ISU Congress: Age limit to gradually increase to 17

[McBibus]

At least some countries were thinking rationally, instead to think with their emotions (based on what we like and what we don't like).

Thinking with emotion is thinking with your hearth.
They thinked and acted with a much lover part of their body.

I'm generally in favour of raising the age but the way it is done is as much important and it's been done with a total indifference for the skaters that where due to be senior in 23/24.

The "Akatieva case" is important not just because the best junior in the world will miss the deadline by mere days for 3 consecutive years (rules do not deal with single cases) but because being akatieva the absolute abuse of the rule over the career of any skaters born in late 2007 would be crystal clear to anybody before the votation.
There is no "we've been over emotional and did not do the math", they knew Sofia and any skater in her situation will miss the cut for 3 consecutive years but they just did not care.
While the were crusading to protect the skaters and the sport they willingly put some skaters in a horrible situation.

22/23 and 23/24 - 15 y/o
24/25 and 25/26 - 16 y/o
26/27 - 17 y/o

was it so difficult?
Personally I would have used that model to reach 18 y/o progressively

Results (note 06/07 means born between jul 2006 and jun 2007)
OLD NEW MY
22 06/07 06/07 06/07
23 07/08 06/07 07/08
24 08/09 06/07 07/08
25 09/10 07/08 08/09
26 10/11 08/09 08/09

we will be aligned just one year later but we would have progressively moved to senior skater who were born and trained under the old system.
It was not difficult guys.
You just have to think about skater that trained their whole life to be senior in one or two year, and were already frunstrated by missing the cut because there were born in the second half of the year and give them a chance to fulfill their goal while raising the minimum age,

Done like that is once again just politics with total indifference for the skaters.
ISU is not for skater: it's for federation.
Even when talkin about "skaters wellbeing" they can't see the skaters


P.S.: if it's so important to be "on age" by 25/26 just introduce an official grandfathering program for deserving skaters (minum TES) missing the deadline by few months.
That would be easy too... all that it was needed was to care for skater who worked their asses of for years and expected to be senior soon

 

[Baron Vladimir]

When i used word 'rational', i was thinking about using knowledge from biological, cognitive and social science. According to that majority of process in human body regarding development are done till the age of 16, that is approximately the number when puberty ends. Till 17 human may be dealing with the growing spurt, especially guys, but the main process is over. Thats why i agree with the people at the congress who was talking that the right age to compete as seniors should be 16 (for the women at least, and with men it can be 17).

 

[macy]

Thinking with emotion is thinking with your hearth.
They thinked and acted with a much lover part of their body.

I'm generally in favour of raising the age but the way it is done is as much important and it's been done with a total indifference for the skaters that where due to be senior in 23/24.

The "Akatieva case" is important not just because the best junior in the world will miss the deadline by mere days for 3 consecutive years (rules do not deal with single cases) but because being akatieva the absolute abuse of the rule over the career of any skaters born in late 2007 would be crystal clear to anybody before the votation.
There is no "we've been over emotional and did not do the math", they knew Sofia and any skater in her situation will miss the cut for 3 consecutive years but they just did not care.
While the were crusading to protect the skaters and the sport they willingly put some skaters in a horrible situation.

22/23 and 23/24 - 15 y/o
24/25 and 25/26 - 16 y/o
26/27 - 17 y/o

was it so difficult?
Personally I would have used that model to reach 18 y/o progressively

Results (note 06/07 means born between jul 2006 and jun 2007)
OLD NEW MY
22 06/07 06/07 06/07
23 07/08 06/07 07/08
24 08/09 06/07 07/08
25 09/10 07/08 08/09
26 10/11 08/09 08/09

we will be aligned just one year later but we would have progressively moved to senior skater who were born and trained under the old system.
It was not difficult guys.
You just have to think about skater that trained their whole life to be senior in one or two year, and were already frunstrated by missing the cut because there were born in the second half of the year and give them a chance to fulfill their goal while raising the minimum age,

Done like that is once again just politics with total indifference for the skaters.
ISU is not for skater: it's for federation.
Even when talkin about "skaters wellbeing" they can't see the skaters


P.S.: if it's so important to be "on age" by 25/26 just introduce an official grandfathering program for deserving skaters (minum TES) missing the deadline by few months.
That would be easy too... all that it was needed was to care for skater who worked their asses of for years and expected to be senior soon

unfortunately no matter what, someone was always going to get the sh*t end of the stick, and in this case it was Akatieva. If they would have done it any other way, there would be other skaters who were unlucky. i feel sorry for her, but unfortunately it is what it is and somebody was going to get screwed either way.

 

[Zora]

Both Mao Asada and Yuna Kim were 19 at their first Olympics and they couldn't compete at the age of 15 despite being technically better than any of the top three at the Olympics. Akatieva is of course unlucky the changes happen right before she could skate at her first senior competitions, but at least she can still go to her first Olympics I think? And her toughest competitions are in her home country anyway, so at least she will have enough experience with pressure before her first senior season.

 

[McBibus]

unfortunately no matter what, someone was always going to get the sh*t end of the stick, and in this case it was Akatieva. If they would have done it any other way, there would be other skaters who were unlucky. i feel sorry for her, but unfortunately it is what it is and somebody was going to get screwed either way.

No Macy:
in a progressive way or with a grandfathering program nobody goes from missed the deadline for consecutive years.
Sofia (late 2007) should way a year and fo senior 2023 instead of 2025
Late 2008 will (previously due in 2024) will pass in 2025 instead of 2026
Yougers will have to wait more of course but they will be fully trained in the new system.
you can ask a skater who had to wait a year to have another year of patience not 3

They move the age 3 years in block because noone who misses thys year will be able to progressively enter senior during the "aging" period.
That simply and plainly stupid and uncaring.
They could talk a bit more and find a better solution instead of that "in favour or against without compromise".

@Zora who cares about the olympics.
The problem is exactly that skating revolves around olympics and not around itself.
Why they should stop at that non sense age of 17 when 18is the adult age in most of the world?
Because it is the olympic year of course and if they need some new blood the 2006/2007 skaters will be there to provide it

 

[macy]

why would they grandfather her or anyone else in when she's still ineligible for senior even next season? this is why they left the age alone for a year as to not screw anyone trying to move up next season. why would they purposely extend that or give a pass for one junior level skater who won't hit senior for two more years?

they can't cater to one skater and form the entire rule around her career trajectory not to mention she represents a country that isn't even eligible to compete currently.

 

[Lurker11]

The rule has been brought in to stop Akatieva from cleaning up over the next 4 years.

7 of the top 8 female skaters on the planet are Russian. This causes a lot of jealousy and resentment.

Akatieva is the best junior talent in the world, but the new rule punishes her the most. This is by design. It would have been a case of Akatieva and Kamila swapping gold and silver between themselves for the next 4 years.

In what other sport would they bring in a new rule based on arbitrary age limits and allow that rule to punish brightest talent the most and for the longest period. It's cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Wouldn't they just look at it at logically and say Akatieva is the best junior on the planet, either move the date to July 10th for the next few years before reverting to July 1st, or just give her a waiver. We're not talking the 100th best junior skater in the world, it's the number one junior skater. It's a total stitch up.

So clearly it's by design to stop a Russian dominating because if an American was the clear best junior in the world and the new arbitrary rule denied them from competing for a further 3 years because they missed the cut off by 7 days, they'd make sure the new rule doesn't affect the skater or give a waiver.

 

[el henry]

I doubt Eric Radford cares about the looming success of Akatieva, and I doubt he is “afraid” or jealous of her. Yet he made one of the most impassioned speeches in favor of the motion.

I don’t know this skater, have never seen her skate, and could not pick her out of a lineup (my loss, I am sure). Since she is that good, when she is 17, she will be even better, and may she have a long and successful career!

 

[Zora]

They move the age 3 years in block because noone who misses thys year will be able to progressively enter senior during the "aging" period.
That simply and plainly stupid and uncaring.

They could have simply raised the age limit in one step, but then some skaters would have to go back to juniors. So I think they were actually caring?

The rule has been brought in to stop Akatieva from cleaning up over the next 4 years.

Because Russia doesn't have enough talented skaters? There will still be Shcherbakova, Trusova, Valieva, Tuktamysheva, Kostornaia etc. the next seasons, all of them could win Worlds.

@Zora who cares about the olympics.

I don't, but unlike Olympics she has many Worlds ahead of her and doesn't miss "her" first Olympics, so it could have been worse.

 

[Jontor]

Changes in medals since 1990 - if this would have been the rule all along

Olympics:

1992 - Yamaguchi, Ito, Kerrigan --> no change
1994 - Baiul, Kerrigan, Chen --> Kerrigan, Bonaly (4), Sato (5)
1998 - Lipinski, Kwan, Chen --> Chen, Butyrskaya (4), Slutskaya (5)
2002 - Hughes, Slutskaya, Kwan --> Slutskaya, Kwan, Suguri (5) (Cohen at 4 also missed out)
2006 - Arakawa, Cohen, Slutskaya --> no change
2010 - Kim, Asada, Rochette --> no change
2014 - Sotnikova, Kim, Kostner --> Kim, Kostner, Gold (4) (Sotnikova would have missed the cut-off with one day)
2018 - Zagitova, Medvedeva, Osmond --> Medvedeva, Osmond, Miyahara (4)
2022 - Shcherbakova, Trusova, Sakamoto --> no change

Worlds:

1990 - Trenary, Ito, Cook --> no change
1991 - Yamaguchi, Harding, Kerrigan --> no change
1992 - Yamaguchi, Kerrigan, Chen --> Yamaguchi, Kerrigan, Hubert (4)
1993 - Baiul, Bonaly, Chen --> Bonaly, Sato (4), Kerrigan (5)
1994 - Sato, Bonaly, Szewczenko --> Sato, Bonaly, Kielmann (4)
1995 - Chen, Bonaly, Bobek --> Chen, Bonaly, Markova (5) (Kwan at 4 also missed out)
1996 - Kwan, Chen, Slutskaya --> Chen, Butyrskaya (4), Bonaly (5)
1997 - Lipinski, Kwan, Gusmeroli --> Gusmeroli, Slutskaya (4), Butyrskaya (5)
1998 - Kwan, Slutskaya, Butyrskaya --> Slutskaya, Butyrskaya, Hubert (4)
1999 - Butyrskaya, Kwan, Soldatova --> no change
2000 - Kwan, Slutskaya, Butyrskaya --> no change
2001 - Kwan, Slutskaya, Hughes --> Kwan, Slutskaya, Butyrskaya (4)
2002 - Slutskaya, Kwan, Suguri --> no change
2003 - Kwan, Sokolova, Suguri --> no change
2004 - Arakawa, Cohen, Kwan --> no change
2005 - Slutskaya, Cohen, Kostner --> no change
2006 - Meissner, Suguri, Cohen --> Suguri, Cohen, Sokolova (4)
2007 - Ando, Asada, Kim --> Ando, Nakano (5), Kostner (6) (Meissner at 4 also missed out)
2008 - Asada, Kostner, Kim --> Kostner, Nakato (4), Rochette (5)
2009 - Kim, Rochette, Ando --> no change
2010 - Asada, Kim, Lepistö --> no change
2011 - Ando, Kim, Kostner --> no change
2012 - Kostner, Leonova, Suzuki --> no change
2013 - Kim, Kostner, Asada --> no change
2014 - Asada, Lipnitskaya, Kostner --> Asada, Kostner, Gold (5) (Pogorilaya at 4 also missed out)
2015 - Tuktamysheva, Miyahara, Radionova --> Tuktamysheva, Gold (4), Wagner (5)
2016 - Medvedeva, Wagner, Pogorilaya --> Wagner, Pogorilaya, Gold (4)
2017 - Medvedeva, Osmond, Daleman --> Osmond, Daleman, Kostner (6) (Chen at 4 and Mihara at 5 also missed out)
2018 - Osmond, Higuchi, Miyahara --> Osmond, Miyahara, Kostner (4)
2019 - Zagitova, Tursynbaeva, Medvedeva --> Tursynbaeva, Medvedeva, Sakamoto (5) (Kihira at 4 also missed out)
2021 - Shcherbakova, Tuktamysheva, Trusova --> Tuktamysheva, Chen (4), Hendrickx (5)
2022 - Sakamoto, Hendrickx, Liu --> Sakamoto, Hendrickx, Bell (4)

Of course it is totally bonkers to make this adjustment. Countries would have sent different skaters that could have medalled instead. Russia, for example, had a lot to choose from in the 90s and 10s-20s.

Nevertheless, interesting that the US ladies seems to be the biggest losers here.

 

[el henry]

Changes in medals since 1990 - if this would have been the rule all along

...




Nevertheless, interesting that the US ladies seems to be the biggest losers here.

Exactly.

Yet more support, in my opinion, to show that the motion was not directed to one country, one discipline, or any motive other than the health and welfare of skaters.

That has been my motive, and I believe ISU delegates and others when they say it is their motive.

 

[Amei]

Changes in medals since 1990 - if this would have been the rule all along

Olympics:

1992 - Yamaguchi, Ito, Kerrigan --> no change
1994 - Baiul, Kerrigan, Chen --> Kerrigan, Bonaly (4), Sato (5)
1998 - Lipinski, Kwan, Chen --> Chen, Butyrskaya (4), Slutskaya (5)
2002 - Hughes, Slutskaya, Kwan --> Slutskaya, Kwan, Suguri (5) (Cohen at 4 also missed out)
2006 - Arakawa, Cohen, Slutskaya --> no change
2010 - Kim, Asada, Rochette --> no change
2014 - Sotnikova, Kim, Kostner --> Kim, Kostner, Gold (4) (Sotnikova would have missed the cut-off with one day)
2018 - Zagitova, Medvedeva, Osmond --> Medvedeva, Osmond, Miyahara (4)
2022 - Shcherbakova, Trusova, Sakamoto --> no change

Worlds:

1990 - Trenary, Ito, Cook --> no change
1991 - Yamaguchi, Harding, Kerrigan --> no change
1992 - Yamaguchi, Kerrigan, Chen --> Yamaguchi, Kerrigan, Hubert (4)
1993 - Baiul, Bonaly, Chen --> Bonaly, Sato (4), Kerrigan (5)
1994 - Sato, Bonaly, Szewczenko --> Sato, Bonaly, Kielmann (4)
1995 - Chen, Bonaly, Bobek --> Chen, Bonaly, Markova (5) (Kwan at 4 also missed out)
1996 - Kwan, Chen, Slutskaya --> Chen, Butyrskaya (4), Bonaly (5)
1997 - Lipinski, Kwan, Gusmeroli --> Gusmeroli, Slutskaya (4), Butyrskaya (5)
1998 - Kwan, Slutskaya, Butyrskaya --> Slutskaya, Butyrskaya, Hubert (4)
1999 - Butyrskaya, Kwan, Soldatova --> no change
2000 - Kwan, Slutskaya, Butyrskaya --> no change
2001 - Kwan, Slutskaya, Hughes --> Kwan, Slutskaya, Butyrskaya (4)
2002 - Slutskaya, Kwan, Suguri --> no change
2003 - Kwan, Sokolova, Suguri --> no change
2004 - Arakawa, Cohen, Kwan --> no change
2005 - Slutskaya, Cohen, Kostner --> no change
2006 - Meissner, Suguri, Cohen --> Suguri, Cohen, Sokolova (4)
2007 - Ando, Asada, Kim --> Ando, Nakano (5), Kostner (6) (Meissner at 4 also missed out)
2008 - Asada, Kostner, Kim --> Kostner, Nakato (4), Rochette (5)
2009 - Kim, Rochette, Ando --> no change
2010 - Asada, Kim, Lepistö --> no change
2011 - Ando, Kim, Kostner --> no change
2012 - Kostner, Leonova, Suzuki --> no change
2013 - Kim, Kostner, Asada --> no change
2014 - Asada, Lipnitskaya, Kostner --> Asada, Kostner, Gold (5) (Pogorilaya at 4 also missed out)
2015 - Tuktamysheva, Miyahara, Radionova --> Tuktamysheva, Gold (4), Hongo (6)
2016 - Medvedeva, Wagner, Pogorilaya --> Wagner, Pogorilaya, Gold (4)
2017 - Medvedeva, Osmond, Daleman --> Osmond, Daleman, Kostner (6) (Chen at 4 and Mihara at 5 also missed out)
2018 - Osmond, Higuchi, Miyahara --> Osmond, Miyahara, Kostner (4)
2019 - Zagitova, Tursynbaeva, Medvedeva --> Tursynbaeva, Medvedeva, Sakamoto (5) (Kihira at 4 also missed out)
2021 - Shcherbakova, Tuktamysheva, Trusova --> Tuktamysheva, Chen (4), Hendrickx (5)
2022 - Sakamoto, Hendrickx, Liu --> Sakamoto, Hendrickx, Bell (4)

Of course it is totally bonkers to make this adjustment. Countries would have sent different skaters that could have medalled instead. Russia, for example, had a lot to choose from in the 90s and 10s-20s.

Nevertheless, interesting that the US ladies seems to be the biggest losers here.

Except for the fact the US ladies is for the most part impacted if this were done in the 90s, its not like the ISU is going to retroactively take their medals, it's about the current and going forward. So please don't pretend like pulling out stats from the 90s and say 'see it hurts the US more' and expect people to believe that part of this wasn't in effort to clamp down on specifically on 1 country's dominance in the ladies.

 

[Sjs5572]

The rule has been brought in to stop Akatieva from cleaning up over the next 4 years.

7 of the top 8 female skaters on the planet are Russian. This causes a lot of jealousy and resentment.

Akatieva is the best junior talent in the world, but the new rule punishes her the most. This is by design. It would have been a case of Akatieva and Kamila swapping gold and silver between themselves for the next 4 years.

In what other sport would they bring in a new rule based on arbitrary age limits and allow that rule to punish brightest talent the most and for the longest period. It's cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Wouldn't they just look at it at logically and say Akatieva is the best junior on the planet, either move the date to July 10th for the next few years before reverting to July 1st, or just give her a waiver. We're not talking the 100th best junior skater in the world, it's the number one junior skater. It's a total stitch up.

So clearly it's by design to stop a Russian dominating because if an American was the clear best junior in the world and the new arbitrary rule denied them from competing for a further 3 years because they missed the cut off by 7 days, they'd make sure the new rule doesn't affect the skater or give a waiver.

The Russians probably will be banned from ISU events over the next few years. In addition, being a first year senior at the Olympics will probably help Akatieva (assuming she doesn't drink from her grandfather's glass).

 

[lariko]

That doesn't change that people won't be training 6 quad programs if they only need 2 or 3 to win (in ladies).

Unless your name is Trusova.

Personally, I think Samodelkina, Murav’yeva and Petrosyan are more than enough providing Russians will ever be allowed to compete again… Akatyeva isn’t all that tbh, next to Murav’yeva’s 3A when she lands it and expressiveness.

 

[zanadude]

Personally, I say no.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s a tough situation to be in, but rules are rules. Other sports have these rules too. You can’t change them for one person without changing them for everyone.

Actually, if you change the rule to 16 years and 358 days, that would be a change for everyone. Even if it only practically affected one person.

 

[mrrice]

Tara has weighed in on this subject and she is not a fan. Winning all of her big events before her 17th birthday, I was wondering what she'd have to say about this situation. I'll post a link to her article when I get home.

 

[Amei]

Tara has weighed in on this subject and she is not a fan. Winning all of her big events before her 17th birthday, I was wondering what she'd have to say about this situation. I'll post a link to her article when I get home.

Article:

Tara Lipinski has slammed the decision to raise the Olympic figure skating age limit from 15 to 17.

In a tweet earlier this week, the International Skating Union announced the decision was necessary “for the sake of protecting the physical and mental health, and emotional well-being of Skaters.” It will go into effect in time for the 2026 Olympics in Italy.

“Raising the age limit is a quick fix that will deny athletes a performance on the biggest stage, and ultimately not make a difference in stopping the abuse,” Lipinski tweeted. “These young athletes will still be skating under this broken system, you just won’t see them til they are 17.”

One of the reasons for the switch was the case of Kamila Valieva, the Russian figure skater who at 15 years old had a positive doping test revealed at the 2022 Beijing Olympics.
Lipinski continued to question the new regulations on Instagram.

“This was the answer to systemic doping and abuse of these young athletes?” she asked. “It’s taken me some time to formulate my thoughts as this decision is baffling to me.”

Lipinski, now a 39-year-old commentator for NBC Sports, famously won the gold medal in Ladies’ singles at the Nagano Olympics in 1998 when she was 15. “How does this rule protect these athletes? They’ve protected themselves from another future worldwide scandal that involves a 15 year old. But there will still be 15 year olds that are not eligible for senior competition that will continue to train under this same broken system,” she concluded. “You just won’t see it. It just will be buried.”

 

[McBibus]

Akatyeva isn’t all that tbh, next to Murav’yeva’s 3A when she lands it and expressiveness.

Maybe I loose something in traslation, but are you saying that Akatieva and Muravyeva are on the same level?

 

[Amei]

Tara has weighed in on this subject and she is not a fan. Winning all of her big events before her 17th birthday, I was wondering what she'd have to say about this situation. I'll post a link to her article when I get home.

Tara made a great point, I posted the article, and I don't think the opinion she's shared is necessarily shaped by the fact that she won her titles before she turned 17. They are trotting this out as protecting athletes when all its doing is protecting the ISU's image and competitions from being overshadowed by a scandal. At best there a thought process that if they can't turn senior before they turn 17 there won't be a rush to get the big elements and a better sustainable technique will be taught vs. what technique gets you get the elements as quickly as possible. But there's nothing in the new rules, that makes any of those thoughts become reality.

 

[el henry]

Kurt Browning on why he supports the new age limits:

https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/2040670275843