Frank Carroll to Assist with Team USA Mentoring Program

[MK's Winter]

I'd be thrilled to see either Katia or Tai mentor some US pairs; both have wonderful qualities and experiences to bring to the table. My new fantasy: Katia does for US pairs what Zoueva did for ice dance!

I agree, although I think a pairs committee would be a great idea as well. Have consultants like Katia, Tai, Meno/Sand with a Tamara Moskivina like Director. That kind of combination working with our younger pairs, I think, would greatly help out US pairs.

 

[skatedreamer]

I agree, although I think a pairs committee would be a great idea as well. Have consultants like Katia, Tai, Meno/Sand with a Tamara Moskivina like Director. That kind of combination working with our younger pairs, I think, would greatly help out US pairs.

Golly, how could I forget Moskvina? Sounds like a dream team to me...

 

[Jammers]

I'd be thrilled to see either Katia or Tai mentor some US pairs; both have wonderful qualities and experiences to bring to the table.

My new fantasy: Katia does for US pairs what Zoueva did for ice dance!

I think Igor deserves as much if not more credit for the rise of US Dance teams internationally. He's the one who pushed American teams technically so they could compete against the best.

 

[MK's Winter]

I think Igor deserves as much if not more credit for the rise of US Dance teams internationally. He's the one who pushed American teams technically so they could compete against the best.[/QUOTE

Agreed. He was the technician of the 2.

 

[WeakAnkles]

Sorry but this is a really stupid argument. Where are the judges supposed to be from? Jamaica? How are they supposed to know about the sport in the depth that they should to judge if they don't have a skating program in their country? Think about all the years of collective knowledge about the sport in America and Russia. Should all that be lost to the judging community?

Sorry but that's an equally stupid argument. What? People from countries with no established figure skating program can't be trained to judge? Should people with NO axe to grind or federation to placate be lost to the judging community simply because they aren't from a country with a strong figure skating tradition? In fact, I would suspect they would have MORE credibility, specifically because of those reasons.

 

[seabm7]

I mean, a ton of coaches will do short term coaching and consulting... I *think* I read another thread in this forum that reported a bunch of South Korean figure skating association youngsters being shipped to Canada for two weeks to work with Brian orser...

Is there anyone who remembers details on this news? It is quite interesting to me.

 

[ice coverage]

Is there anyone who remembers details on this news? It is quite interesting to me.

Do not remember re Orser, but something along the same lines is that Coquitlam Skating Club in Canada has hosted visiting Koreans for years. A message on the CSC home page earlier this summer:

You might notice some new skaters around the rink over the next few weeks. We have ... 14 skaters from Korea taking lessons from a number of our club coaches. .... The Korean skaters love Canada and the Coquitlam Skating Club and have been training at our club for over 8 years....
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...-by-Discipline&p=945185&viewfull=1#post945185​

 

[seabm7]

Do not remember re Orser, but something along the same lines is that Coquitlam Skating Club in Canada has hosted visiting Koreans for years. A message on the CSC home page earlier this summer:

You might notice some new skaters around the rink over the next few weeks. We have ... 14 skaters from Korea taking lessons from a number of our club coaches. .... The Korean skaters love Canada and the Coquitlam Skating Club and have been training at our club for over 8 years....
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...-by-Discipline&p=945185&viewfull=1#post945185​

Thank you!

 

[blue dog]

here is the latest article regarding this:

http://skatingmagazineblog.com/2014...-fellow-coaches-in-mentor-role/#comment-11544

Odd, they mention that he coaches Kanako Murakami?

Carroll, 75, will continue to coach U.S. champion Gracie Gold, Olympic bronze medalist Denis Ten, of Kazakhstan, Japan’s Kanako Murakami and Cheyenne Taylor, who placed seventh at the novice level at the 2014 U.S. Championships.

 

[dasani]

here is the latest article regarding this:

http://skatingmagazineblog.com/2014...-fellow-coaches-in-mentor-role/#comment-11544

Odd, they mention that he coaches Kanako Murakami?

They must have meant Daisuke Murakami instead

 

[jace93]

They must have meant Daisuke Murakami instead

Yeah it was written in the icenetwork article about the slat lake city competition that Daisuke is training with Carrol... even though it would be interesting see if Kanako scores would improve with a little bit of politiking by Frank Carrol ... apart from the underrotation issue her pcs are criminally low respect her competitiors

 

[RobinA]

I'm in favor of anything that might bring US figure skating out of this current doldrum. Then I'm in favor of anything that could raise US Pairs to the level of doldrums.

 

[Matilda]

I think the conflict of interest should be a serious consideration here. I'm not sold on this idea at all. Not that mentoring as such isn't a good idea, but it really should be someone--and preferably more than one person, imo--who is not coaching at the moment.

 

[StitchMonkey]

I'm in favor of anything that might bring US figure skating out of this current doldrum. Then I'm in favor of anything that could raise US Pairs to the level of doldrums.

So Kardashianesque sex tape for pairs?

I lack optimism about American pairs due to my lack of faith in American parents. As long as parents have some say in the kid's skating (which they almost always will) there will be parents that screw up their kid's careers. There will always be parents that think their little darling is better than everyone else and how good they really are. I can't imagine how much it must suck for kids having to hear their parents rant and rave and blame their partner. Yes there, will also be parents that decide for more legitimate reasons to make changes, but I am sure many times that screws over the partner unfairly, or more so than it would had parties been more honest.

It's like taking two random stage moms and telling them they have to work together to make both their kids look good, and not better than eachother. Maybe there is trashing reality TV potential for kids pairs. . . but I can't decide if that would "raise it to the level of doldrums" or slink it farther away from respectability.

 

[blue dog]

I lack optimism about American pairs due to my lack of faith in American parents. As long as parents have some say in the kid's skating (which they almost always will) there will be parents that screw up their kid's careers. There will always be parents that think their little darling is better than everyone else and how good they really are. I can't imagine how much it must suck for kids having to hear their parents rant and rave and blame their partner. Yes there, will also be parents that decide for more legitimate reasons to make changes, but I am sure many times that screws over the partner unfairly, or more so than it would had parties been more honest.

It's like taking two random stage moms and telling them they have to work together to make both their kids look good, and not better than eachother. Maybe there is trashing reality TV potential for kids pairs. . . but I can't decide if that would "raise it to the level of doldrums" or slink it farther away from respectability.

It's not just parents that kill off pairs; it's mostly the American mentality. The mentality is very much "the individual must make it." Although Americans love team sports like "football", basketball, and baseball, amongst those team sports, they identify individual stars. These individual stars are always praised. It's one of the reasons why the US hasn't done well in the World Cup since its inception. A team like Germany plays like a team. In pairs, we rarely get the sense that they're skating as a team; we get two singles skaters who happen to lift. The current rules actually favor the american mentality (harder jumps in pairs, singles-like spins/footwork sequences), but very few pairs want to skate as one.

Sorry for taking this thread in another direction. Back to Frank Carroll-- I think I like his new role, and it isn't a conflict of interest, at all. Many of the successful skaters have taken from Frank before, at their coach's urging. Polina Edmunds works with Frank from time to time. Chris Caluza of the Philippines has a primary coach in San Diego, but will solicit Frank's advice. I think what USFSA is doing is making official this practice of seeking advice from Frank When Carlo Fassi was alive, he actually wanted to do something similar. Other coaches were afraid to do that, however, because Carlo was known for "poaching."

 

[StitchMonkey]

It's not just parents that kill off pairs; it's mostly the American mentality. The mentality is very much "the individual must make it." Although Americans love team sports like "football", basketball, and baseball, amongst those team sports, they identify individual stars. These individual stars are always praised. It's one of the reasons why the US hasn't done well in the World Cup since its inception. A team like Germany plays like a team. In pairs, we rarely get the sense that they're skating as a team; we get two singles skaters who happen to lift. The current rules actually favor the american mentality (harder jumps in pairs, singles-like spins/footwork sequences), but very few pairs want to skate as one.

Sorry for taking this thread in another direction. Back to Frank Carroll-- I think I like his new role, and it isn't a conflict of interest, at all. Many of the successful skaters have taken from Frank before, at their coach's urging. Polina Edmunds works with Frank from time to time. Chris Caluza of the Philippines has a primary coach in San Diego, but will solicit Frank's advice. I think what USFSA is doing is making official this practice of seeking advice from Frank When Carlo Fassi was alive, he actually wanted to do something similar. Other coaches were afraid to do that, however, because Carlo was known for "poaching."

And with pairs, you have parents who know that their precious kid's individual success is dependent on some other kid not screwing up and that kids parent's not pulling a stunt. Your assessment of the mentality i agree with, and with pairs you just have more humans in the mix. It does not help that in the USA singles skating often seems to have the better long term career potential. At least that is who has made money in the past. Add to that the fact that it is so similar to individuals, it starts to feel like the runner up sport, which sucks. I don't know if anything but time can really make a couple really match, I wish there was more incentive for American pairs to stick it out. Or maybe at the younger level they need to be allowed/encouraged more than one partner. If the goal were to skate with two partners, with luck maybe one will last and click.

As for Frank. I am glad USFSA is doing something. I do think his international students may have an advantage being coached with him, but in reality I am sure there are many many other examples in the sports world. I am curious to see what happens with Gold this year. Frankly I am a bit worried Frank may be passing into the too old fashioned, past his prime category on this. I can't help but feel that Frank took one look at Gracie said "she is pretty, let's make her a dainty pageant queen that's what she is missing" and I am not sure it is working. I think Gracie might be better really rocking the all American girl jock image. I want to feel like she is not just skating to the random button for a playlist. I want to see her connect with the music. There is not only one way a skater should be. . . I want to see Frank help a skater grow in a different direction than the traditional ideals. . . then I would be happier with him in this position. I want someone who tries to turn each individual and distinct skater in to the best skater they can be using their unique qualities, not someone who tries to turn everyone into very similar ideas of what they should be.

 

[blue dog]

I can't help but feel that Frank took one look at Gracie said "she is pretty, let's make her a dainty pageant queen that's what she is missing" and I am not sure it is working. I think Gracie might be better really rocking the all American girl jock image. I want to feel like she is not just skating to the random button for a playlist. I want to see her connect with the music. There is not only one way a skater should be. . . I want to see Frank help a skater grow in a different direction than the traditional ideals. . . then I would be happier with him in this position. I want someone who tries to turn each individual and distinct skater in to the best skater they can be using their unique qualities, not someone who tries to turn everyone into very similar ideas of what they should be.

Funny you mention that-- when I first saw Gracie a few years ago, I didn't see a princess/pageant girl. I saw an athletic Elaine/Tonya/Irina type. I wish they had allowed her to grow in that route. I wish our sport allowed women to grow into whatever style they wanted, rather than pushing us into these gender stereotypes, and scoffing at those who buck the trend.

 

[SimplyAFan]

I figure Frank has the most experience coaching high-level skaters (except maybe John Nicks), so any advice he can give coaches will be helpful. The US can really benefit from having more skilled coaches. If it helps the US out of this slump, I'm all for it.

 

[StitchMonkey]

Funny you mention that-- when I first saw Gracie a few years ago, I didn't see a princess/pageant girl. I saw an athletic Elaine/Tonya/Irina type. I wish they had allowed her to grow in that route. I wish our sport allowed women to grow into whatever style they wanted, rather than pushing us into these gender stereotypes, and scoffing at those who buck the trend.

I don't think anyone saw Gracie as a princess, some may have noticed she was very pretty, but that does not always mean princess to me. We saw someone who would have been happy to play in the mud with us as kids but just happens to be a figure skater. She is more the athletic type, she just happens to be a very pretty athletic type, and that apparently confuses people. Not sure why they could not see her as a jock who cleans up really nice. . . i mean that is still plenty marketable. Sadly, I think Gracie's looks may be working against her, if she were less pretty, there may have been less of an obsession with turning her into a pretty little princess. I frankly would rather see Gracie tweet pics of her bruises than make up tips for instance. I want to see her attack the ice, not try to gracefully seduce it.

Frank does appear to be rather old guard so to speak. I fear he may try to shoehorn people into stereotypes that have worked in the past. Sticking with what used to work will only work so long. I like seeing variation, I like seeing skaters take what they have and make it work for them. Maybe we should hope that Frank starts this out, gets the role established. . . then passes the reigns to someone who is more of a generalist rather than a specialist in "what historically works"

 

[ice coverage]

... I lack optimism about American pairs due to my lack of faith in American parents. ....

It's not just parents that kill off pairs; it's mostly the American mentality. ...

American parents and "the American mentality" have not prevented ice dance partnerships from flourishing in the U.S.

I think one or more other thing(s) also must be at issue with U.S. pairs.

here is the latest article regarding this:

http://skatingmagazineblog.com/2014...-fellow-coaches-in-mentor-role/#comment-11544

Odd, they mention that he coaches Kanako Murakami?

They must have meant Daisuke Murakami instead

Update: the article now has been corrected -- now says, "Daisuke Murakami."