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- Mar 3, 2014
Agreed. More efforts are definitely needed there.
How should ISU address potentially dangerous elements?
- Thread starter el henry
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Agreed. More efforts are definitely needed there.
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- Mar 7, 2015
I am not sure though about the same logic applying to the back flip. Slower rotation is indeed with opening the position. In back flips, the position is rather open already or slightly tuck... Is it really possible to make it slower to the point of getting a head landing ? I am not sure... One could miss the impulsion and land in various ways... but it would be more like tripping...
It is not new.
Mandy Wotzel & Ingo Steuer were doing that move (video from 1998). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzPbD2I8VG4
Radka Kovarikova & Rene Novotny (video from 2000). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rrKJ-hDDoI
I believe it was forbidden at competitions.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Your English is fine. In Doctor Talk, a hemptoma is a big bruise. A contusion is a small bruise.
To me this seems so clear, and is very likely part of tthe reason why some people regard a backflip as "not really a skating move but rather an element for acrobats." Rotatining on (or above) the ice, in contrast, is right in the heart of what figure skaters do, hallowed by tradition.
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- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
The head-banger (or "bounce spin," meaning that the skaters try to create the illusion that the girl's head is in danger of being bouced off the ice with every rotation
) is a decades-old staple of Adagio Pairs performances. (In acrobatics, "adagio" refers to a couple posing in stationary balancing positions.) As Anna K mentions above it is not actually dangerous because the girl's shoulder will hit the ice before her head, plus she can protect her head with her arms if something goes awry.I would venture to guess that it was forbidden in ISU competitions so that a boy learning how to skate would not say to himself: "that looks cool -- I'm gomg to try it with my little sister."
It is heavily featured in small venues like night clubs and cruise ships because you don't need much ice to do it (unlike, you know, actually skating).
I once found myself in a tiny night club in Paris, where the stage was maybe 8 feet by 8 feet. One of the acts was a father-daughter roller skating team. The act consisted of the performers holding two hands facing each other, then spinning around like that until they worked up enough angular velocity to do a headbager or Detroiter or rotational lift.
The Detoiter, in which the woman is held over the man's head parallel to the ice while he spins -- like a well-choreographed preofessional wrestler spinning his victim overhead before executing the body slam -- was named after the Detroiter airplane (the girl is the propeller), manufactured in the 1930s. It was famous for being the first passenger plane that featured a heated cockpit.
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- Joined
- Jan 28, 2013
I know people get snippy about staying on topic, but I absolutely love the tangents we can go on. Where else would I know how the Detroiter was named? I always assumed somebody from Detroit first did the move. And now I know what plane had the first heated cockpit.
I think we should have a "Thread Drift Allowed" rule for non-competition threads that go longer than three pages. But maybe since it is already the custom, a rule is unnecessary.
I think we should have a "Thread Drift Allowed" rule for non-competition threads that go longer than three pages. But maybe since it is already the custom, a rule is unnecessary.
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- Oct 22, 2022
I've been doing those for fun or in a show program since I was a teenager, waaaaay into, um, middle age, and never hit the ice once. In a headbanger, I extend my arms straight up with my elbows just behind my ears and hands touching. If I did brush the ice, it would be with my hands and forearms. Never happened yet, though. The only problem I have with a headbanger in a supine position is getting dizzy looking up at the ceiling. Takes a few seconds after the spin stops before the rink stops going round and roundThe head-banger (or "bounce spin," meaning that the skaters try to create the illusion that the girl's head is in danger of being bouced off the ice with every rotation
I would venture to guess that it was forbidden in ISU competitions so that a boy learning how to skate would not say to himself: "that looks cool -- I'm gomg to try it with my little sister."
It is heavily featured in small venues like night clubs and cruise ships because you don't need much ice to do it (unlike, you know, actually skating).
I once found myself in a tiny night club in Paris, where the stage was maybe 8 feet by 8 feet. One of the acts was a father-daughter roller skating team. The act consisted of the performers holding two hands facing each other, then spinning around like that until they worked up enough angular velocity to do a headbager or Detroiter or rotational lift.
The Detoiter, in which the woman is held over the man's head paralle to the ice while he spins -- like a well-choreographer preofessional wrestler spinning his victim overhead before executing the body slam -- was named after the Detroiter airplane (the girl is the propeller), manufactured in the 1930s. It was famous for being the first passenger plane that featured a heated cockpit.
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I know headbanger is not new, but thought the other move you were describing (where the woman is straight upside down and the man revolves slowly) is newer (or at least not as common). Do your videos show that move? The W/S one shows the headbanger.
The head-banger (or "bounce spin," meaning that the skaters try to create the illusion that the girl's head is in danger of being bouced off the ice with every rotation
The illusion works too well for me to not feel queasy watching the move. Glad to know it isn't as dangerous as it appears. In the on-ice-perspective slow-mo video, she has her arms down at her hips, so I don't think they would protect her head in any way.
I am a doctor.
In my work at Inpatient and Outpatient Rehabilitation we use haematoma for the description even if the size of skin with color change is small (we write small haematoma or more precise we write how big is it in centimeters).
Because judging the size of bleeding based on skin marks...if bleeding is in deeper tissues, the color of skin can be normal in the beginning or there can be small marks only.
(We work with many patients after hip / knee replacements where bleeding in deep tissues is expected. Patients come with – let‘s say 3 bruises not more than 4x4cm on lower extremity – after 3 to 4 days it changes into haematomas on whole surface of posterior part of thigh and half of calf. Those haematomas are not new, they were there since the beginning just not visible as marks on skin.)
Contusion is used for injury of soft tissues – the direct blow to some body part. One of consequences of contusion can be bruise or haematoma, but some contusions don‘t have even one of those, just swelling.
Different country means different terms visibly.
I meant it like examples of changing the speed of rotation.
I think there are more things skater needs to do wrightly to get the right height and speed of rotation. If one or more things are done wrongly trouble come.
If we look at video of back flips: Adam, Brian Orser, Nathan and Keegan.
https://files.fm/u/jk72pqfxc9
(Most of videos taken from Figure Skating Fan channel - https://youtu.be/6nZZ8R3ytqw?si=lmUDgOAZsEr2rX8p )
They have a little bit different technique - for example leading of upper arms, spine lordosis.
After take off Adam and Brian Orser are creating lordosis in spine which Nathan does not have at all, Kevin creates minimal lordosis.
During rotation Adam puts upper arms to the front which protects him. In case of bigger underrotation he would fall on his hands and knees first.
Brian Orser starts with upper arms in front of his body then alongside his body and in front of his body again before landing. It it less safe option in my opinion.
Nathan has leading of upper arms closer to Brian Orser but mention how relaxed his upper arms are in the second part of the rotation - in case of fall - his arms would not absorb all power and he would hit the ice with chest and face.
Kevin's upper arms - Brian Orser.
All men start with open hip position BUT in the second part of the rotation they do flexion in hip joint which helps them to land on feet. (This is what @Anna K. and @adhara speak about when they point out that you must always land on your feet.)
If you look at video of fails:
WARNING - watching not suitable for kids or sensitive persons.
https://youtu.be/uEOikkb55VY?si=wZI8Oc2NCBZ95pR7
Mention that attempts number 3 and 5 present perfectly how is it possible to jump and slower or "stop" in rotating and fall not on your feet.
(I am no way back flip specialist, I just compare it with skaters above.)
Fail number 3 - boy is not strengthened, he starts with dynamic take off (no symmetry in the air), but leading of arms is wrong = not helping with rotation AND flexion in hip joints in the second part of the rotation is not done at all. He underrotates and fell on upper chest shoulders including and face.
Fail number 5 - after take off he creates spine lordosis for a moment. But he immediately does big hip joint flexion and goes into spine kyphosis. His timing of open hip followed by flexion in hip is wrong - it comes to soon. Also spine kyphosis is completely wrong. This behaviour almost completely stops rotation and he falls on back and head.
Both boys are probably doing many more mistakes which back flip specialist would see immediately.
I don't remember that I would be describing any lift, especially not lift with lady being with her head down.
https://youtu.be/G3LdYzRdHK8?si=u3tRs7SArwNyJRxx - Valentina Marchei & Ondrej Hotarek at gala in 2018
Do you mean this lift? At 2:50. (There is also another variant of holding lady's ankles / calves with lady's head down at 0:47.)
https://youtu.be/Fs-4EIqStI4?si=B1v4S8Cyu3-DLm8A - Isabelle Brasseur & Lloyd Eisler at gala in 2004
Lift at 2:10.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Was the other move the first position in this video? This is from 1931 and shows variations on the headbanger that were en vogue then for skating acrobats.
The Whirligig (1931)
"Now is the time when the skater abroad comes into his own - and strange capers are cut on the ice -" L/S of skating couple on a large outdoor skating rink....
youtu.be
I think no question a somersault on ice is far more dangerous than a quad toe. A quad toe if it goes wrong it could be a twisted ankle, a heavy fall on the butt, however these are injuries that skaters can suffer attempting any type of jump. For some skaters attempting a 4T is not more difficult than another attempting a 3Lz. Not to mention the skater is not just landing on their body attempting a regulation jump, the foot will hit the ice first lessening much of the impact when the body does hit the ice. Also a lot of jump injuries seem to be from years of repetition, but this is like any sport. The baseball pitcher might need Tommy John surgery, tennis player with back/elbow injuries, these are sports less traumatic than figure skating.
But if a somersault on ice goes wrong you are landing on your knees, hands, elbow, face, head, neck. Rather than a glancing fall at speed, it is potentially heavy blunt force trauma, and for what I ask? The ISU is now actively encourage children to learn this dangerous element advocating it as a legitimate part of program. I think it is madness. I think they will reverse course after an inevitable string of entirely preventable injuries.
Plus it contradicts this new mandate of lowering jumping content to encourage more pure skating. A backflip isn't skating, it is a circus trick. I would rather see 7 jumps than 6 jumps and a circus trick.
It is a sport being pulled in many directions, does not know what it wants to be.
But if a somersault on ice goes wrong you are landing on your knees, hands, elbow, face, head, neck. Rather than a glancing fall at speed, it is potentially heavy blunt force trauma, and for what I ask? The ISU is now actively encourage children to learn this dangerous element advocating it as a legitimate part of program. I think it is madness. I think they will reverse course after an inevitable string of entirely preventable injuries.
Plus it contradicts this new mandate of lowering jumping content to encourage more pure skating. A backflip isn't skating, it is a circus trick. I would rather see 7 jumps than 6 jumps and a circus trick.
It is a sport being pulled in many directions, does not know what it wants to be.
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2024
I know what you meant. You're still wrong. Not every fall will lead to a bruise. We know how to fall safely. Skaters rarely get bruises from falling on jumps. Most bruises come from fluke falls. Not falls on jumps or tricks.
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2014
Every skater gets bruises, even from their planned, controlled, and coached falls (that's not some elite skater trick, everyone who takes LTS One knows how to fall).
And they get bruises.
ETA: Every athlete in every sport gets bruises. I ran, I had plenty of bruises. Now, we can say, ho ho ho, we're high level athletes (I never was) and bruises don't stop us, and that's fine. But to say that skaters aren't getting bruises on falls, "fluke" or otherwise? Nope.
Also, the fact that it is common doesn't take away from the serious nature of constant bruising and serious bruising created by falls from skating elements. Should we do anything? And when? I don't know, that's the question.
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- Joined
- Oct 22, 2022
I've done all the variations on adagio moves shown in both videos, except for the K/N one where she's upside down behind his head and they both let go. I can't figure out if she's gripping his head with her legs...? I don't think I'd want to try that one on the ice, but the others? We were taught them for fun as teenagers in the 1970s by a coach who'd been a show skater in the 1950s, so they've been around for a long time.
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- Oct 22, 2022
I bruise very easily. It's something that runs in my family. But I've fallen on jump and throw landings countless times without a mark. On the ice, at least, where you slide on the thin film of water. Roller skating is another matter.
Worst bruise I ever had was just catching a rut while doing crossovers at high speed, holding my partner's hand. He didn't have time to let go and I whapped down sideways on my hip and got dragged along the ice until he could put the brakes on. A week later I had a wide band of black bruising on the side of the thigh, that had gradually spread, thanks to gravity, from the hip down to the knee. My kids were very impressed by its progress, as was my adult ballet class as they tracked that bruise daily crawling down under my pink tights
. Didn't impede movement, though, and didn't hurt after the first day.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
The reason that these adagio moves do not seem to me to be so dangerous is that they are basically stationary on the ice. That is. the man stands in one place -- possibly on both feet -- and rotates in place. I have never tried pairs skating 
but IMHO the most impressive and scariest skill is keeping your partner/center of gravity over your skates at all times and at all costs. (First, second, and third rule of pairs skating: Don't drop your partner, don't drop your partner, and don't drop your partner.)
How many men would dare to skate across a frozen pond while balancing a 45-kilo weight at full extension over your head? How many women would bet life and limb that you could do it without disastrous mishap?
but IMHO the most impressive and scariest skill is keeping your partner/center of gravity over your skates at all times and at all costs. (First, second, and third rule of pairs skating: Don't drop your partner, don't drop your partner, and don't drop your partner.)How many men would dare to skate across a frozen pond while balancing a 45-kilo weight at full extension over your head? How many women would bet life and limb that you could do it without disastrous mishap?
I was talking about the move at 2:50 in the M/H video. Though Valentina's back is quite arched, and some skaters do it with a straighter back, that's the one! I thought a poster (possibly you, possibly someone else), thought it was called a head-banger. So I posted a video of a head-banger to show what it looks like (and the difference).
Does anyone know if the move (at 2:50 in M/H video) has a name?
