Has Johnny already peaked? (COC/COR Spoilers)

[chuckm]

But that's just the point: Evan DIDN'T rotate the 3A, and this is a continuing problem for him. He's gotten away with it in the past, but this year the tech team is cracking down on underrotations, and Evan is up against it.

Evan's 3A has always been borderline, and sometimes the 4T as well, and Johnny's jumps are textbook-clean. Evan is in a similar position to Caroline Zhang and Mao Asada, who have been faced with numerous UR and edge calls this season. Caroline can't beat Kimmie and Mao can't beat Yu-Na if they are going to get dinged left and right with tech calls. As long as Johnny continues to skate as well as he did at CoC, Evan has to depend on landing his quad, and that only adds to the pressure on him as defending National champion.

The competitors at these events do look at the protocols, and Evan HAS to be aware that Johnny gets +GOE on most, if not all, his jumps, and Evan gets lots of minuses.

Should be an exciting competition in January.

 

[museksk8r]

But that's just the point: Evan DIDN'T rotate the 3A, and this is a continuing problem for him. He's gotten away with it in the past, but this year the tech team is cracking down on underrotations, and Evan is up against it.

Evan's 3A has always been borderline, and sometimes the 4T as well, and Johnny's jumps are textbook-clean. Evan is in a similar position to Caroline Zhang and Mao Asada, who have been faced with numerous UR and edge calls this season. Caroline can't beat Kimmie and Mao can't beat Yu-Na if they are going to get dinged left and right with tech calls. As long as Johnny continues to skate as well as he did at CoC, Evan has to depend on landing his quad, and that only adds to the pressure on him as defending National champion.

The competitors at these events do look at the protocols, and Evan HAS to be aware that Johnny gets +GOE on most, if not all, his jumps, and Evan gets lots of minuses.

Should be an exciting competition in January.

How is under-rotating the 3Axel a "continuing problem" for Evan. I just checked the protocols from this season's Skate America and Cup of China and out of 6 attempts at the 3Axel, he's only been downgraded for one of them and that was the first attempt in the LP at Cup of China. How do you define that as "continuing"?

 

[hockeyfan228]

Weir doesn't have to do anything Weir doesn't want to do -- it's his life -- but the one thing that consistently strong skaters have brought to competition is the ability to skate at a high standard repeatedly, after bad travelling conditions, being woken up in the middle of the night by smoke alarms, getting stopped at customs, eating bad food, etc.

I think it's great that Weir has started so strongly. I hope he keeps repeating and repeating with strength as the season goes on.

 

[Mathman]

How is under-rotating the 3Axel a "continuing problem" for Evan. I just checked the protocols from this season's Skate America and Cup of China and out of 6 attempts at the 3Axel, he's only been downgraded for one of them and that was the first attempt in the LP at Cup of China. How do you define that as "continuing"?

I think the point is that Evan has always had a strange technique on his triple Axel, which features a pretty hefty pre-rotation.

In the past he has gotten away with it. But this year the tech specialists seem to be under instructions to clamp down on that sort of thing.

I agree abut Evan's attitude at Cup of China, though. I think he was mad at himself for missing his two big elements, not mad at Johnny for skating well.

 

[slutskayafan21]

Lysacek not worried? His behavior at CoC showed that he was not only worried, he was P*SS*D. Storming out of the KnC without staying to see his marks, and his grumpy responses to the interview with Peter show that he was very much put out by losing to Johnny.

Johnny still had only two combos in his FS; if he added a third 3-jump combo and upped his spin levels only slightly, he could easily match or even exceed the points Evan gets for a quad in the FS. Johnny gets better GOE on his jumps than Evan does, especially on the 3A, because Johnny's jump technique is textbook clean and solid and Evan's is rough and tumble. Now if Johnny successfully adds a quad, Evan faces a huge challenge.

Evan can't be happy to see Johnny in a more positive frame of mind, because he's no longer going to be as easily intimidated as he was at Nationals 2007.

If you are talking about U.S Nationals dont forget that Evan is the golden boy of the USFSA, while Johhny has been slandered by some of the powers that be publicly in the last year. They give every impression of wanting a mans man as their representative. How the two are scored internationally will not neccessarily reflect on how they are scored Nationally relative to each other.

 

[attyfan]

If you are talking about U.S Nationals dont forget that Evan is the golden boy of the USFSA, while Johhny has been slandered by some of the powers that be publicly in the last year. They give every impression of wanting a mans man as their representative. How the two are scored internationally will not neccessarily reflect on how they are scored Nationally relative to each other.

IMO, so far, the two are getting placed (if not scored) depending on how they skate. At Nats, with the exception of 2007, Johnny outskated Evan and was placed accordingly; in 2007, Evan was on fire and deserved to win. Internationally, the same rule applies. When Johnny skates better he is scored higher (think SP in Torino); when Evan does better (think Torino FS) he is rewarded.

 

[bekalc]

If you are talking about U.S Nationals dont forget that Evan is the golden boy of the USFSA, while Johhny has been slandered by some of the powers that be publicly in the last year. They give every impression of wanting a mans man as their representative. How the two are scored internationally will not neccessarily reflect on how they are scored Nationally relative to each other.

Huh? Personally, I think the USFSA right now does prefer Evan.. But I don't think it's so much because Evan is manly and Johnny isn't...I think it's a combination of a lot things...Such as Evan's work ethic versus Johnny's. How Evan conducts himself in public via the media versus how Johnny does etc.

This being said if Johnny actually started living up to his talent the USFSA would forgive him all.

 

[slutskayafan21]

IMO, so far, the two are getting placed (if not scored) depending on how they skate. At Nats, with the exception of 2007, Johnny outskated Evan and was placed accordingly; in 2007, Evan was on fire and deserved to win. Internationally, the same rule applies. When Johnny skates better he is scored higher (think SP in Torino); when Evan does better (think Torino FS) he is rewarded.

Evan deserved to win Nationals last year since he skated great and Johnny had a faultly LP performance. However in no way did Evan deserve to win the short program over Johnny were both skated cleanly. I saw both programs so I can honestly say that without prejudged views, but regardless if you like this as a generalized statement or not Evan being placed over a skater like Johnny with both skating cleanly and doing the exact same jumps is obviously ridiculous enough to begin with. It reminded me alot of the ridiculous 2001 World juniors short program judging where Evan was placed over Lambiel with both skating cleanly doing the same jumps. Evan would never be placed over skaters whose quality is that superior to his overall (Weir, Lambiel, Takahashi, etc...)under those circumstances if the judging is done by any merit whatsoever, and the very rare times something like that does happen you know something is fishy, and regarding U.S Nationals last year given the pre-event shows buffing Evan up and slandering Johnny it isnt hard to see the push behind Evan going into the event, and thus more easily understand the completely illogical short program decision.

Also Evans score in the LP was proposterous, a 169+ plus for Evan. That was right before Johnny skated too, so that says it all right there. They buffed Evans score up to something ridiculous, atleast 10 points higher then even his best skate would get outside of the U.S, to make sure he would win no matter what, lets face it once Evans score came up you knew Johnny had no chance.

 

[Hsuhs]

If you are talking about U.S Nationals dont forget that Evan is the golden boy of the USFSA, while Johhny has been slandered by some of the powers that be publicly in the last year. They give every impression of wanting a mans man as their representative.

I agree but I also think it's Evan's and Johnny's conscious choices as well. Johnny, too, could insist on skating in SA every year, and they'd let him to. He could choose to behave like a good Christian boy ala Timothy Goebel. Or to sit in the stands next to Ron Hershberger and have a lovely chat with the guy, like Evan did. Johnny's screwed up all those great opportunities himself.

 

[slutskayafan21]

I agree Johnny has dug his own grave in the U.S with some of his own behavior. I hope he is changed for the better both on and off the ice this year, and that will allow the USFSA to feel more comfortable throwing their support behind the actual better skater (Weir) who actually has more chance to win medals on his own accord at the highest level if he gets his act together; rather then continue to give their most push behind the average overachiever (Lysacek) who is only going to continue to be a skater who will need to deliver his best and others to skate half the program on their butts (eg-the way Joubert did at the 2005 Worlds and 2006 Olympics, the way Buttle did in the Worlds LP, the way Lambiel did at COC, that is the only way Evan ever beats top skaters, never by his own skating) to even pick up another bronze medal at the World level.

If the U.S is going to put their eggs in the Lysacek basket they better get alot of voodoo dolls of the top international men if they hope for a medal, let alone a gold medal, from a U.S man in Vancouver. Hopefully Johnny gives them more reason to feel comfortable enough with him to start again giving some backing to their real most talented elite skater.

 

[bekalc]

Slutskayafan, I totally believe that Weir is the more talented skater. But in someways the fact that Weir is so talented is kind of what makes me admirer Lyseck.

Let me put it this way, a lot of Johnny's ooohhhh Whoa is me... I think is crap. I think the USFSA would be willing to put with quite a lot from Johnny if Johnny well was doing what he's suppose to be doing skating wise... Quite a lot. Johnny has all the talent in the world..

If Lyseck had Weir's talent, Lyseck would probably be a multi world champion by now. Which is why I refuse to feel sorry for Weir...
And this doesn't make Lyseck look bad, this makes Weir look bad.

One of the best comments I've heard in regards to Johnny is, if Johnny really wanted to emulate the Russians he would train as the Russians trained.

Oh the Russians might like Johnny but that's because the Russian Federation doesn't have to really deal with him... I think that if they had to deal with Weir, well...it would be a whole different ball game.

I'm totally glad that Weir seems to be getting his act together. Great, but let's see how long it lasts. But nope, I don't feel sorry for him.

(I also suspect if Johnny was Russian he'd be probably running around in TEAM USA shirts ,because I suspect a big part of Johnny likes to be controversial and argumentative. (I can't criticize him to much because I sometimes like to be argumentative too. Although, I wouldn't go that far...)

 

[Tonichelle]

agree but I also think it's Evan's and Johnny's conscious choices as well. Johnny, too, could insist on skating in SA every year, and they'd let him to. He could choose to behave like a good Christian boy ala Timothy Goebel. Or to sit in the stands next to Ron Hershberger and have a lovely chat with the guy, like Evan did. Johnny's screwed up all those great opportunities himself.

I don't think it's the percieved sexuality so much as the perceived lack of patriotism...

he wore a Russian Jacket while representing the US at the Olympics... it didn't do the USFSA a whole lot of good in the PR department to have their top ranked male skater rooting for the other team...

Not only that but Johnny normally doesn't do as well internationally as Evan, like it or not they still make decisions based on past performances (as we can still see with the grace points being given this season to other skaters)

 

[bekalc]

I don't think it's the percieved sexuality so much as the perceived lack of patriotism... )

Yep, For example, the USFSA loved Brian Botonio and a bunch of other skaters who sexuality was well ummm questionable...

Although I don't think appreciate Johnny walking around in fishnet stockings, but even that I think they could live with... But the whole, I like cocaine, Go Russia, blaming the buss, for me criticizing Sasha Cohen's inconsistency, lapping up the media attention in the Olympics instead of focusing on his programs what he was suppose to be doing, not to mention lack of training. All of this is what's annoying the USFSA...Who Johnny sleeps with, they could probably care less about. Although they do seem to like Evan's masculinity...

 

[Hsuhs]

I don't think it's the percieved sexuality so much as the perceived lack of patriotism...

But I haven't said a word about sexuality. And I have very original ideas about patriotism.

 

[Tonichelle]

Who Johnny sleeps with, they could probably care less about. Although they do seem to like Evan's masculinity...

No, the American MEDIA is what pushed the Tanith Evan thing... and points out who designs his costumes... the USFSA didn't make a press release about it... People Magazine and ABC/ESPN (and now NBC) kept putting it out there... (And really is it to push a masculine skater, or just to show Tanith again? )

as for scoring... I still think it has more to do with Evan being an explosive skater to that of a quiet one... Evan's goal seems to be to reach out and strangle every single audience member so they that get that he's skating to them... Johnny skates inwardly (this is not knocking either one, to each their own)

Evan and Johnny are just as different as night and day as skaters... so it's not just polarizing for skating fans... I'm sure it affects judges when in comes to PCS - they're human too and it depends on what they're looking for to deem it 'presentation'

Johnny's quiet skating - along with music choices - normally keeps the audience breathless, and the excitement builds only after he's done (For fear of disturbing the magic)

Evan's music and explosiveness gets the crowd roaring early on...

I think that affects the judging more than anything...

 

[attyfan]

Evan deserved to win Nationals last year since he skated great and Johnny had a faultly LP performance. However in no way did Evan deserve to win the short program over Johnny were both skated cleanly. I saw both programs so I can honestly say that without prejudged views, but regardless if you like this as a generalized statement or not Evan being placed over a skater like Johnny with both skating cleanly and doing the exact same jumps is obviously ridiculous enough to begin with. ...

Also Evans score in the LP was proposterous, a 169+ plus for Evan. That was right before Johnny skated too, so that says it all right there. They buffed Evans score up to something ridiculous, atleast 10 points higher then even his best skate would get outside of the U.S, to make sure he would win no matter what, lets face it once Evans score came up you knew Johnny had no chance.

Even if you are correct, and Johnny deserved to be first in the SP, it still doesn't show much of anything (to me, at least). Johnny could have come from behind, like he did at CoC -- and even if Evan had a big lead, he could have done so. It has happened before. That he didn't do it is not the fault of the USFS. The fact remains that Johnny won when he deserved to win and Evan won the one time he deserved to win.

Also that Evan got higher marks at Nats than he would at any international event is nothing new, since a great skate at Nats always gets higher marks than it would at an international event -- and CoP hasn't changed that.

Finally, would you specify what you mean by "buffing up Evan" as opposed to "slandering Johnny"?

 

[hockeyfan228]

Oh the Russians might like Johnny but that's because the Russian Federation doesn't have to really deal with him... I think that if they had to deal with Weir, well...it would be a whole different ball game.

Can you imagine the Piseev-grams on Weir were he skating for the Russian Federation?

 

[bekalc]

Can you imagine the Piseev-grams on Weir were he skating for the Russian Federation?

Yep..One week with the Russian Federation skating for Russia, and Johnny would be kicking and screaming to go back the USFSA...

 

[slutskayafan21]

Slutskayafan, I totally believe that Weir is the more talented skater. But in someways the fact that Weir is so talented is kind of what makes me admirer Lyseck.

Let me put it this way, a lot of Johnny's ooohhhh Whoa is me... I think is crap. I think the USFSA would be willing to put with quite a lot from Johnny if Johnny well was doing what he's suppose to be doing skating wise... Quite a lot. Johnny has all the talent in the world..

If Lyseck had Weir's talent, Lyseck would probably be a multi world champion by now. Which is why I refuse to feel sorry for Weir...
And this doesn't make Lyseck look bad, this makes Weir look bad.

One of the best comments I've heard in regards to Johnny is, if Johnny really wanted to emulate the Russians he would train as the Russians trained.

Oh the Russians might like Johnny but that's because the Russian Federation doesn't have to really deal with him... I think that if they had to deal with Weir, well...it would be a whole different ball game.

I'm totally glad that Weir seems to be getting his act together. Great, but let's see how long it lasts. But nope, I don't feel sorry for him.

(I also suspect if Johnny was Russian he'd be probably running around in TEAM USA shirts ,because I suspect a big part of Johnny likes to be controversial and argumentative. (I can't criticize him to much because I sometimes like to be argumentative too. Although, I wouldn't go that far...)

OK I undestand what you are saying. You think Weir has wasted his talent to a large extent, and in seeing that admire someone like Lysacek who has vastly overachieved that much more. I can understand that. Lets just hope Weir is turning the corner and that is changing. Evan will keep fighting like heck but I just cant get into his skating, everything about it, other then his obvious fighing spirit and competitive spirit, is too ordinary looking.

bekalc did you used to post on CNN gymnastics forum around 98-2001. I ask you since I remember a person who posted under a username gymn-something who was strongly partial to Chinese gymnasts. I noticed your posts on fsuniverse and you seem very partial to Chinese gymnasts (nothing wrong with that BTW), which is why I am curious. Sorry it is off topic, but since I found you here I am curious. I will probably delete it once you reply.

 

[bekalc]

bekalc did you used to post on CNN gymnastics forum around 98-2001. I ask you since I remember a person who posted under a username gymn-something who was strongly partial to Chinese gymnasts. I noticed your posts on fsuniverse and you seem very partial to Chinese gymnasts (nothing wrong with that BTW), which is why I am curious. Sorry it is off topic, but since I found you here I am curious. I will probably delete it once you reply.

I wasn't posting in gymnastics forms in that era, so no. Not me.