Has Johnny already peaked? (COC/COR Spoilers)

[decker]

So we've gone from asking if Johnny peaked too early to asking if he's just a no-talent, lazy bum. ITA with whoever already said Johnny is damned no matter what he does.

Given that Johnny and Galina Galina Zmievskaya have managed to whip him into shape for his first clean competition in I don't know when, they might just have a plan to ramp up the difficulty over the course of the season.

Actually, I suspect she beats him with a stick when nobody's looking.

As to the off-ice matters, Evan's superiority in media matters is grossly overstated. I thought Johnny's bit about the black bus aura was nonsense, but Evan's post-CoC behavior was equally poor. He hit one little bump along the road, and his best response was to slag off his coach and make excuses.

If I had landed the quad, it would have been totally different? Yeah. And if froggie had wings, he wouldn't bump his @ss a hoppin'.

Susan

 

[Mafke]

Actually, I suspect she beats him with a stick when nobody's looking.

And _I_ suspect he _likes_ it ....

 

[Mathman]

 

[bekalc]

So we've gone from asking if Johnny peaked too early to asking if he's just a no-talent, lazy bum. ITA with whoever already said Johnny is damned no matter what he does.

Given that Johnny and Galina Galina Zmievskaya have managed to whip him into shape for his first clean competition in I don't know when, they might just have a plan to ramp up the difficulty over the course of the season.

Actually, I suspect she beats him with a stick when nobody's looking.

As to the off-ice matters, Evan's superiority in media matters is grossly overstated. I thought Johnny's bit about the black bus aura was nonsense, but Evan's post-CoC behavior was equally poor. He hit one little bump along the road, and his best response was to slag off his coach and make excuses.

If I had landed the quad, it would have been totally different? Yeah. And if froggie had wings, he wouldn't bump his @ss a hoppin'.

Susan

Huh? I didn't think Evan leaving the kiss and cry was that bad.. He looked disappointed but so what, is he suppose to smile and act all happy like? As for him saying if he handed landed the quad it would be different, well that's true. But that's not really Evan making excuses, because he admitted it was his mistake.

There's a big difference between saying that and saying they changed the bus schedule without me knowing and it caused me to have a black aura. . Big difference between Evan's remark and Johnny's remark.

 

[Mathman]

But then, too, I think Johnny's "black aura" rematks were truthful, too. Sometimes you just don't have your mojo on.

 

[bekalc]

But then, too, I think Johnny's "black aura" rematks were truthful, too. Sometimes you just don't have your mojo on.

Perhaps... But Johnny missed a whole jumping pass... It's not like Johnny just fell or had a jump downgraded, Johnny quite frankly was a mess..

 

[Tonichelle]

both of them have made excuses in the past for bad skates

Evan's just seems to be a little less on the whiney side (he's sick, etc) to most people...

I didn't think Evan's leaving the K&C was as bad as people made it out to be... Kurt Browning walked off early from the K&C after his awful SP in 94... and that's just one example out of many... why sit there for ever and smile and wave when you're ticked? then people get on your case like they did in 02 with Sale and Pelletier...

 

[seafoam]

Evan's departure from the K&C was no worse than Johnny's after his Olympic FS. But, of course, Johnny was also depicted as "storming out" of the K&C. I have to wonder if the people who described it like that even saw it. That had to be the most disappointingly undiva-ish storming out ever, lol.

I wish we could call a moratorium on referring back to the "black aura" remark, or at least take it in context. I read all, and I mean all, the post FS interviews with Johnny, and in many of them, the journalist mentioned that he smiled or laughed slightly as he said it. It may have had some truth in it, but he didn't mean it dead seriously. I think Johnny says a lot of things jokingly that don't translate well to the printed page.

And for whoever back in the thread said this, Johnny never said he "liked" cocaine--he used the words cocaine and cognac in a metaphor about the difference between the mood of his SP and Ryan Bradley's. And he meant it as a compliment to Ryan.

What bothers me about Evan is that he always seem sullen and angry about something--even when he wins! I don't get it. And he never seems to give credit where it's due when he's edged out by someone who just had a fantastic skate. Maybe he sees it as part of his competitive edge, but it borders on poor sportsmanship, IMO. For all his flaws, Johnny was incredibly gracious after Evan's win at Nats, as he has been at many other competitions.

 

[soogar]

I was pretty disappointed with Weir's programs at COC. My impression was that he was more restrained than usual and had taken a step backward from the direction he had taken his skating last season. I don't feel that he has peaked at all. In fact, it seems to be a good strategy to skate an "easy" program (for him) and work more difficulty into the programs as the season progresses. However I hope this is just a transitory period for him to get more confidence competing because I hate to see him skate these kind of programs. The ones he had last season were more ambitious.

Plus that haircut was horrible. I never thought I'd see Johnny working the bowl cut.

 

[chuckm]

Sorry, but Johnny's program just LOOKED easy because he was so much in control of his jumps, which was not the case last season. You don't get 76.38 TES for an 'easy' FS. He needs to step up the difficulty in the footwork and add a 3-jump combination, and that could move his TES up to the 80 level---without a quad.

 

[OldSkaterMom]

This whole discussion just makes me laugh. hahahaha! Johnny is a marvelous talented skater, but so is Evan. They have very different styles, but that is not unusual among skaters. Would be awfully boring if they were all the same.

IMO Johnny gets boring because his skates look all the same. Evan's are real stunners and have you holding your breath and out of your seat long before he is finished. His straight line footwork that he has put in Singin the Rain, Grease, Carmen, Zorro, Espana Cani, The Feeling Begins, and now Tosca is captivating and always original and, not to mention difficult. Evan's height and long, lean, line makes him stand out above all the other skaters. His style is distinctly different because of his height. He can skate to any kind of music and interpret it beautifully. He has great danceability. His exhibition programs are also fantastic. He is the most consistent jumper among all of the men. He just has to get the quad as consistent. Evan also gains speed and energy as his program progresses, rather than the other way around. He literally explodes during his last 30 seconds of those marvelous straightline footwork sequences that gets everyone out of their seats cheering and roaring. Admittedly his 3A does have a troublesome takeoff, but he has never been downgraded for it. His underotation was very obvous at CoC, and he has never been known for doing that before.

I cannot understand the criticism of Evan's skating. His inflated score at Nationals was not such a big deal. At 4CC just a few weeks later, he scored an 85 point something for TES and a personal best of 159 something total score. His 81.55 at CoC was a personal best for the SP. At World's he had the guts to put out the quad in both his SP and FS. He didn't win a medal, but he achieved what he set out to do. He could have played it safe, and won a medal. Same as a Skate America and CoC. After Johnny's FS, Evan didn't need to attempt the quad in order to win. His level of difficulty was higher than Johnny's and he would have won. Evan doesn't get -GOE's. In both competitions he basically gave away the gold in order to put the quads out there and he has said he isn't going to back off. I would imagine one thing he is getting tired of is the media continually asking him if it was worth the risk, when he has repeatedly said he is aiming for 2009 Worlds and 2010 Olympics. But that doesn't mean he isn't going to naturally be disappointed. He is human after all.

Evan has consistently placed higher than Johnny right from the getgo at World's. In 2005 his SP was remarkable and won him the bronze medal. In his post FS interview at 2005 Worlds, he freely admitted that it was hard to go out there after Stephane had such a great skate and a huge ovation, but he did not fall apart. In 2006,he won the bronze again with a great FS, while Johnny didn't want to even be there. At the Olympics he rebounded from 10th place to 4th by placing 3rd in the FS. At 2006 Nationals, he barely missed beating Johnny out of the gold simply by a fall in his straight line footwork. He lost by a very, very slim margin. Johnny had problems in his LP. Johnny has usually been a very good SP skater, but not a LP skater.

Evan is a very good all-around skater. He is hard on himself because he skates for clean programs. The quad is a very hard element and takes a lot out of a skater. A fall on a quad is difficult to recover from, especially when landed on your tail bone. Evan said he did not recover from that fall until about 2 1/2 minutes into that program, but you never would have known it except for the underotated axel.

Evan is the hardest working, most dedicated skater of them all. Evan is the skater who trains like a Russian skater. It is Evgeni Plushenko who has been his role model. Evan treats skating as his job. He learned that from Evgeni. Johnny make like Russia and all things Russian. But someone said that if that were really true, he would train like a Russian. ITA. I predict that Johnny will not hold up under his new Russian coach because he won't be able to sustain the level of training, and it is only going to get more intense. Johnny is being made to sacrifice things he likes to do and would rather be doing for skating, and I don't think that is going to keep happening forever. He made the comment to Peter C. that Galina gets in his face and makes his do it even if he doesn't want to. A champion skater doesn't have to be made to want to do it. A champion skater wants to do it because he wants to be a champion.

BTW, did any of you catch the statement Johnny made about not training quads in the summer? He doesn't train them in the summer because he has thin bones. Did you ever? That is the excuse to top all excuses,

Also, did you ever notice that Evan puts 3z and his back spiral into a 3f, sometimes in combo, and a 3t in every exhibition program, and includes his difficult footwork and spins. His exhibition programs look almost as difficult as his competition programs. He doesn't back off anything. Also, go back and watch Evan in 2000, 2001, and you can see the talent he had then that he definitely has now. He was always praised for his flow into and out of jumps and his skill in presentation and expression. I believe that he and Johnny have the most beautiful ride outs on jumps of any skater today.

So enough said of Evan not being talented. He and Johnny are both talented, but with different styles. Evan has been more trained. Time will tell with Johnny.

 

[twinsissv]

HOORAY FOR JOHNNY!!!

 

[Hsuhs]

OldSkaterMom, sounds like you like Evan.

HOORAY FOR JOHNNY!!!

What has he done now?

 

[slutskayafan21]

I cannot understand the criticism of Evan's skating. His inflated score at Nationals was not such a big deal. At 4CC just a few weeks later, he scored an 85 point something for TES and a personal best of 159 something total score.

A full 10 points lower, and only 1 small mistake difference between the 2 skates. You just proved how inflated his Nationals score was. Also scores in your own country are usually higher then elsewhere, the same skate in Europe would score even lower. Actually his Worlds LP proves that, he scored only a 148+ with only 5.5 worth of mistakes and not really disruptive ones at all (a doubled triple loop, small 3 turns after 2 jumps worth -1 on each). Even if you add a bit in GOE or PCS he would not have reached even the 159+ from Four Continents, nor would he have managed to prevent Lambiel with mistakes of his own from passing him for the bronze.

He could have played it safe, and won a medal.

Evan is not even close to good enough to get the kind of scores needed to medal at last years worlds quadless. So no he couldnt have just played it safe and won a medal, that is his ego and the ego of his fans talking. As I already said his long program skated cleanly even with a quad seemingly would not have gotten the score needed, his protocals indicate that.

After Johnny's FS, Evan didn't need to attempt the quad in order to win.

Given that Evan scored only a 152.38 for a near flawless skate with the quad at Skate America, that without the quad his base value drops over 5 points, and that he needed almost at 150 to win, your claim is doubtful at best.

 

[momjudi]

. edited to remove double post - sorry

 

[momjudi]

This is the first season that Evan has been able to land his 3A without cheating the takeoff so I really wouldn't call him the most consistent skater of all the men as far as jumps.

The point difference between Johnny and Evan at 2006 Nationals would have been much greater had Johnny not improvised and added a jump to his double footed 3A in the free skate. Doing that made Johnny's last combo worthless. Had Johnny not improvised and gotten the full credit for the three planned combos, the point difference would had been greater. Johnny's jumps were much more secure then Evan's at the 2006 Nationals.

I'd rather wait until Johnny skates uninjured and healthy at World's before I compare his and Evan's skates. Johnny has been either injured or ill the past two years at Worlds - in 2005 he had a bad foot injury that almost took him out of the competition and in 2006 he was battling severe back spasms and undiagnosed mono.

Unless you are Johnny's doctor, you have no knowledge whether or not Johnny has been told not to train quads full time. Johnny did have a stress fracture in his leg at age 16 which was attributed to practicing quads.

 

[Tonichelle]

What bothers me about Evan is that he always seem sullen and angry about something--even when he wins!

has he ever had a perfectly clean skate with everything he wanted in it? that could be the reason... maybe he knows better

as for what he says or doesn't say... we can go back and forth as to who doesn't translate well on paper on screen... they have both said less than stellar things... they're not the first two rivals to be stuck in the media battle, they won't be the last.

 

[slutskayafan21]

has he ever had a perfectly clean skate with everything he wanted in it? that could be the reason... maybe he knows better

Yes, lots of times:

2005 NHK - short and long there
2006 Olympics - long program
2006 Worlds - long program
2006 Skate America - long program
2007 Cup of China - long program
2007 U.S Nationals- long program
2007 Four Continents - long program
2007 Skate America - long program

4 of the first 5 there was no quad but he wasnt planning a quad those times anyway.

 

[Tonichelle]

did he have the perfect take off for everything? did he not feel the music enough.

who knows why he's not always happy looking... you can always do better...

 

[OldSkaterMom]

Slutskayafan21, you really seem to love, not just like Johnny and will defend him to the death.

As far as Evan not needing the quad to win at CoC, you are failing to take into consideration that Evan's opening jump would have been a 3Z/3t, followed by the 3A, which would have given him plenty of points to win the gold.

Also, regarding 2007 Nationals, Johnny made the remark that when Evan won the SP after Johnny had skated his best, he KNEW that USFSA wanted Evan to win. Pure nonsense. The judges cannot manipulate a competition like that. The fact of the matter is that Johnny gave up then and there. After he looked at the protocols he saw that one of his footwork step sequences was only given a level 2, something that Johnny consistenly scores lower on. Granted it was difficult for Johnny to follow Evan's fantastic skate, but Johnny had already decided that he had lost. So don't say that USFSA purposely caused Evan to win. Evan won fair and square on his own. Evan has also, by the info in your own post, skated many, many more clean LP's than Johnny ever has.

Furthermore, 4CC was an International competition with International judges. Of course the scores are not going to be as inflated as Nationals. Evan's quad in that program was by his own admission, "scratchy," and the difference in points for his LP was only 6. Evan's score for his LP was just about what Evgeni received for his Olympic program.

Yes I like Evan Lysacek. I first noticed him at 2005 Worlds as a skater worth keeping an eye on. I don't know how long you have been following ice skating, but my name "OldSkaterMOM, isn't for nothing. I have been following ice skating since 1968. Both of my daughters skated competitively back in the late '80's, early '90's and trained at the UofD where Johnny began his training and where Kimmie Meissner and other world class skaters train and have trained. I do know a fair amount about the sport. I do know what it takes to make a champion figure skater, and it takes more than talent. A skater can go so far on talent, but eventually has to put in the blood, sweat, and tears. Evan Lysacek has both.

You are totally off base to say that the only way Evan can medal at World's is for the other men to wipe out. If that were the case, why does he already have two World bronze medals? I would wager that you are describing Johnny instead.

Trashing and criticizing Evan and his skating is not going to make Johnny a better skater or win him more titles. Darn hard work and grit is what will do it. I know Evan has it in him. I don't know if Johnny does. Only time will tell. I, for one, would like to see Johnny buck up and quit the tears when he loses.

Also, personally, I think Evan has already done, in one year, more to promote the sport in the US than Johnny ever did in his three years as National Champ. Evan knows how to give interviews, is comfortable with the press, and doesn't say stupid things just to gain undesirable attention. As a long time skating fan, and former member of USFSA, I have been appalled at some of the things Johnny has said. Especially noteworthy are his comments before the 2006 Nationals. He was commenting on his outlandish comments and behavior and he said if the USFSA doesn't like it, "they could just eat it." I think that is a crudely insulting comment to make to your federation who is promoting you and supporting your training financially. There are such things as manners and appropriate behavior. Why do you think the "Champs Camp" was held this past summer with mandatory attendance required of all envelope A & B skaters? I believe the USFSA does have the right to expect certain things of their elite athletes. It is just too bad that JW has taken so long to figure things out.

That is all I have to say on the matter. The debate will never be resolved here. We can agree to disagree, but I cannot tolerate false statements being made about any skater. If you wish to state something, check your facts first. Evan Lysacek has never made excuses for himself. He is a person of integrity and honesty who trains with one of the best coaches the US has. As soon as Evan sat down in the K&C, Frank Carroll had already figured out what was wrong with Evan's quad....he was dropping his shoulder (don't remember which one, but even Paul Wylie mentioned it). If Evan was out of line with his K&C behavior at CoC, you can believe that he will have heard about it from his coach.