Has Johnny already peaked? (COC/COR Spoilers)
- Thread starter Fossi
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This thread would certainly indicate that Johnny is in a "no-win" situation with "skating critics" (i.e, people like us 
); had he had a bad short or a bad long, there probably would have been a thread titled "Will Johnny Ever Pull It Together?" or something similar......:sheesh:
); had he had a bad short or a bad long, there probably would have been a thread titled "Will Johnny Ever Pull It Together?" or something similar......:sheesh:Peaked? Nah, he's just getting started.
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- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
You are probably correct with that rationale, but there were many of his all time fans (since his early US Nats) that knew he had to straighten himself out and let go of the outside interests of design and Griffin. He did! and I think this is where he is now at. Where he should be. Much too talented to be less than podium.This thread would certainly indicate that Johnny is in a "no-win" situation with "skating critics" (i.e, people like us
Next stop is basically his home town and where he will meet up again with Lambiel, and also Buttle and a revitalized Ponsero (he was in the SA SP). Both Buttle and Lambiel need a win to be considered for the Finals while Johnny needs just a medal.
Let's watch, this should be interesting.
Joe
The areas Johnny needs to work on:
1. He still is not maximizing his jumps. He did 7 triples but only two combos, none a 3-jump combo. He needs to add a 3rd combination, preferably a 3/3/2 or at least a 3/2/2. I have noticed that his 3F is sometimes a bit wild, so maybe that's why he didn't go for a third combination on that jump. But if he switched the position of the solo 3L and the solo 3S (so as to get the .1 bonus) and did 3S3T2L (11 points) or 3S2T2L (8 points) instead of the solo 3S, he'd gain another 7.5-10.5 points, boosting his TES to the low 160s without a quad.
2. Adding the quad to both SP and FS. He can do beatiful clean quads in practice. He needs to take a deep breath and do them in competition. If he doesn't want to risk his GPF spot at CoR, he can wait, but he MUST have the quads for Worlds. If he was really smart, he'd try them at the GPF and at 4CC. He has nothing to lose at either competition.
3. He must do his runthroughs in practice and follow a pre-determined 'what if' strategy when he has a fall on a major jump. That way, he can maximize his TES even if he has a mistake, and not leave out whole jumping passes. Muscle memory can be his best friend.
4. Johnny's final combination spin was a beauty, and he even got a few +2s in GOE. He needs to work on his upright spin (level 3, low +GOE) and his flying sit spin (level3, also low +GOE). The speed on those spins could be improved.
5. The circular footwork is only level1. Johnny needs to work that up to at least a level2.
1. He still is not maximizing his jumps. He did 7 triples but only two combos, none a 3-jump combo. He needs to add a 3rd combination, preferably a 3/3/2 or at least a 3/2/2. I have noticed that his 3F is sometimes a bit wild, so maybe that's why he didn't go for a third combination on that jump. But if he switched the position of the solo 3L and the solo 3S (so as to get the .1 bonus) and did 3S3T2L (11 points) or 3S2T2L (8 points) instead of the solo 3S, he'd gain another 7.5-10.5 points, boosting his TES to the low 160s without a quad.
2. Adding the quad to both SP and FS. He can do beatiful clean quads in practice. He needs to take a deep breath and do them in competition. If he doesn't want to risk his GPF spot at CoR, he can wait, but he MUST have the quads for Worlds. If he was really smart, he'd try them at the GPF and at 4CC. He has nothing to lose at either competition.
3. He must do his runthroughs in practice and follow a pre-determined 'what if' strategy when he has a fall on a major jump. That way, he can maximize his TES even if he has a mistake, and not leave out whole jumping passes. Muscle memory can be his best friend.
4. Johnny's final combination spin was a beauty, and he even got a few +2s in GOE. He needs to work on his upright spin (level 3, low +GOE) and his flying sit spin (level3, also low +GOE). The speed on those spins could be improved.
5. The circular footwork is only level1. Johnny needs to work that up to at least a level2.
I think that was a a case of him failing to close the circle. He made that mistake in Japan; his circular sequence was automatically graded one there, while here I think it was level three. Obviously he needs to practice closing the circle!
He might just be able to get it up with level three closed.I thought like you that the third combo was on the flip but because his flip was not his best jump on the LP, he decided to leave it out. I'm glad though that he is doing back to back 3a while he has his full strength to do them.
I think, considering he is not feeling confident yet, to just try it on the FS, on the SP it could a combo lost if he were to failed it. On the FS that wouldn't be the case.
Didn't he mention Galina makes him do runthroughs? And I agree, problem with Johnny in the past is that when he made a mistake, it seem that he would lose count on how many jumps he had left, now he can have a plan B.
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2003
yeah but considering he's had the quad and is just waiting for the right time to use it for quite a few years, I don't think him saying his has a quad or even doing it in practice bothers Evan that much...
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2007
Johnny skated an easy, good clean skate, but one that by no means was very difficult. It looked very much like the kind of programs he was successful with two years ago. I think it is great that he is finally taking his training seriously, but he has a lot of ground to cover to play hard ball with the big boys. It is true that he would have to rely on others to make mistakes in order to win and I don't think that is what a champion skater does.
If you look at the protocols for CoC, you will see that the base value of Johnny's program was much less than Evan's. Evan is a man on a mission with a lot of fight and grit. Johnny does not have that mental attitude. Evan missed the quad in the SP at SA, but landed a quad in the FS. He did the opposite at CoC. What really hurt Evan was underrotating his 3A following the missed quad, which was probably a result of falling smack on his tailbone with the quad. It is very uncharacteristic of Evan to mess up his jumps. If he had landed his 3A as he usually does, and not been downgraded 4 points, fall or no fall, he would have won the gold by two points, or more, depending on GOE's.
I also agree with the points made above by CHUCKM. Johnny needs work on his footwork. He received only level 1. His spins also need work to be upgraded, as also his combo jumps. He only did a 3z/2t. That isn't going to hold up very well without a quad. Johnny has never successfully landed one. If he is going to go for one at Nationals, he most definitely should put one out at GPF. He also needs to ramp up his transitions and linking footwork.
Whatever he does isn't going to shake up Evan one little bit. Evan has already made up his mind what he is going to do and doesn't pay any attention to anyone else.
I am not a fan of Johnny, but I have always been sorry to see him wasting his talent. I was glad to see him come to his senses. However, I really wonder if he is going to be able to sustain the momentum. He said in his journal that he hates being the machine he has become. Winning one minor competition does not "put him on top," or make him "number one" again. I still think Mr. Weir needs a reality check.
If you look at the protocols for CoC, you will see that the base value of Johnny's program was much less than Evan's. Evan is a man on a mission with a lot of fight and grit. Johnny does not have that mental attitude. Evan missed the quad in the SP at SA, but landed a quad in the FS. He did the opposite at CoC. What really hurt Evan was underrotating his 3A following the missed quad, which was probably a result of falling smack on his tailbone with the quad. It is very uncharacteristic of Evan to mess up his jumps. If he had landed his 3A as he usually does, and not been downgraded 4 points, fall or no fall, he would have won the gold by two points, or more, depending on GOE's.
I also agree with the points made above by CHUCKM. Johnny needs work on his footwork. He received only level 1. His spins also need work to be upgraded, as also his combo jumps. He only did a 3z/2t. That isn't going to hold up very well without a quad. Johnny has never successfully landed one. If he is going to go for one at Nationals, he most definitely should put one out at GPF. He also needs to ramp up his transitions and linking footwork.
Whatever he does isn't going to shake up Evan one little bit. Evan has already made up his mind what he is going to do and doesn't pay any attention to anyone else.
I am not a fan of Johnny, but I have always been sorry to see him wasting his talent. I was glad to see him come to his senses. However, I really wonder if he is going to be able to sustain the momentum. He said in his journal that he hates being the machine he has become. Winning one minor competition does not "put him on top," or make him "number one" again. I still think Mr. Weir needs a reality check.
Let's not read too much into any one competition. Remember Miki Ando last season? After SA, there were speculations she had had the best skates of her senior career. After the GPF, where she bombed, may were sure of it -- until Worlds. Similarly, we won't know if Johnny peaked at CoC until after Worlds. He could be another Miki -- strong skates early and late, trouble in the middle; he could be another Irina -- undefeated all season long.
I think, though, that if he has a quad, he should try it at CoR. According to the commentators, it helps when a skater blows a jump to be able to think how often he has landed it successfully in competition -- so Johnny needs to get a few under his belt before Nats and Worlds.
I think, though, that if he has a quad, he should try it at CoR. According to the commentators, it helps when a skater blows a jump to be able to think how often he has landed it successfully in competition -- so Johnny needs to get a few under his belt before Nats and Worlds.
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
Given Weir's jumping skills and his hatred of practicing spins, if he maximizes the jumping passes with two more 2T's, he can neutralize the L1 and L2 in his program. Skaters don't get that much more credit for upgrading spins and footwork.
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- Jan 30, 2004
First I want to say I don't have the time to keep up with all the posts here and I have a hard time keeping up with even reading about the competitions. For one thing, I like to remain unspoiled.
Anyway, I just wanted to say:
Well said Toni:
I have ALWAYS been a fan of Johnny's artistry. I have NOT been a fan of his personality off the ice...the boas and heels and shirtless 'trying to look sexy' poses in photos, etc. YULK.
I was very, very pleased and impressed to see Johnny skate a wonderful, strong, clean long program the other evening when I watched COC. I was also impressed with his interview. He sounded much more mature and so much less dramatic than in previous interviews. And his new hair cut makes him look more like a guy. I wish him nothing but the best. Artistry like his shouldn't go to waste, whether he continue working hard in competitions or go on to be a great part of a professional tour of some sort.
Anyway, I just wanted to say:
Well said Toni:
I have ALWAYS been a fan of Johnny's artistry. I have NOT been a fan of his personality off the ice...the boas and heels and shirtless 'trying to look sexy' poses in photos, etc. YULK.
I was very, very pleased and impressed to see Johnny skate a wonderful, strong, clean long program the other evening when I watched COC. I was also impressed with his interview. He sounded much more mature and so much less dramatic than in previous interviews. And his new hair cut makes him look more like a guy. I wish him nothing but the best. Artistry like his shouldn't go to waste, whether he continue working hard in competitions or go on to be a great part of a professional tour of some sort.
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2005
Very true, but perhaps if he is getting more confident this year then past years he will be more likely to put his money where his mouth is so to speak and put it in.
There are different kinds of skaters, and more than one sort of reason for liking particular skaters. "De gustibus non disputandem est". It gives me pleasure to watch some skaters, whether or not they win. There are others who do well in the medals department, whom I simply do not enjoy watching.
Johnny is someone I love to watch, and most of all, when he is skating in his own particular fashion. He seems to be, with Galina Zmievskaya's help, melding his innate artistic sense with the point-count game that CoP has forced upon him. John Curry did not do quads, as far as I know, but when a friend gave me URLs to watch on YouTube of Mr. Curry's skating, I *loved* what I saw. Johnny reminds me of that, because he has a unique style, full of flow and liquidity, soft edges, connectedness of movements, that to me represent an ideal in men's skating, especially since he has one of the best triple axels out there in men's eligible skating at the moment. It is a triple axel with good outflow, graceful, strong, and effortless-looking, when Johnny is at his best.
Will Johnny keep up the good work, and perhaps, even add a quad to his arsenal in actual competition this season? Who knows? There are always so many variables, such as illness and injury, that influence a skater's output at any given time. Look what Lambiel was able to show at CoC; ouch.
I am very happy for Johnny, and I hope he continues to stay fit and train well with Zmievskaya. Since, as some have asserted, there is still room for improvement/development, why worry about his having peaked? Surely, that worry is premature. Sufficient to the day are the worries therein.
Johnny is someone I love to watch, and most of all, when he is skating in his own particular fashion. He seems to be, with Galina Zmievskaya's help, melding his innate artistic sense with the point-count game that CoP has forced upon him. John Curry did not do quads, as far as I know, but when a friend gave me URLs to watch on YouTube of Mr. Curry's skating, I *loved* what I saw. Johnny reminds me of that, because he has a unique style, full of flow and liquidity, soft edges, connectedness of movements, that to me represent an ideal in men's skating, especially since he has one of the best triple axels out there in men's eligible skating at the moment. It is a triple axel with good outflow, graceful, strong, and effortless-looking, when Johnny is at his best.
Will Johnny keep up the good work, and perhaps, even add a quad to his arsenal in actual competition this season? Who knows? There are always so many variables, such as illness and injury, that influence a skater's output at any given time. Look what Lambiel was able to show at CoC; ouch.
I am very happy for Johnny, and I hope he continues to stay fit and train well with Zmievskaya. Since, as some have asserted, there is still room for improvement/development, why worry about his having peaked? Surely, that worry is premature. Sufficient to the day are the worries therein.
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Lysacek not worried? His behavior at CoC showed that he was not only worried, he was P*SS*D. Storming out of the KnC without staying to see his marks, and his grumpy responses to the interview with Peter show that he was very much put out by losing to Johnny.
Johnny still had only two combos in his FS; if he added a third 3-jump combo and upped his spin levels only slightly, he could easily match or even exceed the points Evan gets for a quad in the FS. Johnny gets better GOE on his jumps than Evan does, especially on the 3A, because Johnny's jump technique is textbook clean and solid and Evan's is rough and tumble. Now if Johnny successfully adds a quad, Evan faces a huge challenge.
Evan can't be happy to see Johnny in a more positive frame of mind, because he's no longer going to be as easily intimidated as he was at Nationals 2007.
Johnny still had only two combos in his FS; if he added a third 3-jump combo and upped his spin levels only slightly, he could easily match or even exceed the points Evan gets for a quad in the FS. Johnny gets better GOE on his jumps than Evan does, especially on the 3A, because Johnny's jump technique is textbook clean and solid and Evan's is rough and tumble. Now if Johnny successfully adds a quad, Evan faces a huge challenge.
Evan can't be happy to see Johnny in a more positive frame of mind, because he's no longer going to be as easily intimidated as he was at Nationals 2007.
Based on what I've seen in the vids of the CoC medal ceremony and pc, I'd say Evan behaved like a complete ..... Good luck with that attitude, Ev.
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- Oct 31, 2006
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Based on what Johnny put out on the ice, I don't think Evan was worried at all. Mad at himself and perhaps annoyed that he's doing the more difficult elements and Johnny won with an easier program, yes, I think that is where his mind was. He was SO CLOSE to Weir point-wise that he HAD to be mad at himself. If only he had fully rotated the 3Axel that got downgraded to a 2Axel, he would have won Cup of China. Had he nailed the 4toe combo in the LP, he would have far and away ran away with the COC title. There would be a case to think Evan was worried if Johnny had actually out-skated him technically by performing the quad in the short and the long, but that wasn't the case at all. It's really at a point now that once Johnny and Evan reach the stage where the quad is going to be a necessity (come worlds and later at the Olympics), Evan is going to have so much mileage built up from all of the practicing he's done in competition that the quad is going to be much more comfortable to attempt for him than for Johnny. I would like to see both of them skate cleanly at Nationals and let the cards fall where they may with the judging. Hopefully, it will be a cleanly skated, fairly judged event, which is what I want to see happen at all the competitions, even if that is not always the reality.
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