Eunsoo Lim to be coached by Arutunian
- Thread starter MarinHondas
- Start date
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2007
I think Marin and Eunsoo will push each other, and that Raf will be a good coach for both.
The nationalist in me wishes he would take an American lady, however.
The nationalist in me wishes he would take an American lady, however.
I am glad Eunsoo is going to train abroad! I did not expect that she and Marin will have the same coach. I agree that they will push each other and an interesting rivalry could develop again between two skaters who share the same coach.
I am baffled at the criticism here directed at Raf as a coach. For the most part, I only see skaters improving after he started coaching them. He is a respected and popular coach for a reason. Furthermore, I think in terms of female skaters, Raf has more success and experience overall compared to Orser. I think fans usually look to Yuna's success and want skaters to go to Orser, but outside of Yuna, Orser's success lies mostly in his male students. If you look at the careers of Christina Gao and Elizabet Tursynbaeva, they aren't that impressive. On the other hand, Raf' has shown success with female skaters of a wide range of talent and personality: Michelle, Mao, Ashley.
Raf can be strict and sometimes too honest in interviews, but I also feel that he allows his skaters to be themselves, which is why he was able to work successfully with Adam and Ashley who have very independent mindsets and personalities. I think this will be good for both Eunsoo and Marin, who would probably be given more freedom and control in their skating.
I am baffled at the criticism here directed at Raf as a coach. For the most part, I only see skaters improving after he started coaching them. He is a respected and popular coach for a reason. Furthermore, I think in terms of female skaters, Raf has more success and experience overall compared to Orser. I think fans usually look to Yuna's success and want skaters to go to Orser, but outside of Yuna, Orser's success lies mostly in his male students. If you look at the careers of Christina Gao and Elizabet Tursynbaeva, they aren't that impressive. On the other hand, Raf' has shown success with female skaters of a wide range of talent and personality: Michelle, Mao, Ashley.
Raf can be strict and sometimes too honest in interviews, but I also feel that he allows his skaters to be themselves, which is why he was able to work successfully with Adam and Ashley who have very independent mindsets and personalities. I think this will be good for both Eunsoo and Marin, who would probably be given more freedom and control in their skating.
Raf actually didn’t work with either Mao or Michelle for that long (I believe less than 2 years each) and that was years ago.
He is known more for coaching men and it seems that has been his recent priority - and he is known for having a pecking order of priority and attention among his students. Nathan is at the top right now, but there was a time he was below Adam and Ashley.
Not saying that this won’t work out for Eunsoo and Marin - but there are certain realities of being coached by Raf.
He is known more for coaching men and it seems that has been his recent priority - and he is known for having a pecking order of priority and attention among his students. Nathan is at the top right now, but there was a time he was below Adam and Ashley.
Not saying that this won’t work out for Eunsoo and Marin - but there are certain realities of being coached by Raf.
Orser coached Gabrielle Daleman to a National Title and 4CC and Worlds medals. I don't think Michelle and Mao are good examples of Raf's teaching ability as neither of were with him for long nor went to new heights when they were with him.
Elizabet Tursynbaeva's SS has visible significant improvement!
yes this is true and this interview with Brian Orser is a good read regarding that
http://fs-gossips.com/brian-orser-in-my-kitchen-there-will-never-be-a-room-for-a-second-cook/
I wouldn’t say Raf is really more known for having successful ladies skaters. Mainly Ashley - he coached Mao and Michelle over a decade ago and neither for the long term.
As far as I know, Raf hasn’t successfully coached any ladies skaters from childhood thru adulthood - the only skater to stay with him through this period is Nathan.
Conrad has moved from YRSA to TCC but he is working with Lee Barkell and not Brian Orser.
Anyway I'm very happy for Eunsoo's move, despite being a junior she's one of my favourites. Having a more powerful (and experienced) coach will be beneficial to her, her SB isn't high enough to guarantee her a GP spot but hopefully she will snag at least one.
Anyway I'm very happy for Eunsoo's move, despite being a junior she's one of my favourites. Having a more powerful (and experienced) coach will be beneficial to her, her SB isn't high enough to guarantee her a GP spot but hopefully she will snag at least one.
Gabby’s main coach is Lee Barkell. Orser is not always with her.
Both these two young ladies teams must have done their due diligence before sending their girls here. It is not that Japan and Korea are in some isolated place without knowing much about Raf. It is possible one team made some dumb move just because they witnessed Raf's success with Nathan, but two girls' teams and their feds, with possible two male skaters from China in planning, it couldn't be all these people are making bad decisions without investigation and analysis.
Whatever we see happening is what their teams could get the best for their skaters at this moment, after weighing all pros and cons. Training with Raf must meet either some short term goals or some long term goals that is why the two girls are coming to Lakewood.
I have issues with Raf, which has already been voiced by one of the posters, that is the psychological/mental issues of his athletes. Plus Raf is a very tough coach, no sweet talk or sugar coating, even Adam thought Raf is tough. So the girls might have tough time in the beginning.
But other than that, SoCal is a nice place to live, and team Raf does have very fun people. Romain, Mariah, Nathan seemed to have endless fun outside training, barbecue party, beach party, hockey games, shopping trips, you name it.
Whatever we see happening is what their teams could get the best for their skaters at this moment, after weighing all pros and cons. Training with Raf must meet either some short term goals or some long term goals that is why the two girls are coming to Lakewood.
I have issues with Raf, which has already been voiced by one of the posters, that is the psychological/mental issues of his athletes. Plus Raf is a very tough coach, no sweet talk or sugar coating, even Adam thought Raf is tough. So the girls might have tough time in the beginning.
But other than that, SoCal is a nice place to live, and team Raf does have very fun people. Romain, Mariah, Nathan seemed to have endless fun outside training, barbecue party, beach party, hockey games, shopping trips, you name it.
Michelle Kwan went to Raf during the twilight years of her career and was able to win her last National Title and her final medal at Worlds.
Mao won her first senior Worlds medal and medaled at all her events when she was coached by Raf. Although they parted ways before 2008 Worlds, he still played a major part in training her towards getting her first Worlds title.
Even though they weren't coached by him for long, it was successful considering what the skaters were looking for at the time. Especially in Mao's case, he definitely took her to new heights. Any rising skater would love to have the career start that Mao had during her first two years as a senior competitor.
Yea, I think one simple factor could be the location. It's also more convenient to travel back to Asia from LA.
Another factor to consider is that Nathan is going to school full-time and training part-time, so there will be long periods of time when Raf can devote all of his attention to his new skaters. Hanyu is going to continue for the time being and will remain top priority for Orser.
Is there a considerable difference between training under Team Raf and being coached by Raf specifically? What are the chances that Eunsoo, although will be coached by Raf, is actually gonna spend more time training with others (i.e. Vera) to improve parts of her skating?
I would assume Eunsoo is going for Raf. It seems that most everyone who goes to Raf goes with the goal of improving their jumps.
I’m not sure of the exact set up of time with Raf vs. Nadia/Vera - but from the results produced - no one has been able to show much evidence that any of Raf’s skaters have improved significantly in spins, SS since joining Team Raf.
From the most recent results, it also does not seem like Raf is particularly strong in coaching ladies (other than Ashley) nor does he particularly focus on them.
But with Nathan going away to college - this could change ? Raf did recently mention the possibility of traveling to Yale this upcoming season to help Nathan prepare for 6-10 days before competitions. Not sure if this is really going to happen and if it does - would he bring other students with him.
I’m not sure of the exact set up of time with Raf vs. Nadia/Vera - but from the results produced - no one has been able to show much evidence that any of Raf’s skaters have improved significantly in spins, SS since joining Team Raf.
From the most recent results, it also does not seem like Raf is particularly strong in coaching ladies (other than Ashley) nor does he particularly focus on them.
But with Nathan going away to college - this could change ? Raf did recently mention the possibility of traveling to Yale this upcoming season to help Nathan prepare for 6-10 days before competitions. Not sure if this is really going to happen and if it does - would he bring other students with him.
It’s also true that no one who went to him before went specifically with the goal to improve their spins and steps. Most of his skaters needed help with their jump technique more than anything else so that became the number 1 priority. Nathan is a little different in that they focused on quads above everything else because that was his ticket to get the top as fast as possible. I’m interested to see what he’ll do with a skater who specifically needs help with the spins and steps more than the jumps. I’ll willing to give the partnership a chance and see what happens. It’s definitely better than her staying in Korea and stagnating.
Does Orser really have that much of an advantage based on recent results? As another poster mentioned, Daleman is mainly coached by Lee Barkell.
Actually if one goes by actual results with Ladies in recent years, it’s either Hamada or Eteri’s group, and neither seems like an option for Eunsoo.
Honestly, considering how COP works, I think all skaters focus mostly on improving jumps or adding difficulty. If skating skills were valued that highly, Eter’s group wouldn’t be winning all the time imo. Usually when a skater moves abroad to train, it’s for better facilities, resources, and more freedom. In terms of spins, I sometimes wonder why Marin has difficulty on getting the levels, because Satoko is a great spinner, so Hamada knows how to teach spins. It could be a conditioning or just less practice on the skater’s part. I think Eunsoo could definitely improve her conditioning with better resources and this will help her improve stamina and control in her skating.
I follow Nathan closely - and I see the good and bad of Raf as a coach.
SS, transitions, jump quality - these will all be more important with the upcoming rule changes. Nathan has acknowledged this as well - quads alone won’t be enough for success and he wants to improve his SS
Raf has been quoted before saying program components are not terribly important - but he could possibly change his opinion on this
It seems that a skater needs quite a lot of self motivation to succeed with him - it is a crowded group and personal attention may be limited. Adam and Ashley were older when they went to Raf and achieved success with him, and their age and maturity may have helped. Nathan has had to go outside Team Raf to get the help he needs (such as his months with Marina, SS help when he went to Lori, extra trips to Lori for support with choreo), a lot of strength training and cardio outside of the rink (not sure how much of this is supervised by Team Raf, Nathan has his own PT from Olympic Training Center)
From following Nathan and say compared to somewhere like the Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs, I wouldn’t say Lakewood is an amazing facility with amazing resources. Nathan has had to regularly drive to other rinks in socal (and the traffic there can be brutal) to get ice time. Lakewood is also a hockey rink so ice time is limited.
Not saying this won’t work for Eunsoo and Marin - and I hope for future success for them - but these are the realities of training with Team Raf.
SS, transitions, jump quality - these will all be more important with the upcoming rule changes. Nathan has acknowledged this as well - quads alone won’t be enough for success and he wants to improve his SS
Raf has been quoted before saying program components are not terribly important - but he could possibly change his opinion on this
It seems that a skater needs quite a lot of self motivation to succeed with him - it is a crowded group and personal attention may be limited. Adam and Ashley were older when they went to Raf and achieved success with him, and their age and maturity may have helped. Nathan has had to go outside Team Raf to get the help he needs (such as his months with Marina, SS help when he went to Lori, extra trips to Lori for support with choreo), a lot of strength training and cardio outside of the rink (not sure how much of this is supervised by Team Raf, Nathan has his own PT from Olympic Training Center)
From following Nathan and say compared to somewhere like the Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs, I wouldn’t say Lakewood is an amazing facility with amazing resources. Nathan has had to regularly drive to other rinks in socal (and the traffic there can be brutal) to get ice time. Lakewood is also a hockey rink so ice time is limited.
Not saying this won’t work for Eunsoo and Marin - and I hope for future success for them - but these are the realities of training with Team Raf.
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2003
While I agree Raf himself is probably not the best coach for ss or other non-jump aspects of skating, him saying program components aren’t important was very likely taken out of context and also very likely it was not what he meant as an ESL or things could’ve been not so accurately translated. With Raf, I don’t think we can always take what’s being reported word for word, partly because of his interview style, partly because of the language thing. Regardless of how anyone feels about the actual result of it, he wouldn’t have sent Nathan to Shae or Lori or Marina if he didn’t believe PCS were important.
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