ISU Congress: Age limit to gradually increase to 17

[lariko]

Maybe I loose something in traslation, but are you saying that Akatieva and Muravyeva are on the same level?

No, I am saying Murav’yeva is better subjective opinion and all that. I know that Akatyeva lands 3A-3T sometimes, but other than that, I never really saw her as memorable. Murav’yeva just blows my mind away with her packaging. I literally sit breathless till that final shot in her skate, it is like watching a story unfold. And, her 3A gotta be the prettiest 3A I had seen, like a feather.

In the end of the day, with or without Akat’yeva, Russian women would imo always be present in top three if allowed to compete. Since this age ban is at least partially due to Valieva and Trusova at the Olympics, Akat’yeva can send her gratitude where it’s due. With Tutberidze who mismanages her skaters and Russian legal team that used Valieva’s age to make a farce out of Olympic figure skating.

 

[el henry]

I agree with Kaitlyn Weaver's response to Tara:

 

[mrrice]

I agree with Kaitlyn Weaver's answer. Look, I have been in the performing arts for 50 years!! I have been auditioning since I was 8 years old. The things I would say to a rude, or lascivious person at 17 are far and away from my 8-14 year old self. At 17, I would have said "Back Off You Perv!" but, at 14, you just want to make everyone happy and avoid causing a problem. It may take some getting used to but, I think this is a wise decision.

 

[Portugalskaya]

I've been watching figure skating for over 8 years and I've been waiting for the change for just as long. But now I'm disappointed.

1. This will not solve the problem of abuse. People of abusive nature never view themselves in such light: for them their behavior is totally normal. The only two ways abuse can be stopped are 1) reflecting an athlete's faults in their scores (let's call out all the wrong edges and poor skating skills) and 2) using federations to address these problems to coaches. If a coach can't train a student without making them anorectic (or anything else), they shouldn't be allowed near athletes. No matter the age.

2. If we look below 10th place, we'll find out that a lot of people representing small federations are, in fact, 15-17 year old. For many of them high level competitions are a chance to show themselves, get to know other competitors etc etc and then when they hit puberty retire because figure skating becomes too much. Let's face it: if we embrace all of the figure skating and not only the elite part, the majority of skaters are very young and stop skating when still being teens. Why punish them and not allow them to compete?

 

[lariko]

This is no doubt and argument in favour of raising the age (I am in favour too), what I don't agree is not making a progressive process includind skaters that have been trained with the old senior age as a career objective and expectation.
More care should have been reserved to skater that were just one and two year away from senior as a respect for theyr hard work.

There are very few of those tbh, vs many. The needs of many outweigh the needs of the few. There is no tragedy in that decision at all. Junior competitions are awesome. They'll skate in juniors building up rep until they are of age. Delayed gratification for the win. Fans will be overjoyed to greet them on their seniors debuts.

 

[McBibus]

There are very few of those tbh, vs many. The needs of many outweigh the needs of the few. There is no tragedy in that decision at all. Junior competitions are awesome. They'll skate in juniors building up rep until they are of age. Delayed gratification for the win. Fans will be overjoyed to greet them on their seniors debuts.

how exactly taking care on the "few" in a borderline situation would impact the "many" that would pass at 17 no matter if a all in one or a progressive road to 17 is choosen?
Would it be a problem for a 09/10 skater is a skater born in 07/08 pass 2023 instead of 2025 and a skater born 08/09 pass 2024 or 2025 instead of 2026? It's not.

 

[lariko]

how exactly taking care on the "few" in a borderline situation would impact the "many" that would pass at 17 no matter if a all in one or a progressive road to 17 is choosen?
Would it be a problem for a 09/10 skater is a skater born in 07/08 pass 2023 instead of 2025 and a skater born 08/09 pass 2024 or 2025 instead of 2026? It's not.

Right, but that's meddling with cut-offs to suit specific skaters. Like, why? Cut-off for everyone has always been July 1, in Juniors and Seniors. That's what it remains. That's when FS season starts.

It's inevitable that with all the sports with the cut off dates that the date of birth predicts performance to a degree. There are advantages to be born in a specific month of the year, because coaches inevitably pick based on that and the performance appears better in a peer group (depending on the specifics of the sport). The figure skating careers are on the short side into the later teens. So, watch juniors. That's where the action is going to be for women, with only the tail end of the best performance captured in seniors. The competitions are only as prestigious as the fans make them. Watch juniors and win at life. Akat'yeva will be fine and will either make it or not. That's how it is.

 

[el henry]

I've been watching figure skating for over 8 years and I've been waiting for the change for just as long. But now I'm disappointed.

1. This will not solve the problem of abuse. People of abusive nature never view themselves in such light: for them their behavior is totally normal. The only two ways abuse can be stopped are 1) reflecting an athlete's faults in their scores (let's call out all the wrong edges and poor skating skills) and 2) using federations to address these problems to coaches. If a coach can't train a student without making them anorectic (or anything else), they shouldn't be allowed near athletes. No matter the age.

2. If we look below 10th place, we'll find out that a lot of people representing small federations are, in fact, 15-17 year old. For many of them high level competitions are a chance to show themselves, get to know other competitors etc etc and then when they hit puberty retire because figure skating becomes too much. Let's face it: if we embrace all of the figure skating and not only the elite part, the majority of skaters are very young and stop skating when still being teens. Why punish them and not allow them to compete?

Very thoughtful post, thank you for sharing. If I might point out a different way of looking at it:

1. No one who I know thinks of this as a "quick fix" or a "one and done".

We still have much to do with confronting abuse and addressing judging. This is a first, necessary step, but hopefully not the last one.

2. The small federations themselves were in favor of the motion. Ireland, for example, gave an impassioned speech in favor. With only 16 votes against, clearly many small feds were in favor.

So they do not see it as "punishing" their skaters, but rather, the purpose of the motion, to protect them. And keep them skating way past puberty.

 

[mrrice]

I'm reading so many attacks on Russia. I get it but, this is something that should be placed in the lap of Eteri. IMO, these skaters who appear and accomplish amazing things, and then, they seem to disappear. When was the last time, if ever, has Eteri had a skater like Maria Butyrskaya. A mature and beautiful woman in her 20's.

 

[Amei]

I'm reading so many attacks on Russia. I get it but, this is something that should be placed in the lap of Eteri. IMO, these skaters who appear and accomplish amazing things, and then, they seem to disappear. When was the last time, if ever, has Eteri had a skater like Maria Butyrskaya. A mature and beautiful woman in her 20's.

They disappear because the ISU limits the number of athletes a country can send for international competitions and they get surpassed technically by other skaters in Russia. Zagitova would have been the top athlete from any country besides Russia and maybe Japan (though Japan I think she would have been top 3 still), her last year competing but in Russia she was going to be at best fourth at Nationals and maybe third if she skated lights out since Trusova had a very bad FS, but fourth means no Europeans or Worlds. Having won everything or most everything and been to the top tier competitions its probably very difficult to continue a very taxing training schedule knowing your highlight international competition is the Grand Prix Final and then eventually only Challengers and lower tiered competitions - especially when Russia has skating shows and other commercial opportunities that is certainly less taxing and pays better than competitions for skaters.

 

[mrrice]

They disappear because the ISU limits the number of athletes a country can send for international competitions and they get surpassed technically by other skaters in Russia. Zagitova would have been the top athlete from any country besides Russia and maybe Japan (though Japan I think she would have been top 3 still), her last year competing but in Russia she was going to be at best fourth at Nationals and maybe third if she skated lights out since Trusova had
a very bad FS, but fourth means no Europeans or Worlds. Having won everything or most everything and been to the top tier competitions its probably very difficult to continue a very taxing training schedule knowing your highlight international competition is the Grand Prix Final and then eventually only Challengers and lower tiered competitions - especially when Russia has skating shows and other commercial opportunities that is certainly less taxing and pays better than competitions for skaters.

What I mean is how did Yulia Lipnitskaya win so many events and then drop completely off the map before she turned 18. Zagitova was the same way. What is burning these beautiful young skaters out before they turn 18. Zagitova could have been the next Katerina Witt but, she seemed to disappear after her Olympic Win.

 

[Amei]

What I mean is how did Yulia Lipnitskaya win so many events and then drop completely off the map before she turned 18. Zagitova was the same way. What is burning these beautiful young skaters out before they turn 18. Zagitova could have been the next Katerina Witt but, she seemed to disappear after her Olympic Win.

They were surpassed by Russians that were better than them, and they decided to not try and get elements that would have put them on equal level. Lipnitskaia had drop off due to the fact she was probably dealing with malnutrition from an eating disorder but also Radionova & Medvedeva came onto the circuit, Tutkamysheva re-emerged and all were doing much better than her; Lipnitskaia once she realized that she had a problem sought help and decided retiring was the best thing for her. Zagitova is still skating, she's just not doing competitions any longer; look at 2019-2020, she still finished in the top 3 at her GP events and qualified for the Final. And she wouldn't have been Katarina Witt, without a quad or triple axel her best hopes were going to be to hang around the GP series for maybe a couple of years before she wasn't going to get those assignments any longer, but Euros/Worlds/Olympics, she would have been dependent on someone with quads/triple axels have very bad skates at Nationals and perhaps even that might not have gotten her assignments to those bigger competitions. And its gotta be very hard for skaters who have went to and won the big competitions to look at a demanding training schedule and know the best they will probably get competition-wise is some senior Bs and reassess if they want to continue competing. Zagitova appears to have decided it would be better to do commercial skating opportunities where its not necessary to have those difficult elements

 

[el henry]

What I mean is how did Yulia Lipnitskaya win so many events and then drop completely off the map before she turned 18. Zagitova was the same way. What is burning these beautiful young skaters out before they turn 18. Zagitova could have been the next Katerina Witt but, she seemed to disappear after her Olympic Win.

Mr Rice, Irina Rodnina agrees with you.

“They kill figure skating. All this is directed against our amazingly successful team and especially against the girls.” Russian coaches about ISU decisions

The International Skating Union (ISU) has extended the suspension of Russian athletes from international competitions and adopted the proposal of gradual raising the age minimum. Comments from Russian coaches

fs-gossips.com

Everything is possible. Russian figure skaters won medals in theirs almost 30 years. Why do we forget Masha Butyrskaya? Our first world champion.
Why are you so focused on these 15 years? What is this, a disaster? This is a disaster only for children who, after 15 years, do not know what to do.
It seems to me that this will bring a little more health in terms of athletes and these completely unnecessary conversations.

Many of the other Russian officials and coaches quoted in the article repeat the conspiracy theory happy hoo-hah, but I am pleasantly surprised by Rodnina's and Bestiamanova's reaction.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

If a promising junior skater's career were to be ruined by this rule change, it implies that even under the status quo their senior career (or its peak) wouldn't last more than 2 years (difference between old and new age limit).

The argument 'it's a tragedy for Skater X' hinges on the strength of the claim 'Skater X will deteriorate by age 17'. An odd expectation for supposedly exceptional talents.

 

[Lurker11]

Russian female careers only end early because there's intense competition for three spots. 7/8 female skaters in the world a Russian.

Whereas if you are from a relatively weak country like the US you can skate into your mid 20's like Mariah Bell and Karen Chen since there's no competition. Maya Khromykh is a far superior skater to both of them and she's fighting to stay around the top 6 in Russia.

So there's plenty of justification for Russian females giving up at 18-19 because they competition is so intense if you want to skate internationally. For American skaters there is no such competition.

Really people should be focusing on why Liu quit so early when she's under no real pressure skating for the US. Must be something that went on behind the scenes to cause such psychological distress. Hopefully they get to the bottom of it.

 

[Amei]

If a promising junior skater's career were to be ruined by this rule change, it implies that even under the status quo their senior career (or its peak) wouldn't last more than 2 years (difference between old and new age limit).

The argument 'it's a tragedy for Skater X' hinges on the strength of the claim 'Skater X will deteriorate by age 17'. An odd expectation for supposedly exceptional talents.

figure skating is an expensive sport, juniors probably get minimal sponsorships and those deals probably show up a year or 2 before they turn senior from companies hoping to be attached to a new senior star. So that promising 13/14 year old might not be a good sponsorship investment when they are 3-4 years away from seniors. How many skaters aren't going to be able to be able to stay in a very expensive sport with a longer period of no sponsors?

 

[lariko]

They will manage the same way men do. Men rarely go into seniors before 17. They cope in the same very expensive sport. Russian men cope with a fraction of funding that goes to Russian women. And, lo and behold, the depth is deep.

That the risk of sounding like a broken record, fans need attitude adjustment to stop ignoring junior sports. If a skater, male or female, is supported by fans in juniors, they will come out into seniors with both sponsorships and start power.

The same Akat’yeva actually needs those 2 years now, thanks to the ban on Russians, to get all the junior titles and solidify her grip…if she has it in her.

So, support junior athlets, peeps, go to junior comps for fun and profit, and you will have your senior stars just fine. Plus, give late bloomers some credit. They may surprise you.

@mrrice there are lots and lots of Russian women who skate past 18. They are represented in Cup of Russia and smaller competitions. They don’t and can’t make international stage, but they skate. As for Zagitova’s disappearance I can connect you to my mom, who complains regularly that if she sees any more Zagitova on YouTube, she is going to scream. My mom and AI algorithm are not the best of friends, lol. But the fact is, Zagitova is every where in figureskating cloud in Russia. Everywhere… I think last I heard, she considered becoming a member of Russian Duma as a politician.

 

[macy]

the whataboutism in this thread is incredible.

 

[Amei]

the whataboutism in this thread is incredible.

Its speculation just like its speculation that changing the senior eligibility age will do anything to protect athletes

 

[el henry]

figure skating is an expensive sport, juniors probably get minimal sponsorships and those deals probably show up a year or 2 before they turn senior from companies hoping to be attached to a new senior star. So that promising 13/14 year old might not be a good sponsorship investment when they are 3-4 years away from seniors. How many skaters aren't going to be able to be able to stay in a very expensive sport with a longer period of no sponsors?

99 percent of them do in the US and in other countries.

The men do it. Figure skating is just as expensive for men.

Figure skating is not one discipline and not one country. Thank Ford, it should be for everyone.