- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
musesk8r, I take it it's a case of "You Like Big Butts and You Cannot Lie" ? 
Free Dance
- Thread starter dorispulaski
- Start date
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2006
Agreed! The ice dance event was the best event of the week! What a joy to see such amazing talent!!
And doris, no, I certainly cannot lie about that; it's VERY true!
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2009
Nothing wrong with big butts but as a feature of your line, a choreographic add on might be OTT, especially if yours can speak for itself. 
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2003
I'm a huge fan of Vanessa Crone but I have to admit that I loved, loved, loved Gilles & Poirier's programs and there is definitely more chemistry between these two than we saw between Paul & Vanessa. I'm really looking forward to watching them progress.
I'm also happy that Ralph & Hill are going to Worlds. I admit to not being a fan of Paul & Islam but thank heavens they've stopped packaging Islam to look like Scott Moir. I hope they do well at 4CC.
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2010
Phew! What a weekend! Really enjoyed all the events this weekend, and SO happy to see Chan skate live again. There are no words to describe just how good his skating skills really are. When you add the quads and all the great tricks, just wow... But I digress.
I actually watched ALL the Junior and Senior dancers.
The Junior event didn't end quite the way I expected based on Challenge, but was so happy to see Poulin/Servant come home with the title. They put in 2 fantastic programs, and completely deserved it. I'm also very happy that the little teams from BC have some more time at Junior to grow and develop before having to move up to Senior. Let's let them grow physically, technically, artistically and emotionally before sending them up to the pressure cooker of Senior. There was quite a group of great skaters in the top at Junior. Some are unfortunately going to outgrow each other, and some are going to shine.
For Senior, I really, really, really despised the new trial format. Having experienced it, it sucks for the skaters and the fans. I have not found a single person who actually liked it. Having seen the full men's event, we were really robbed of the excitment of watching the growth through the 3 flights. That's right folks. Only 3 flights per event. Was Saturday night exciting? Sure. But we didn't get to really enjoy each of the events, even on Saturday night. They were over so quickly, and then we had to change gears right away for the next event. The men's event on the other hand, was amazing. And that doesn't begin to touch the other issues with creating 2 different competitions out of 1 event, and how this is not in the best interest of the integrity of the sport. While Skate Canada and CTV/TSN may treat them like second class citizens in the sport, the fans were so nice to all the ice dancers. It made me smile to see the surprise and pleasure on the faces of the lower ranked teams when they were asked for autographs by fans of all ages, even the next day.
Here are my impressions of the Senior dance event:
Smyl-Joly/Jesionek: They are a brand new team who have not had a full season to train, and appeared to have some injuries. Under those circumstances, I take my hat off to them for just showing up. They obviously will do much better next year.
Letourneau/Boczar: Huge amount of respect for anyone who figures out how to balance med school and skating. Granted, they have not improved over the season quite the same way as the other teams, but to have such dedication to the sport while pursuing challenging studies outside of skating at the same time, well, I'm a fan. Not sure how much longer we will see them. I have to think internships are going to get in the way eventually.
Lioudvinevitch/Mulder: Gorgeous lines and edges and flow. Just gorgeous skating skills. Very elegant. And beautiful packaging and costumes! They are very young, and with a ton of potential. I had to scratch my head about a time violation. Don't think they've had that deduction this season before for the same program. That point would have put them up into the next flight for the FD, and higher finish. I do think they were better than a few teams that finished ahead of them. There certainly should have been more difference in the PCS scores just on the skating skills, more complex and well executed choreography, interpretation, and so on. They are a little slower than some of the others, and it seems that judges in this competition like to put speed above all the other things that make this ice dance. They were a little too careful in the SD. Looking forward to seeing them develop. I would have had these 2 in 9th position.
Ritchie-Hervieux/Masse: They have come a long way this season. I remember them from last year, and there has been significant improvement in all areas of their skating. They put in solid performances, and hopefully they will continue to develop. They need to work on more complicated programs, and better skating skills and more range of expression/emotion throughout their bodies. I wouldn't put them in the same league as the previous team.
Rene de Cotret Laporte/Laliberte: The longest name in the competition, and the youngest young man in the competition. I think these 2 were the example of taking a team with some speed and mistaking that for good skating. While they may have been able to put some levels together, I don't think the quality of the skating was as good as those teams that finished between 11 and 13. They are a developing team, and need time to learn some basic skating skills - lines, edges, extensions, flow. In my mind, it was a good entertaining show, but not really ice dance. They really struggled with execution, and were over marked. That being said he is very young, and I have to think with age and physical development and maybe some dance lessons, they could definitely come along. In my scorecard, they should have finished 12th.
Dumas/Mackay Perry: This is one of the most improved teams over the season. They are a brand new team, and really had a rough start. They looked much more smooth this weekend, and their programs have really developed. They look like a really good match physically - height and body lines and body type. Loved her FD dress. I think they have some good potential. I would have put them in 10th.
Van As/Shindle: Such an unfortunate fall in the SD, but it really turned out ok in the end. They definitely deserved their 8th place finish. They are looking stonger than last year, had some good speed AND some nice choreography and skating skill. I have to admit I am SO tired of Beattles programs and generally show-type programs. I'd like to see them sink their teeth into something a little more classical, or at least with more emotion and depth. I think they can do it.
Harvey/Gagnon: What can I say? They were top 5 last year, and now in 7th. They had some errors for sure. But there is a difference in the speed and quality of what they do. I'm a little sad for them because they are such great kids, and have been such a good team for so long. I do think they are not the right size for each other, as can happen when teams start young, and then grow up and mature into beautiful adults. What worked as kids doesn't always work as adults. She is gorgeous. He is an incredible showman. They have a great connection with each other and the audience. I also think they are victims a bit of the ridiculous over-scoring domestically early in the season. When they went to international events, including Skate Canada, they couldn't live up to the hype. And because they didn't achieve internationally, they were dumped at this nationals in favour of Orford/Williams. Lessons to be learned here, perhaps?
Orford/Williams: It's quite a debut for them. I don't believe they will see the same score internationally this year. I also don't think they will finish top 5 at junior worlds with these programs. They have speed for sure. They have made some improvements on their lines. They have slowed down a little. They have some great elements, particularly like their really fast rotational lift. The tricks are good. The programs still seem frantic and a little wild. They need more skating skills, unison, finishing their lines, extensions, etc. And PLEASE find another highlight besides the ridiculous number of twizzling she does. The reality? She's really very good. Their programs are designed to disguise the fact that he isn't. Eventually, they will have to slow down enough to put some emotion and connection into their skating, and add some more mature choreography, especially if they want to crack a top 5 eventually. Time will tell whether or not they can make that transition. I'm not optimistic based on what I've seen so far.
Islam/Paul: SO happy that they looked so much stronger and more confident than I've seen them all season. Their programs, both of them, were very much improved. Very happy they will go to 4CC. They have beautiful, flow, edges, and quality skating. Give them a few years, and I think they will grow into champions domestically and internationally if they work really hard, and continue to grow and improve and can stay healthy. They have chemistry, connection, line, unison, quiet skating, and beautiful, real ice dance qualities. I also felt less like they were trying to be Virtue/Moir clones this year. They are working on their own identity. It's a tough year for them, but they will have an international assignment yet, and they are perhaps in good position for growth into next season.
Ralph/Hill: I am not a fan of the SD, but I did like their FD. It was well packaged, interesting, some novel choreography, and some good skating skills. Maybe not as complex as the top teams, but I feel they and Islam/Paul were robbed of 3rd and 4th place finishes. Not sure which order to put these 2 teams in. I think Ralph/Hill have had he stronger season, and have improved a lot. They still need to fix the posture issues, and maybe work more on some complexity instead of just being clever. I hope both these teams will not be too disheartened by the drama with 3rd place.
Gilles/Poirier: They are a fun team who put together 2 fun programs. It was a great, entertaining show. It was fast. It was clever. But it was NOT ice dance, and frankly very insulting for all the rest of the competitors. The judges and tech specialists should be called to task on that. There is no way that this comes anywhere close to Weaver/Poje or Virtue/Moir, and not better than Crone/Poirier or Islam/Paul, or even Ralph/Hill. I'd have put them 5th. I can't imagine what they all must be feeling when they see this blatent, over the top nonsense. Insulting is the best word to describe it, really. And there is no benefit to Gilles/Poirier. They have a lot of promise. They clearly are enjoying skating together. They have a ton of energy together (I wouldn't call that chemistry or connection, just great energy). But they have a LOT of work to do: unison, she needs to catch up to him, lines, deeper edges, transitions, range of emotions and expression, musicality. He really does shine, but that is not the right thing in an ice dance TEAM. You need balance. Internationally, I don't believe they would finish in the top 10 at this point. Therefore, 100 points at this time is simply ridiculous, and those involved in the politicking for this team should be ashamed of themselves. The skaters themselves know better, or at least should. No one is fooled. And if they show up and "disappoint", what is actually accomplished? Look what happened to Harvey/Gagnon as a lesson. Let's give this team the time to grow and improve and gel together, and I really hope their coaches work on all of this instead of putting together more programs that are only there to disguise and short-cut to the top. And Paul please change that SD shirt. That was just silly and tacky.
Weaver/Poje: SO love this team. They have improved so much this year, and they have 2 great vehicles. They really had the SD of the competition, and were scored accordingly. After being "robbed" so many years in a row, they just have continued to work and improve and grow, and it is all finally coming together for them. They have confidence now, and that has allowed them to perform much better. Their FD is a masterpiece. I wish them all the best at 4CC and Worlds. I'd love to see them as world bronze medalists this year. They have a little more work to do on line and finishing their lines (especially her). But they have the whole package: edges, quality skating, chemistry, real dancing. The difference between these 2 and Gilles/Poirier was really evident in the gala. G/P performed their SD. W/P performed their SD from last year (I thought Etta James was very appropo - RIP, Etta). The quality, lightness and just real dancing from W/P was in a different league.
Virtue/Moir: Anytime one gets to see these 2 live, it's a treat. The SD was not the best for them, but their FD was sublime. The musicality, edges, beautiful lines, unison, chemistry, connection, balance between the teams, and overall brilliance puts them in a league of their own. I agree with Tracy Wilson that they are not being recognized appropriately for the brilliance of their FD this year. It's really and truly a masterpiece. There are new details to catch and enjoy each time I see it. Live, it's s'wonderful. Their gala program was so beautiful. Makes you smile and cry with the beauty of it. Simply divine.
I actually watched ALL the Junior and Senior dancers.
The Junior event didn't end quite the way I expected based on Challenge, but was so happy to see Poulin/Servant come home with the title. They put in 2 fantastic programs, and completely deserved it. I'm also very happy that the little teams from BC have some more time at Junior to grow and develop before having to move up to Senior. Let's let them grow physically, technically, artistically and emotionally before sending them up to the pressure cooker of Senior. There was quite a group of great skaters in the top at Junior. Some are unfortunately going to outgrow each other, and some are going to shine.
For Senior, I really, really, really despised the new trial format. Having experienced it, it sucks for the skaters and the fans. I have not found a single person who actually liked it. Having seen the full men's event, we were really robbed of the excitment of watching the growth through the 3 flights. That's right folks. Only 3 flights per event. Was Saturday night exciting? Sure. But we didn't get to really enjoy each of the events, even on Saturday night. They were over so quickly, and then we had to change gears right away for the next event. The men's event on the other hand, was amazing. And that doesn't begin to touch the other issues with creating 2 different competitions out of 1 event, and how this is not in the best interest of the integrity of the sport. While Skate Canada and CTV/TSN may treat them like second class citizens in the sport, the fans were so nice to all the ice dancers. It made me smile to see the surprise and pleasure on the faces of the lower ranked teams when they were asked for autographs by fans of all ages, even the next day.
Here are my impressions of the Senior dance event:
Smyl-Joly/Jesionek: They are a brand new team who have not had a full season to train, and appeared to have some injuries. Under those circumstances, I take my hat off to them for just showing up. They obviously will do much better next year.
Letourneau/Boczar: Huge amount of respect for anyone who figures out how to balance med school and skating. Granted, they have not improved over the season quite the same way as the other teams, but to have such dedication to the sport while pursuing challenging studies outside of skating at the same time, well, I'm a fan. Not sure how much longer we will see them. I have to think internships are going to get in the way eventually.
Lioudvinevitch/Mulder: Gorgeous lines and edges and flow. Just gorgeous skating skills. Very elegant. And beautiful packaging and costumes! They are very young, and with a ton of potential. I had to scratch my head about a time violation. Don't think they've had that deduction this season before for the same program. That point would have put them up into the next flight for the FD, and higher finish. I do think they were better than a few teams that finished ahead of them. There certainly should have been more difference in the PCS scores just on the skating skills, more complex and well executed choreography, interpretation, and so on. They are a little slower than some of the others, and it seems that judges in this competition like to put speed above all the other things that make this ice dance. They were a little too careful in the SD. Looking forward to seeing them develop. I would have had these 2 in 9th position.
Ritchie-Hervieux/Masse: They have come a long way this season. I remember them from last year, and there has been significant improvement in all areas of their skating. They put in solid performances, and hopefully they will continue to develop. They need to work on more complicated programs, and better skating skills and more range of expression/emotion throughout their bodies. I wouldn't put them in the same league as the previous team.
Rene de Cotret Laporte/Laliberte: The longest name in the competition, and the youngest young man in the competition. I think these 2 were the example of taking a team with some speed and mistaking that for good skating. While they may have been able to put some levels together, I don't think the quality of the skating was as good as those teams that finished between 11 and 13. They are a developing team, and need time to learn some basic skating skills - lines, edges, extensions, flow. In my mind, it was a good entertaining show, but not really ice dance. They really struggled with execution, and were over marked. That being said he is very young, and I have to think with age and physical development and maybe some dance lessons, they could definitely come along. In my scorecard, they should have finished 12th.
Dumas/Mackay Perry: This is one of the most improved teams over the season. They are a brand new team, and really had a rough start. They looked much more smooth this weekend, and their programs have really developed. They look like a really good match physically - height and body lines and body type. Loved her FD dress. I think they have some good potential. I would have put them in 10th.
Van As/Shindle: Such an unfortunate fall in the SD, but it really turned out ok in the end. They definitely deserved their 8th place finish. They are looking stonger than last year, had some good speed AND some nice choreography and skating skill. I have to admit I am SO tired of Beattles programs and generally show-type programs. I'd like to see them sink their teeth into something a little more classical, or at least with more emotion and depth. I think they can do it.
Harvey/Gagnon: What can I say? They were top 5 last year, and now in 7th. They had some errors for sure. But there is a difference in the speed and quality of what they do. I'm a little sad for them because they are such great kids, and have been such a good team for so long. I do think they are not the right size for each other, as can happen when teams start young, and then grow up and mature into beautiful adults. What worked as kids doesn't always work as adults. She is gorgeous. He is an incredible showman. They have a great connection with each other and the audience. I also think they are victims a bit of the ridiculous over-scoring domestically early in the season. When they went to international events, including Skate Canada, they couldn't live up to the hype. And because they didn't achieve internationally, they were dumped at this nationals in favour of Orford/Williams. Lessons to be learned here, perhaps?
Orford/Williams: It's quite a debut for them. I don't believe they will see the same score internationally this year. I also don't think they will finish top 5 at junior worlds with these programs. They have speed for sure. They have made some improvements on their lines. They have slowed down a little. They have some great elements, particularly like their really fast rotational lift. The tricks are good. The programs still seem frantic and a little wild. They need more skating skills, unison, finishing their lines, extensions, etc. And PLEASE find another highlight besides the ridiculous number of twizzling she does. The reality? She's really very good. Their programs are designed to disguise the fact that he isn't. Eventually, they will have to slow down enough to put some emotion and connection into their skating, and add some more mature choreography, especially if they want to crack a top 5 eventually. Time will tell whether or not they can make that transition. I'm not optimistic based on what I've seen so far.
Islam/Paul: SO happy that they looked so much stronger and more confident than I've seen them all season. Their programs, both of them, were very much improved. Very happy they will go to 4CC. They have beautiful, flow, edges, and quality skating. Give them a few years, and I think they will grow into champions domestically and internationally if they work really hard, and continue to grow and improve and can stay healthy. They have chemistry, connection, line, unison, quiet skating, and beautiful, real ice dance qualities. I also felt less like they were trying to be Virtue/Moir clones this year. They are working on their own identity. It's a tough year for them, but they will have an international assignment yet, and they are perhaps in good position for growth into next season.
Ralph/Hill: I am not a fan of the SD, but I did like their FD. It was well packaged, interesting, some novel choreography, and some good skating skills. Maybe not as complex as the top teams, but I feel they and Islam/Paul were robbed of 3rd and 4th place finishes. Not sure which order to put these 2 teams in. I think Ralph/Hill have had he stronger season, and have improved a lot. They still need to fix the posture issues, and maybe work more on some complexity instead of just being clever. I hope both these teams will not be too disheartened by the drama with 3rd place.
Gilles/Poirier: They are a fun team who put together 2 fun programs. It was a great, entertaining show. It was fast. It was clever. But it was NOT ice dance, and frankly very insulting for all the rest of the competitors. The judges and tech specialists should be called to task on that. There is no way that this comes anywhere close to Weaver/Poje or Virtue/Moir, and not better than Crone/Poirier or Islam/Paul, or even Ralph/Hill. I'd have put them 5th. I can't imagine what they all must be feeling when they see this blatent, over the top nonsense. Insulting is the best word to describe it, really. And there is no benefit to Gilles/Poirier. They have a lot of promise. They clearly are enjoying skating together. They have a ton of energy together (I wouldn't call that chemistry or connection, just great energy). But they have a LOT of work to do: unison, she needs to catch up to him, lines, deeper edges, transitions, range of emotions and expression, musicality. He really does shine, but that is not the right thing in an ice dance TEAM. You need balance. Internationally, I don't believe they would finish in the top 10 at this point. Therefore, 100 points at this time is simply ridiculous, and those involved in the politicking for this team should be ashamed of themselves. The skaters themselves know better, or at least should. No one is fooled. And if they show up and "disappoint", what is actually accomplished? Look what happened to Harvey/Gagnon as a lesson. Let's give this team the time to grow and improve and gel together, and I really hope their coaches work on all of this instead of putting together more programs that are only there to disguise and short-cut to the top. And Paul please change that SD shirt. That was just silly and tacky.
Weaver/Poje: SO love this team. They have improved so much this year, and they have 2 great vehicles. They really had the SD of the competition, and were scored accordingly. After being "robbed" so many years in a row, they just have continued to work and improve and grow, and it is all finally coming together for them. They have confidence now, and that has allowed them to perform much better. Their FD is a masterpiece. I wish them all the best at 4CC and Worlds. I'd love to see them as world bronze medalists this year. They have a little more work to do on line and finishing their lines (especially her). But they have the whole package: edges, quality skating, chemistry, real dancing. The difference between these 2 and Gilles/Poirier was really evident in the gala. G/P performed their SD. W/P performed their SD from last year (I thought Etta James was very appropo - RIP, Etta). The quality, lightness and just real dancing from W/P was in a different league.
Virtue/Moir: Anytime one gets to see these 2 live, it's a treat. The SD was not the best for them, but their FD was sublime. The musicality, edges, beautiful lines, unison, chemistry, connection, balance between the teams, and overall brilliance puts them in a league of their own. I agree with Tracy Wilson that they are not being recognized appropriately for the brilliance of their FD this year. It's really and truly a masterpiece. There are new details to catch and enjoy each time I see it. Live, it's s'wonderful. Their gala program was so beautiful. Makes you smile and cry with the beauty of it. Simply divine.
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
NorthernDancers, Thanks so much for the report!
I really liked R&H's tango this year. Yes, there are some gimmicks in it, but I thought they got a great tango feel going. I suspect they need to leave Scarboro to advance much more. And I wish they would not give Asher those high waisted looking outfits. They do not flatter him.
I really liked R&H's tango this year. Yes, there are some gimmicks in it, but I thought they got a great tango feel going. I suspect they need to leave Scarboro to advance much more. And I wish they would not give Asher those high waisted looking outfits. They do not flatter him.
Great summary of the dance event - ND! Doris - unfortunately, I don't think that R/H are going to change coaches. They would benefit from a change in choreographers next year and not Chris Dean (which I am sure will choreograph for Gilles/Poirier again next year)....will try to think this through...LOL...
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
I'm sorry to hear that. When R&H have stepped up their game so much this year, they deserved better than an SD to Harlem Nocturne in a rumba competition. And their coach should have restrained them from skating in the Ontario sectional against Gilles & Poirier, whether R&H wanted to do so or not. They had nothing whatever to gain from skating that competition.
And now, having beaten P&I pretty soundly at their one GP event, Skate America (just barely missing a medal, due a freak problem with a lift that caused a severe downgrade on its level), and beaten them again here at Canadians, I think they got the shaft not getting the 4CC's assignment. R&H had only one GP assignment (compared to P&I's two), and they need more international exposure before worlds. Their coaches have not politicked effectively for them, so it seems, in Canada. They could use coaches who would be more effective for them politically.
And ones that would work on polishing their posture and unison more effectively. They already have speed, interaction, and some connection with the audience.
Frankly, P&I's SD misses the mark rather spectacularly, and their rhumba is rather weak. Their FD drones on and on, being almost the only boring Elton John song I have ever noticed; almost all tinkly piano. There is supposed to be a change of level/tempo in the FD, and this program doesn't have it. They have nice extensions, but not at the V&M level. And Alexandra has a perennial Bambi on Ice in the headlights look during the programs. At the end of the FD, she looks like the dying Juliet at the end of what is supposed to be a love song where the guy "wants to see a smile" in the lyrics. I think they would be better served by getting new choreographers & adding some speed and difficulty, get next fall's FD under way at once, and enter some Senior B's over the summer rather than having what is likely to be another disappointing international competition in 2 weeks with these programs.
Here's their NHK SD, their best of 2 performances on the GP (they had to resign from the FD because of Paul's serious injury).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIZ15XRGJBw
They had no obvious tripups, but still only scored 49.36.
In contrast, R&H's SD (which is far from a choreographic masterpiece) had one outing at Skate America:
Again this is British Eurosport coverage. In contrast to their rather tough critique of P&I's NHK SD, they liked Kharis & Asher, who earned 52.68, in fourth in a competition where P&I finished eighth (last):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AsHqtM3W50
If it were my choice, I'd send Kharis & Asher to 4CC's.
And now, having beaten P&I pretty soundly at their one GP event, Skate America (just barely missing a medal, due a freak problem with a lift that caused a severe downgrade on its level), and beaten them again here at Canadians, I think they got the shaft not getting the 4CC's assignment. R&H had only one GP assignment (compared to P&I's two), and they need more international exposure before worlds. Their coaches have not politicked effectively for them, so it seems, in Canada. They could use coaches who would be more effective for them politically.
And ones that would work on polishing their posture and unison more effectively. They already have speed, interaction, and some connection with the audience.
Frankly, P&I's SD misses the mark rather spectacularly, and their rhumba is rather weak. Their FD drones on and on, being almost the only boring Elton John song I have ever noticed; almost all tinkly piano. There is supposed to be a change of level/tempo in the FD, and this program doesn't have it. They have nice extensions, but not at the V&M level. And Alexandra has a perennial Bambi on Ice in the headlights look during the programs. At the end of the FD, she looks like the dying Juliet at the end of what is supposed to be a love song where the guy "wants to see a smile" in the lyrics. I think they would be better served by getting new choreographers & adding some speed and difficulty, get next fall's FD under way at once, and enter some Senior B's over the summer rather than having what is likely to be another disappointing international competition in 2 weeks with these programs.
Here's their NHK SD, their best of 2 performances on the GP (they had to resign from the FD because of Paul's serious injury).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIZ15XRGJBw
They had no obvious tripups, but still only scored 49.36.
In contrast, R&H's SD (which is far from a choreographic masterpiece) had one outing at Skate America:
Again this is British Eurosport coverage. In contrast to their rather tough critique of P&I's NHK SD, they liked Kharis & Asher, who earned 52.68, in fourth in a competition where P&I finished eighth (last):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AsHqtM3W50
If it were my choice, I'd send Kharis & Asher to 4CC's.
Seems to be a lot of Gillis & Poirier bashing on this thread. I like G&P a lot, and I agree they were somewhat overmarked in terms of overall points, but I don't think there was anything wrong with them finishing 3rd. Except for a couple of minor errors, they skated 2 very good programs and Tracy Wilson, an Olympic medalist in dance, seemed to think their position was justified.
Paul in particular has amazing edges and extension. There's no reason for him to go into singles, so I don't know why anyone here would suggest that. He is a born ice dancer. He doesn't have the triple axels and quads to win in men's anyway. He is a dancer. He is probably the most artistic male ice dancer in the event, certainly more so than Andrew Poje.
Hopefully he and Piper will now work on their weaker areas so that they can be even more competitive next season.
Paul in particular has amazing edges and extension. There's no reason for him to go into singles, so I don't know why anyone here would suggest that. He is a born ice dancer. He doesn't have the triple axels and quads to win in men's anyway. He is a dancer. He is probably the most artistic male ice dancer in the event, certainly more so than Andrew Poje.
Hopefully he and Piper will now work on their weaker areas so that they can be even more competitive next season.
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- Joined
- Jan 15, 2010
I don't think people are saying that Paul isn't a talented dancer. Yes, there are some posture issues, but he has good dance skills. The issue is that the team of Gilles/Poirier were outrageously over-marked. As a team, they are missing unison, line, synchronized edges, and so on. They put on an entertaining show. But it wasn't ice dance. And yet, they were gifted huge marks - over 100 points for the FD - while teams with all of those missing things were not done any similar favours. Do you really think that they deserved to break 100 points the same weekend that Weaver/Poje broke 100 points? These 2 teams are not in the same ballpark right now. The gala clearly demonstrated this. Vanessa and Paul skated more than 10 years together and were national champions last year, and still did not break 100 points. But Gilles/Poirier deserved this? It's an insult to the other teams for the judges to hand out those ridiculous marks. I don't agree they deserved to be 3rd. I'd have put them 5th, after R/H and P/I. I'm sure when they take the time to work on all of those missing elements that make ice dance, they will deserve higher marks, and maybe even 3rd place or higher. But right now, it was completely undeserved, and now there is very little incentive for them to change anything. Why bother working on the basics and gelling as a team if the judges are just going to hand you ridiculous marks anyway? The problem is that when they go international next year, if they don't work on these things, they will find they will likely not be gifted in quite the same way. And this would be a horrible situation for them. A notable example: BC Summerskate gave Harvey/Gagnon huge marks at that competition. When they skated internationally, they did not score nearly as well. By Canadians, they were unceremoniously dumped behind the other BC team. This outrageous over-marking doesn't do a team any favours. It sets unrealistic expectations for performance, instead of allowing them the time to grow and develop for long-term and international success. Over-scoring also makes a joke of the system. No one is fooled.
It should be clear that this is not about the kids themselves. This is about the judges, Skate Canada, and whoever else may be involved in politicking....
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2006
Oh , Here,here ! ( and/or Hear, hear!)
Here we go again.:disapp:
Ryan O , for most of the people here, it's really not mindless bashing. Most people are agreed that G/P have considerable potential. As NorthernDancers points out, this big inflation does the team no good, internationally. I'd even say it could be worse than that , it might even set up some resistance among foreign judges and audiences...a kind of resentment , as if we're trying to put one over on them. Needless to mention, it's grossly unfair to the teams who should have been marked above them.
Paul unquestionably has very good edges and extension, but he's far from faultless.. stiff upper back , over arched lower back and sticks his seat out, not much real relating to his partner (the ability to make a face when directed doesn't count as relating to your partner ..nor , on it's own , does it count as artistry). He is capable of improving in these areas , but if we all just pretend he doesn't need to , that improvement will never happen..which would be a shame.
I'd be interested in knowing what your criteria are for what makes an artistic skater. I certainly don't know what causes you to compare Paul to Andrew Poje in that respect. ( That seems to come out of nowhere ) I don't think we've been making a point of comparing them one to one, have we ? Well, if we did.. Paul would fall far short in the artistic department..
Andrew is no slouch as far as edges and extension are concerned, and has strengths in the very areas where Paul is weak. His body is more fluid , his posture is good ,he relates well to his partner , both in his body line and eye contact ...as well as in his more natural expression of emotion.
But there's no need to go there..the true comparison should be as couple to couple in regard to their overall abilities ... and G/P are not (yet) at the level of at least the four other couples in the top five.
Here we go again.:disapp:
Ryan O , for most of the people here, it's really not mindless bashing. Most people are agreed that G/P have considerable potential. As NorthernDancers points out, this big inflation does the team no good, internationally. I'd even say it could be worse than that , it might even set up some resistance among foreign judges and audiences...a kind of resentment , as if we're trying to put one over on them. Needless to mention, it's grossly unfair to the teams who should have been marked above them.
Paul unquestionably has very good edges and extension, but he's far from faultless.. stiff upper back , over arched lower back and sticks his seat out, not much real relating to his partner (the ability to make a face when directed doesn't count as relating to your partner ..nor , on it's own , does it count as artistry). He is capable of improving in these areas , but if we all just pretend he doesn't need to , that improvement will never happen..which would be a shame.
I'd be interested in knowing what your criteria are for what makes an artistic skater. I certainly don't know what causes you to compare Paul to Andrew Poje in that respect. ( That seems to come out of nowhere ) I don't think we've been making a point of comparing them one to one, have we ? Well, if we did.. Paul would fall far short in the artistic department..
Andrew is no slouch as far as edges and extension are concerned, and has strengths in the very areas where Paul is weak. His body is more fluid , his posture is good ,he relates well to his partner , both in his body line and eye contact ...as well as in his more natural expression of emotion.
But there's no need to go there..the true comparison should be as couple to couple in regard to their overall abilities ... and G/P are not (yet) at the level of at least the four other couples in the top five.
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Call me confused today. I've been reading the posts about G&P's placing and their marks and the 100 point barrier really does stand out. With Vanessa, they couldn't get above mid 90s which I think was in their Skate Canada event last year which was outstanding (I was there). So those of you who know these things - what's going on? Are the Canadian judges that easily wooed by a team's supporters? If that's the case, were people working to oust Crone from the partnership? I'm just really trying to understand what's going on - particularly in light of the seeming de-valuing of Virtue & Moir's skills. Maybe my questions are unanswerable.
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
The first thing is, the judges at Canadian Nationals did not devalue V&M's skills, seemingly or not.
The FD was the last event scored.
The maximum score each judge can give for PCS is 10. The next lowest score is 9.75. Obviously no devaluing here:
Interpretation 9.96/10.00
Choreography/Composition 9.88/10.00
Performance/Execution 9.88/10.00
Transitions/Linking Footwork 9.71/10.00
Skating Skills 9.79/10.00
The maximum Grade of Execution (GOE) is 3. The next lowest value a judge can give is 2. Here's how the judges graded all of V&M's elements in the Free Dance at Canadian Nationals:
Diagonal step - All 3's that counted
Curved lift mix of 2's and 3's
Twizzles all 3's
Spin All 2's, one 3 counted
Circular step one 2, the rest 3's counted
Rotational Lift All 3's
Combination Lift All 3's
The only skill that the majority of judges thought was less than perfect was their spin. And they thought the spin was near perfect.
The reason that V&M did not score significantly higher in the FD than they did at the GPF was that they had 3 level 3's at Canadian Nationals, and all level 4's at the GPF.
Two of the Level 3's were for the step sequences. It takes only one imperfect edge by just one of the 2 skaters to drop the level of a step sequence to a 3 instead of a 4.
The other Level 3 was for a rotational lift.
Now here's the rules that affect whether or not you get level 4 for a lift:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eW6Mo_YC_tw#t=3m45s
Since the total number of rotations by Tessa and Scott meets requirements, and since the entry to the lift is certainly difficult, my guess is that the tech panel counted that little hesitation by Scott after about his first rotation as a stop and restart of reotation, requiring a drop of one Level.
They also got a -1 for a lift that went too long.
Certainly the tech panel was a tough one, but none of that is evidence that Tessa & Scott's skills were undervalued at Canadian Nationals in the FD.
The FD was the last event scored.
The maximum score each judge can give for PCS is 10. The next lowest score is 9.75. Obviously no devaluing here:
Interpretation 9.96/10.00
Choreography/Composition 9.88/10.00
Performance/Execution 9.88/10.00
Transitions/Linking Footwork 9.71/10.00
Skating Skills 9.79/10.00
The maximum Grade of Execution (GOE) is 3. The next lowest value a judge can give is 2. Here's how the judges graded all of V&M's elements in the Free Dance at Canadian Nationals:
Diagonal step - All 3's that counted
Curved lift mix of 2's and 3's
Twizzles all 3's
Spin All 2's, one 3 counted
Circular step one 2, the rest 3's counted
Rotational Lift All 3's
Combination Lift All 3's
The only skill that the majority of judges thought was less than perfect was their spin. And they thought the spin was near perfect.
The reason that V&M did not score significantly higher in the FD than they did at the GPF was that they had 3 level 3's at Canadian Nationals, and all level 4's at the GPF.
Two of the Level 3's were for the step sequences. It takes only one imperfect edge by just one of the 2 skaters to drop the level of a step sequence to a 3 instead of a 4.
The other Level 3 was for a rotational lift.
Now here's the rules that affect whether or not you get level 4 for a lift:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eW6Mo_YC_tw#t=3m45s
Since the total number of rotations by Tessa and Scott meets requirements, and since the entry to the lift is certainly difficult, my guess is that the tech panel counted that little hesitation by Scott after about his first rotation as a stop and restart of reotation, requiring a drop of one Level.
They also got a -1 for a lift that went too long.
Certainly the tech panel was a tough one, but none of that is evidence that Tessa & Scott's skills were undervalued at Canadian Nationals in the FD.
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- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
I'm sorry, I thought you meant at Canadian Nationals, since this is the Canadian Nationals thread, and the rest of your post was about Gilles and Poirier, who only skated at Canadian Nationals, and at the qualifying competitions for Canadian Nationals.
A case can certainly be made that G&P were significantly overscored with respect to W&P, R&H and P&I, and yes, vs. Crone & Poirier last year. However vs. V&M the judges scored V&M pretty much as high as they could possibly be scored. They just ran up against the top of the scoring system.
At Skate Canada, Tessa & Scott won by 22 points over Kaithlyn and Andrew, who have a wonderful FD and a very good SD>
At Trophee Bompard, Tessa & Scot won by 12.50 points over Pechalat & Bourzat, this year's and last year's European Champions.
At the GPF, they lost to Davis & White, but they lost due to having the worst SD performance I have ever seen them give, including Scott falling disruptively, and the both of them being affected negatively through the rest of the performance. And at that, they were still second in the SD.
At Canadian Nationals, Tessa put her hand down during the twizzles, causing them to get level 2 in the twizzles. Again the whole program suffered, and they got level 3 on the lift, the circular step,and one of the rhumba sequences. And they still beat Weaver and Poje, if only by a very little.
They had significantly rechoreographed their SD, and this was their first performance of the new version.
So despite Tracey Wilson going on about it, I see no sign that V&M are not being valued.
What I see is that they are not getting top tech levels in the first part of the season, something that I have seen from them before. That is why they have never won a GPF-they simply peak later, for 4CC's and Worlds (and Olympics of course).
You can argue about G&P's overscoring, or about whether someone ought to expand the PCS up to 12 or something, though.
A case can certainly be made that G&P were significantly overscored with respect to W&P, R&H and P&I, and yes, vs. Crone & Poirier last year. However vs. V&M the judges scored V&M pretty much as high as they could possibly be scored. They just ran up against the top of the scoring system.
At Skate Canada, Tessa & Scott won by 22 points over Kaithlyn and Andrew, who have a wonderful FD and a very good SD>
At Trophee Bompard, Tessa & Scot won by 12.50 points over Pechalat & Bourzat, this year's and last year's European Champions.
At the GPF, they lost to Davis & White, but they lost due to having the worst SD performance I have ever seen them give, including Scott falling disruptively, and the both of them being affected negatively through the rest of the performance. And at that, they were still second in the SD.
At Canadian Nationals, Tessa put her hand down during the twizzles, causing them to get level 2 in the twizzles. Again the whole program suffered, and they got level 3 on the lift, the circular step,and one of the rhumba sequences. And they still beat Weaver and Poje, if only by a very little.
They had significantly rechoreographed their SD, and this was their first performance of the new version.
So despite Tracey Wilson going on about it, I see no sign that V&M are not being valued.
What I see is that they are not getting top tech levels in the first part of the season, something that I have seen from them before. That is why they have never won a GPF-they simply peak later, for 4CC's and Worlds (and Olympics of course).
You can argue about G&P's overscoring, or about whether someone ought to expand the PCS up to 12 or something, though.
1. I agree G&P shouldn't be overscored and that it could hurt them down the road if they get unrealistic marks domestically that can't be duplicated overseas. However, I don't think there was any outrageous overscoring, and G&P were qualified to be on the podium according to Tracy Wilson, an expert in Ice Dance. She did mention that they have some areas where they need to work such as in the footwork sequence, and with Piper's extension.
There actually was some bashing above of Paul - most of it was constructive criticism yes, but some of it even included comments that he was deliberately sticking his *** out to get high marks from the judges just for having a nice posterior, which is ridiculous.
2. Paul is much shorter than Andrew so I agree that in terms of stature and presence, Andrew has an advantage in that area, but I don't think Andrew is more artistic. I think Paul is more artistic and creative. There were some comparisons between them earlier so I thought I would add my own. Paul is a very talented guy and can do a lot of zany things that I can't picture Andrew doing (you can see Paul's 'Debi Thomas tribute' video on YouTube. Incidentally, I suppose one of the reasons I have some residual criticism towards Andrew is because I disliked his "I'm heterosexual and masculine" appearance in the "Get Tough" Skate Canada campaign a few years ago.
3. At this event, G&P appeared to make the most impact with the audience. They really came alive with a connection and a joy that created a lot of enthusiasm, and I think a lot of people are trying to give them a good encouragement as they start off together. They don't have any more competitions now until next season though, so they will be starting early on their programs and choreography for next season after they take a rest for a few weeks. Hopefully in the many months left before next season they will work on their weaker areas as you suggested so that they can be ready to get an objective evaluation before the judges on the GP next season.
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2006
Ryan O... You know , there's simply no use using Tracy's opinion as gospel , or to bolster your position , since her on-air job is not really to give her unvarnished opinion. And if she did ever say something like ... I thought this one should have won ,or that one should have been much lower than this other one ... especially Nationally, she would probably lose her job ( witness Toller Cranston ).Usually , she identifies a skater's strengths and effuses over them for a bit ,might comment on any real mistakes, like a mis-step or botched twizzle, and makes very gentle suggestions about where they need to improve. She almost never says anything that might seem judgmental against the skater or coaches , or reflect poorly on the judges , ( since the advent of CoP, which she sees as a great improvement ) .. and I repeat , she certainly wouldn't do it Nationally. A huge brou-ha-ha would ensue. So unless you know her personally, you're never going to hear her full honest opinion.
OK , there are exceptions, and I'm getting to that.
With G/P she warned the audience to expect big marks when they came out in the SD because they skated early. But even she seemed surprised at the numbers. When it came to the FD, she set the scene for a potential drop by implying their SD marks might have been a bit high, because they were so much better than the other couples in the first group.She didn't say the judges were mistaken , but that G/P took them by surprise. We have to put it together for ourselves. If she thought the marks had truly been given without reference to the other couples ( which should be the case ) and were not at all out of line, she would never have mentioned it. Once G/P had placed third, would she say they didn't deserve it, even if she thought it ? NO.That could be seen as casting doubt on our whole system. So she went about as far as I've ever seen her go , by pointing out what G/P need to work on, after the marks had been given and in spite of their finish.
I suggest that this whole fiasco might have even played into her V/M remarks...I think it's very possible that Tracy might not have felt the "Undervaluing" so strongly, if the "Overvaluing" of G/P was not sitting there on the scoreboard, inviting comparison, which can only be to the detriment of V/M ( and W/P and R/H and P/I ).To the casual observer , her remarks might only serve to reassure them that no, V/M are really much better than some of these other teams. To the rest of us, they seemed a bit odd,at best ..whiny at worst. ...I'd further suggest that the third place on this podium could be more damaging to V/M's reputation than Scott's fall at GPF , or Tessa's uncharacteristic mistake here, in the twizzles.
I adore V/M but they didn't have much time to become comfortable with the changes to their programs before Canadians, and they really have normally peaked later in the season , as doris points out. There are other commentators who also feel V/M's attention to detail , subtlety, ability to weave elements together seamlessly , etc. are currently matchless ( listen to British Eurosport sometime )..but the system only allows so many points for perfection , and those aren't the only elements of perfection..and they weren't perfect . Close , but no cigar.
I'd really like to address Ryan's other points but I'm too tired , tonight. I'll have to do it tomorrow.
OK , there are exceptions, and I'm getting to that.
With G/P she warned the audience to expect big marks when they came out in the SD because they skated early. But even she seemed surprised at the numbers. When it came to the FD, she set the scene for a potential drop by implying their SD marks might have been a bit high, because they were so much better than the other couples in the first group.She didn't say the judges were mistaken , but that G/P took them by surprise. We have to put it together for ourselves. If she thought the marks had truly been given without reference to the other couples ( which should be the case ) and were not at all out of line, she would never have mentioned it. Once G/P had placed third, would she say they didn't deserve it, even if she thought it ? NO.That could be seen as casting doubt on our whole system. So she went about as far as I've ever seen her go , by pointing out what G/P need to work on, after the marks had been given and in spite of their finish.
I suggest that this whole fiasco might have even played into her V/M remarks...I think it's very possible that Tracy might not have felt the "Undervaluing" so strongly, if the "Overvaluing" of G/P was not sitting there on the scoreboard, inviting comparison, which can only be to the detriment of V/M ( and W/P and R/H and P/I ).To the casual observer , her remarks might only serve to reassure them that no, V/M are really much better than some of these other teams. To the rest of us, they seemed a bit odd,at best ..whiny at worst. ...I'd further suggest that the third place on this podium could be more damaging to V/M's reputation than Scott's fall at GPF , or Tessa's uncharacteristic mistake here, in the twizzles.
I adore V/M but they didn't have much time to become comfortable with the changes to their programs before Canadians, and they really have normally peaked later in the season , as doris points out. There are other commentators who also feel V/M's attention to detail , subtlety, ability to weave elements together seamlessly , etc. are currently matchless ( listen to British Eurosport sometime )..but the system only allows so many points for perfection , and those aren't the only elements of perfection..and they weren't perfect . Close , but no cigar.
I'd really like to address Ryan's other points but I'm too tired , tonight. I'll have to do it tomorrow.
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- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
I think the point should also be made that V&M have to schedule their training very carefully to avoid recurrence of Tessa's shin problems. They can't be like the Shibs and pull the skating version of all-nighters running for a month to be totally prepared with changes in both programs between GPF and Nationals. They have to be methodical, careful, and not overdo. Consequently, they weren't 100% ready to skate that revised SD, just 90% ready.
I firmly expect them to be 100% ready by Worlds.
One thing does need to be mentioned: Tessa & Scott may have unique strengths, but so do other teams have unique strengths. Any objective scoring system has to be set up to take into account every team's strengths and value them appropriately. Charlie and Meryl, for example, have their own unique strengths.
When the tech group meets each year and considers changes to dance COP, they try to adjust the system to properly value everything. Right now Tessa & Scott's and Meryl & Charlies unique strengths are seen to offset each other, leaving them both valued at very nearly perfect. If Skate Canada wants the strengths of Tessa & Scott more highly valued than Meryl & Charlies's strengths, rules changes will be needed, and will be voted on. Of course, USFS may want Meryl & Charlie's strengths more highly valued-Russia will want changes that benefit their teams' unique strengths, and so on.
Each year, it's a new set of rules, and the changes run to 20 to 40 pages every year.
I firmly expect them to be 100% ready by Worlds.
One thing does need to be mentioned: Tessa & Scott may have unique strengths, but so do other teams have unique strengths. Any objective scoring system has to be set up to take into account every team's strengths and value them appropriately. Charlie and Meryl, for example, have their own unique strengths.
When the tech group meets each year and considers changes to dance COP, they try to adjust the system to properly value everything. Right now Tessa & Scott's and Meryl & Charlies unique strengths are seen to offset each other, leaving them both valued at very nearly perfect. If Skate Canada wants the strengths of Tessa & Scott more highly valued than Meryl & Charlies's strengths, rules changes will be needed, and will be voted on. Of course, USFS may want Meryl & Charlie's strengths more highly valued-Russia will want changes that benefit their teams' unique strengths, and so on.
Each year, it's a new set of rules, and the changes run to 20 to 40 pages every year.
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2006
Yes ...and lest it be thought that I was trying to turn this into yet another V/M vs. D/W discussion , I did say that V/M's strengths weren't the only elements of perfection.We had a very interesting thread here a while ago , regarding PCS, and how the score is awarded and whether it could be quantified more perfectly.. I don't know what the answer / solution / improvement would be ,or to what degree there will always be something unquantifiable / subjective about it.. but I think those questions can come into play for many couples , and for me , not in a satisfactory way. ( I'm thinking of European's , e.g.. )
doris mentioned elsewhere ( I think ) the fact that for some reason, variety of holds and how much time is spent in holds ( and the consequent difficulty ) is not being particularly highly rewarded right now , though it has been in other years ... I'll be interested to see if this changes a bit , since quite a number of very fine skaters ( not just in Canada) perhaps could have expected more recognition if this were not so.
Ryan O.. Yes , you will find the odd unseemly comment here :disapp: , but as far as I can see, the overall tone of the discussion hasn't amounted to bashing . I generally pay little attention to most comments on Paul's posterior, wherever I find them...the ones that rave about it as well as those intended as a personal insult
... Both Paul and Asher, at the same school for many years, have over developed gluteus maximus muscles , as compared to other male skaters ... I'm speaking as a former ( floor ) dance teacher ... Both also have too much arch in the lower back , which makes sticking out the seat inevitable ( Again , as compared to other skaters ). I see it as a fault, and for me , it spoils their line in many positions. If their posture was corrected , maybe it would mean a temporary loss of speed, but that could be quite quickly rebuilt, and the end result ( no pun intended ), including a bit more balance in their musculature , would be worth it, IMO.Now , I have to say, as to your point #2.. To me, nothing you mention has anything to do with an objective assessment of artistry . I haven't followed any skater's YouTube goofing around ( not Patrick, not Todd Gilles ), but I went to look at Paul's , so I would know what you were talking about. Look , there's nothing wrong with you thinking it's fun and enjoying it , but it doesn't reccommend Paul's creativity to other people , since Debi Thomas created the routine on ice. It is mimicry , which Paul may have a talent for, but it's not creativity. And what does it have to do with Paul's competitive skating ?
Likewise for Andrew..What does a promotional campaign for sport have to do with anything ? I only vaguely remember the campaign.. I actually didn't pay much attention to it. Was the point not to get more people involved in sport and to stress Figure Skating was a difficult , tough sport, like others ?.. Should he have said no , and maybe chalked up a negative point with the Sports federation ? .. Should he have turned down what I assume was a payday for him , when he's involved in such an expensive sport?.. What ? .. Is his sin in appearing to be heterosexual ? ( Because, to at least half the population , that's not a drawback .) ... I frankly couldn't care less what a skater's sexual orientation is , or appears to be ..or a hockey player's ,or a swimmer's, or a skier's, or whatever...( though I admit a hetero appearance is a boon in a romantic program in pairs and dance ). I've always watched for the sport , not to speculate on their personal orientation. .. We're all entitled to our likes and dislikes , but this has nothing to do with whether, or to what degree, Andrew can be called an artistic skater.
I'm not saying you shouldn't prefer whomever you you prefer ( more power to you ) , just that you won't make many converts with that line of reasoning and those examples.
Point 3 doesn't mean a lot to me either , since G/P's school is reputed to have some very ardent followers who try to make as much noise for their skaters as is humanly possible ... I don't know how many of those would have made it to Moncton... But I'm sure the audience appreciated them. It's widely agreed G/P were very entertaining to watch . But you also have to remember that many in the audience at these events, don't have a very good idea of what deserves a greater or lesser score.
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Both Paul and Asher, at the same school for many years, have over developed gluteus maximus muscles , as compared to other male skaters ... I'm speaking as a former ( floor ) dance teacher ... Both also have too much arch in the lower back , which makes sticking out the seat inevitable ( Again , as compared to other skaters ). I see it as a fault, and for me , it spoils their line in many positions.
I totally agree with this. I've just been too chicken to mention it, but have found it distracting and not in a good way.
I totally agree with this. I've just been too chicken to mention it, but have found it distracting and not in a good way.
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