's basic layback than a L4 Layback done by anyone today. And, as you know, I will never stop advocating for the return of big open single axel jumps for men, and a choreographic jump element of 2 rotation or less would open the door for that.

 

[aroundtheworld778]

I loved spirals for women, but admittedly some women just shouldn't do them because they have other skills which they can execute better. We still see spirals as part of the choreography by some. Just as we still see spread-eagles and Ina Bauers. But not everyone can do them well. Although I wouldn't mind if the IJS gave them more credit in base value, I also find just that: there still are satisfying programmes. And that certain moves can be done better by some and others by another some. I think for example it would be good to make room for those lovely extended landings that often do not get extra points either, but there's still people doing them!

I agree, if there is some way to incentivize skaters to do what they do best, but also keep judging objective I’d be all for it.

 

[Skating91]

Maybe give a bonus to four jumps elements in the second half of a free skate rather than three would make things more interesting. Why not five? See some different layouts.

Maybe an even bigger bonus for jumps in the final 20% of a free skate?

Maybe a bigger bonus in a short program for a woman jumping a 3-3 in second half.

Not very interesting watching a skater jump their 3F-3T in the first 20 seconds of the program, taking no risk at all.

Even at World's very few have a 3-3 in the second half of a short program. A female who can jump that 3-3 in the second half deserves more reward given the risk of no second chances. Multiple times harder to jump a 3Lz-3T in the second half than a 3Lo as well.

 

[museksk8r]

I would say there’s evidence to support that the ISU does incentivize boring programs. How many years now have we seen Isabeau Levito skate to the same style of music with the same choreography and small, technically deficient jumps and get over scored, while Lara Naki Gutmann always arrives with music, style and choreography that is unique and makes her stand out and big jumps, yet she is always underscored. I find Levito’s classical style consistently boring, but Gutmann’s style is always fresh and modern, yet she doesn’t get the scores and respect from the judges; however, she is always the darling of fans. It’s endlessly frustrating to me!

 

[Mathman]

The skaters that I admire most are those twho continue to grow and to present interesting content throughout their careers. DickButton is famous for doing the first double Axel (1948 Olympics) and then following up with the first triple jump (1952 Olympics). But he also invented the flying camel spin (1947 worlds).

Patrick Chan came on the scene in 2009 as master of the blade. Then he went to work on choreography and performance. Not content to rest on his laurels, and always moving forward, he added quads to climax his career.

The early Michelle Kwan, under the guidance of Frank Carroll and Lori Nichol, could be counted on for something new every season, however subtle. In 1999 it was a high kick move while up on her toe pick. In 2000 she brought back the Charlotte after 90 years of dormancy.

 

[lariko]

Save for backflip thing comment, I don't think any system inherently invites boring programs. It's a combination of taste, skill, teamwork, communication, resources and just having a good or bad day. The elements are just like plot beats in a movie or a novel. The teams can do what they want with them. Competition adds another level of spice.

In the past season we have seen more and more combinations added that weren’t viable before, there is 4A, the novelty raspberry move and the (not for me) backflips.

I would be very much in favor of penalties for overused music, that's for sure.

 

[Anna K.]

The girl lifting/carrying the guy in Ice Dance.

I miss it a lot.

 

[4everchan]

The IJS is not bringing boring programs. It's been for about 20 years and there has been tons of amazing programs in these two decades.
However, the code of points and the constant tweaking of rules do bring boring programs at times.

For instance, whenever a spin variation can count for a level, you can bet on seeing it ad nauseam. Then, when it's no longer a way to gain ponts, that feature disappears. So in that sense, yes, the IJS but mostly the code of points can bring repetitive features.

 

[Seven Sisters]

One thing that DOES incentivize bad and boring programs are these dreadful “fun” themes the ISU has mandated for the RD over way too many cycles. This year’s theme, “high energy dance” from the 90s (I’m paraphrasing) is especially awful.

I’ve never enjoyed ice dance less than I have this year, and it’s always been my favorite discipline.

 

[4everchan]

One thing that DOES incentivize bad and boring programs are these dreadful “fun” themes the ISU has mandated for the RD over way too many cycles. This year’s theme, “high energy dance” from the 90s (I’m paraphrasing) is especially awful.

I’ve never enjoyed ice dance less than I have this year, and it’s always been my favorite discipline.

Yeah but that's the isu not the ijs

 

[Ilia4A]

How many years now have we seen Isabeau Levito skate to the same style of music with the same choreography and small, technically deficient jumps and get over scored, while Lara Naki Gutmann always arrives with music, style and choreography that is unique and makes her stand out and big jumps, yet she is always underscored. I find Levito’s classical style consistently boring, but Gutmann’s style is always fresh and modern,

Obviously “boring” is subjective, but I prefer Isabeau’s gorgeous skating, lovely lines, and creative choreography over most of the women’s programs that score well. I have seen dozens of programs from the top skaters that are all fairly interchangeable, and yet Isabeau’s are always unique and memorable. I wish skaters like Isabeau would recieve more credit and I would be happy to see more people skate like her - but I think she is one of a kind.

I respect Lara Naki Gutman’s creativity, but her style is far from my favorite.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I think it would help if judges used the full range of GOE, the marks below 0 in particular, for non jump elements. Some things executed with such low quality still earn +GOE as long as the skater doesn't have some huge error. I'd give the level to skaters who do ugly but difficult spins, but there's no need to reward them with bonus points if they aren't done well. I think this would improve the quality of the programs because it would incentivize the skaters to clean up every element, which makes for a more enjoyable skate for fans to see.

 

[Jontor]

Yes

 

[aroundtheworld778]

The IJS is not bringing boring programs. It's been for about 20 years and there has been tons of amazing programs in these two decades.
However, the code of points and the constant tweaking of rules do bring boring programs at times.

For instance, whenever a spin variation can count for a level, you can bet on seeing it ad nauseam. Then, when it's no longer a way to gain ponts, that feature disappears. So in that sense, yes, the IJS but mostly the code of points can bring repetitive features.

Or that level five lift that nearly all the pairs do, with the women in a full split and holding her leg. 90% of women can't do it in an elegant way and yet we see it so much cause it grabs points.

 

[TontoK]

I’ve never enjoyed ice dance less than I have this year, and it’s always been my favorite discipline.

I have seen exactly one RD this season that I have any interest in ever seeing again. I with there was a 12-step program for these. I really don't want to see any more of them, but I also know I can't help myself.

Sometimes I'm surprised when a program I didn't care about grows on me through the season as it becomes more polished. So, fingers crossed. And maybe some I haven't seen yet will interest me more.