East German Figure Skaters

[brad640]

I don't know about your take on Jutta, Brad.

That is understandable. There are many unanswered questions about that period, particularly with regard to the extent of Jutta Muller’s duplicity and the frequency of blood doping practices among GDR figure skaters. However, it is common knowledge that the GDR had no regard for the safety of its athletes when it came to illegal substances. I feel that the circumstances of GDR figure skating raise strong suspicions of foul play because the program produced 3 consecutive ladies’ gold medals during a period when doping was rampant, and once the infrastructure that supported doping and manipulation was dismantled, there were no subsequent successes.

I do feel the analogy to Russia is valid because the Soviets had a similar system with regard to recruiting promising youth and competing on the basis of national pride, but even after economic and political upheaval the sound fundamentals and talent were sufficient to continue to produce champions.

I agree with you that the Canadians are largely biased, but I feel there is truth to Toller Cranston’s accounts of the Lake Placid Games and his experience as a commentator in his first two autobiographies, and the chapter about Katarina in one of his recent books, where he discusses her as a symbol for the troubled athletes of the GDR and recounts his conversations with GDR figure skaters over the years.

For me, there are too many red flags to be explained, and I find it somewhat twisted to look wistfully back at the days of the GDR and even express hope that those days would return. I hope that there will be an official investigation into the GDR practices with regard to figure skating. In any case, the athletes were victimized and do not deserve to have their accomplishments undermined, but the coaches and officials should be exposed as the thugs they were.

I wouldn't blame the E.Germans for initating the huge size difference between the male and female Pairs team.

The ethical problem with the GDR pairs was not that they paired a big man with a small girl, but that they used harmful drugs to get the athletes at that size and keep them that way. That was not the case in other countries.

brad... maybe I missed the hint - but I really begin to wonder where you got all those "infos" from. Were you lying under the bed or what??

I would rather face the GDR firing squad than find myself trapped under Muller and Grunwald’s bed.

 

[attyfan]

Just out of curiosity, what drugs, if any, would be helpful in skating -- especially in the compulsory figures? I know what the East Germans did in terms of giving steroids to their swimmers or runners without consent -- and the fact that the swimmers/runners/etc were very young, and all lived together made it difficult to notice the physical changes (since the same changes were happening to everyone, it would look "normal") -- but the physical changes caused by the steroids (increased muscle) are helpful in swimming or running. I know that blood doping is supposed to help with endurance, but the East German ladies (reputedly) excelled in figures -- is muscular endurance needed to do figures?

 

[SusanBeth]

That is understandable. There are many unanswered questions about that period, particularly with regard to the extent of Jutta Muller’s duplicity and the frequency of blood doping practices among GDR figure skaters. However, it is common knowledge that the GDR had no regard for the safety of its athletes when it came to illegal substances. I feel that the circumstances of GDR figure skating raise strong suspicions of foul play because the program produced 3 consecutive ladies’ gold medals during a period when doping was rampant, and once the infrastructure that supported doping and manipulation was dismantled, there were no subsequent successes.

I:

The flaw in this logic is that the infrastructure that supported figure skating collapsed at the time. Not only that, the system of government, the economy, and pretty much the entire social structure went gasping to it's end. Since people had all they could handle trying to cope, it's not suprising that producing champions was not a priority. That doesn't necessarily have anything to do with doping.

 

[76olympics]

I love the footnote in the Katarina chapter in Toller's book, "Ice Cream":

Katarina Witt declined the opportunity to corroborate the accuracy of the factual material in this chapter, remarking, "Why answer questions? Toller will write what he wants anyway."

Actually, the two seem to like each other very much. Katarina made a point of choosing him to be in her movie, "Ice Princess", when he was in a pretty bleak period. He was very appreciative of the gesture --and admired her competitive drive. I think most know that Toller's books are highly flavored by his personality which is colorful, to say the least. But-I do think he knows more about the atmosphere of those days than I do. I don't doubt that the the sports machine existed--but only time (and documents!) may reveal the extent of it.

 

[SkateFan4Life]

Thanks for the nice comments, Bronze. It’s my pleasure to write these posts. And thank you for taking the time to read them! I know they tend to be long, but I get carried away with my enthusiasm for figure skating.

Katarina Witt was a master at psyching out the competition. It’s not that she actually said anything to the rest of the field, but by her actions, presence, and manner, she pretty much pulled a mental job out there.

For example, during the long program practices, when a skater’s music is played and that skater has the right of way, Witt would often “choreograph” and skate to the music while the other skater was doing the same. It must have been intimidating to some to see the reigning World and Olympic champion skate to your music, as if to say, “Look what I can do with your music!”

Roz Sumners, who lost the 1984 Olympic gold medal to Witt, said that Kat used to give “looks” and “stares” at the competition. “It was really weird”, she said. Although they are good friends now, it wasn’t that situation when they competed against each other.

Witt did not have the most technically difficult programs, as she did not have a triple lutz, her triple loop was inconsistent at best, and she usually did not attempt her triple flip. At Sarajevo, she pulled the flip out of her long program because she knew Sumners had also removed her flip. Witt said, “I only did what I needed to do to win.”

 

[SkateFan4Life]

I pulled my copy of the “Sports Illustrated” 1988 Summer Olympics Preview issue, and I’d like to share a few quotes from their article “A Teutonic Juggernaut – By Excelling in sports, East Germans can enjoy many privileges, including the right to travel beyond the Wall. And excel they do.”

“Westerners envision East German athletes as having all sorts of state-of-the-art technology at their disposal. You would never get that idea from the College for Physical Culture, a decrepit agglomeration of dingy halls and outbuildings that covers 36 acres in downtown Leipzig. It looks like Medicine Ball Tool & Dye. The most visually impressive thing is just off the entrance hall of the main classroom building; a vague cubist portrait of figure skating diva Katarina Witt. She looks nothing like the coquette she has been portrayed as in the West, but rather like Mother Courage. She’s wearing a brown smock and an expression that seems to radiate the “socialist personality traits” that government literature gives sports the responsibility of inculcating.”

 

[temujin]

The use of steroids, blood doping, etc... was not what I meant by the "good aspects" of the East German sport system.

Rather I think the systematic early identification of talent/potential, support for the athletes' training/development, bringing coaches and athletes together at sports institutes/facilities for elite sports training were some good points. Obviously no person should be forced into any sport, but a more structured approach like the former East Germany has some benefits. This does not mean I look back fondly at the former East German regime, but why not take the best aspects from different sport systems to make an existing sport system better? I got the impression this was not done following German re-unification.

On the topic of steroids, blood doping, etc..., I agree with an earlier comment that each accusation of doping has to be taken on a case by case basis. Nor is taking performance enhancing drugs confined to former East bloc athletes.

 

[brad640]

The flaw in this logic is that the infrastructure that supported figure skating collapsed at the time. Not only that, the system of government, the economy, and pretty much the entire social structure went gasping to it's end. Since people had all they could handle trying to cope, it's not suprising that producing champions was not a priority. That doesn't necessarily have anything to do with doping.

How is that any different from what happened in Russia? Russian coaches faced all of those obstacles, and some like Mishin stayed in the mother country and worked with what was left there while others like TT went to the US. Whatever recourse they took, they found ways to make it work, unlike Muller and the other GDR outcasts who now sit around and blame lack of talent for their obscurity.

 

[SusanBeth]

Russia had more resources and much, much better skaters and coaches. Many of the Russian skaters could support their skating in the West while still competeing. Russian coaches could pick and choose their students. I have read that some of the coaches helped support their skaters.

German skaters weren't nearly as revered in the west and they had how many famous coaches? Their system was not nearly as robust. IMO, Poetzsch wouldn't have been successful as a pro in the US. She was a cutie but a really boring skater. Witt was very fortunate. She was beautiful and had been successful long enough to develop a fan base here, Frankly, I wouldn't have paid to watch her at her best. The rest of the East German skaters just did not have the ability to earn their own way.

 

[tdnuva]

How is that any different from what happened in Russia? Russian coaches faced all of those obstacles, and some like Mishin stayed in the mother country and worked with what was left there while others like TT went to the US. Whatever recourse they took, they found ways to make it work, unlike Muller and the other GDR outcasts who now sit around and blame lack of talent for their obscurity.

Again - there are many differences between the German reunion and the Russian glasnost. You talk as if you were living in the former Eastern bloc and know everything first hand. Can you please say for once what legitimates you to those definite remarks?

 

[brad640]

Hi tdnuva

If you are looking for conclusive answers on this topic, you can tell by reading this thread that there are none. You can read my previous posts where I mentioned the best sources I know of for information. There is also a book called Faust’s Gold that recounts the information contained in affidavits of the GDR doping trials. Although that book focuses on steroid use and does not specifically address blood doping in figure skating, or the underhanded treatment of skaters at the hands of the GDR skating federation, it does give an idea of the general philosophy of the GDR.

GDR figure skating continues to be a murky subject for many reasons such as:
1) lack of funding on the part of the ISU and IOC to conduct an official investigation into practices that are no longer a threat to athletes’ well-being
2) apathy on the part of figure skating fans to delve into the sad details of that time,
3) reluctance of skaters to speak out, for example Katarina has never confirmed or denied that she ever engaged in doping and likely will not as long as she has opportunity to profit from her image as an athlete, as with her upcoming reality show

I know from reading your other posts that you have knowledge of German history and culture, so I assume you have your own opinions of what went on. I would be interested to hear what you have to say about doping and figure skating under the GDR.

 

[tdnuva]

I know from reading your other posts that you have knowledge of German history and culture, so I assume you have your own opinions of what went on. I would be interested to hear what you have to say about doping and figure skating under the GDR.

Hm. My knowledge comes from the fact that I am German. Living here all my life. But western Germany, so what I know about the GDR is either mainly (except two visits) from after 1989 or told by friends. First of all I think - like you obviusly - there is not only one debate but a lot. Many reasons for many things happening. I generally doubt easy answers for easy questions

Sure there was doping. But like others here I too have doubts that it was a big problem in skating, just as I don't see the benefit compared to other sports.

Afaik there was no investigation in the GDR skating world about doping, but there were in other sports. Some are still running afaik, mainly cause some athletes came out rather late with their stories. Maybe there is still more to come.

And it's easy to say there should be more investigations. But they are not only good in every way. Even for the sport itself. E.g. cause they take time. A lot of time. And in between everything concerned is in agony. In some sports those investigations are necessary mostly for the benefit of the former athletes who were forced to take drugs and still suffer due to the effects. But I don't see that in skating. Another problem is - and that is no Esatern bloc problem - that officials have usually a good strategy to be kept out of the problems. See the ISU. And I'd rather have them hanged than the lowest level. Sometimes big uproars deliver just alibis for the ones who originally directed the scheme. Again, this is no GDR problem, but a basic one in institutions.

The big difference between the GDR and Russia in the last decade was that the GDR and FRG were reunited. Russia was decreased in size. In Russia this still left several areas of skating work kind of untouched. It left a lot of other sports untouched, too, even concerning doping. Whereas Germany was kind of forced to bring together two systems which had not much in common. Due to mainly political reasons this often meant, the ex-west system survived and not much of the old eastern system. But mind - this was not the case in every sport. And it concerns mostly the work on school level, children age. In the senior sport there are still a lot of training bases in eastern Germany who survived. It still is kind of a competitive situation between east and west sometimes, but there is not only black and white.

All in all I tend to see rather the persons behind the "system". Jutta Müller e.g. or Kati Witt are not mere political figures. They are persons who survived in a system I wish for nobody. Yeah, there were some good things in the former GDR, but the suppressing of different opinions had effects on everyday lives as well as life-long decisions and overshadowed the good things a lot. I know a lot of people who lived there, met some of them during the GDR time and many after - and I don't try to judge about all of their lives in general. Most just tried to live an ordinary life, play with the system, not too much but not too less to make life as easy as possible. The same as we all do in every society. And from all I ever read and heard of those mentioned above they did just the same. Only - the rest of the world noticed them more as they noticed e.g. my friends who had other professions. As long as they did nothing criminal themselves (like giving other drugs, working as spy, whatever), I don't see why they should be seen only negative from certain people. Sometimes it sounds really arrogant in my ears to judge about them from a point of view far away from the situation they were in.

Maybe I get beaten for that view, too. It shall not apologize anything like doping or block judging. But come on - we all know that neither was an exclusive thing only in eastern Europe.

Enough for the moment?

 

[Ptichka]

But come on - we all know that neither was an exclusive thing only in eastern Europe.

True, but in most cases it's private institutions that engage in the illegal dope-related activities. Back when I was pretty little, we used to spend summers in this nice town in Estonia where a lot of Moscovites and Leningradians would spend their vacations. I became friends with this girl whose parents were extremely well to do by Soviet standards. They had a cool car; my father still recalls the cognacs that this girl's father wold treat him to. Guess what the girl's father's job was? It had two facets. On the one hand, he had to develop ways of detecting existing drugs so that the use could be detected in athletes of other countries. On the other hand, he had to invent new drugs that would avoid others' detection (all of this he told my father after enough cognac loosened his tongue). He also spent a lot of time GDR, I'm assuming on consulting scientists there. Now, he had no control of how is inventions where used. He never knew what athletes did or did not use them. But the case remains, that he worked for a governmental organization that paid him extremely well for coming up with new doping.

 

[SkateFan4Life]

The use of steroids, blood doping, etc... was not what I meant by the "good aspects" of the East German sport system.

Rather I think the systematic early identification of talent/potential, support for the athletes' training/development, bringing coaches and athletes together at sports institutes/facilities for elite sports training were some good points. Obviously no person should be forced into any sport, but a more structured approach like the former East Germany has some benefits. This does not mean I look back fondly at the former East German regime, but why not take the best aspects from different sport systems to make an existing sport system better? I got the impression this was not done following German re-unification.QUOTE]

Katarina Witt lived a stone's throw away from the local skating rink, and she wanted to learn to skate at a very early age. She received free training throughout her eligible (then - amateur) career, all courtesy of the GDR. Witt clearly loved to skate, she loved to perform to audiences, she loved to compete, and she loved to win. She was proud to represent her country. IMHO, it was a win-win situation for her and the GDR. In no way am I defending the government
that existed in East Germany, the repression, the secret police, etc. However, their system of pooling the best talent and providing them with the best available training was a stroke of genius, IMHO. It certainly paid off, big-time for the GDR, with multiple World and Olympic medals in figure skating.

 

[brad640]

Thanks for writing that post tdnuva. I loved reading your comments.

Sometimes it sounds really arrogant in my ears to judge about them from a point of view far away from the situation they were in.

I will not beat you for your views I agree with you that most people did the best they could under the system, but I think that most drew the line when it came to stepping on others to make their own lives easier, as was the case with Muller, Grunwald and others who took advantage of the athletes.

 

[tdnuva]

I agree with you that most people did the best they could under the system, but I think that most drew the line when it came to stepping on others to make their own lives easier, as was the case with Muller, Grunwald and others who took advantage of the athletes.

I still see no proofs for that opinion. At least nothing which indicates something worse than almost every coach does. Like choosing whom he/she coaches. I hear a lot of complaints by skaters about that (sometimes justified, sometimes not), this is nothing GDR specific. You make it sound like they are big evil figures who arbitrarily chose skaters and dismissed others. Can you please unfold what exactly builds up this opinion of yours?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think in the communist world the most important thing for a competitor was to win for the State! any which way it could. There was no tradition of the ideal sportsman of letting the best man win. It had to be first place. It showed the power of the State.

Cheating in sports still goes on in most countries, but it is not a national policy as far as I know. It is the individual competitor (or his coach) who cheat. It's more of an ego trip than a state power trip.

Joe

 

[brad640]

You make it sound like they are big evil figures who arbitrarily chose skaters and dismissed others.

Yes, I see them as evil figures. I do not think they were arbitrary in who they favored, but I think it was based on who they thought would get them the most money, because Muller took the money her skaters earned.

 

[tdnuva]

Yes, I see them as evil figures. I do not think they were arbitrary in who they favored, but I think it was based on who they thought would get them the most money, because Muller took the money her skaters earned.

Sorry - but where exactly is the difference to a lot of other coaches in the skating world?? Joubert dismissed his coach cause she wanted a higher portion. Coaches are known for not sharing their time with every skater proportionally. Things like that are just this way. Or do you think all other coaches except Müller did their work only to benefit their beloved skaters and were not at all interested in money?

 

[brad640]

Sorry - but where exactly is the difference to a lot of other coaches in the skating world?? Joubert dismissed his coach cause she wanted a higher portion. Coaches are known for not sharing their time with every skater proportionally. Things like that are just this way. Or do you think all other coaches except Müller did their work only to benefit their beloved skaters and were not at all interested in money?

The difference is that those skaters have the option of leaving their coach if they don't like the situation, and they can continue their careers, unlike GDR skaters who had to accept everything or face the police.