ISU Council decision on Jr Pair ages

[4everchan]

No....they just started competing last year, and he was too old and she too young, so they haven't competed internationally as a team.

and this is exactly why I detest these exceptions... if you let B/T compete, then, let everyone compete... and that would mean, all young women who haven't reached the required age also (single skaters)... and then, there is no rule

I hope though, that in a few years from now, the national skating feds do realize that they need to do better in matching their pair skaters.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I'm not convinced by your arguments, as I said it's a question of principle.
I also don't see any reason to have adults in a sport in the junior category when this sport has such young athletes. It's not like figure skaters usually reach their peak in their thirties. Why then even have seniors and juniors at all...?
As a fan of this specific team you might be happy, but they should simply never have teamed up at all. And a sport which relies on such couples and needs to make exceptions to not lose one of their most promising pairings needs to realize it has a massive problem that cannot be helped by making exceptions. Open up the sport to same-sex couples (definitely) and maybe think about new disciplines - I would think about mixing pairs with ice dance and have single ice dance as a real category. I know traditionalists of the sport hate it, but you have to acknowledge that pairs, as it is, is a highly problematic discipline with a big potential for unhealthy sports-relationships, a completely unnecessary clinging to old-fashioned men-women stereotypes, constantly putting athletes in a very difficult position because they are dependent on decisions of feds which can turn out this or that way...

@icewhite and anyone else who are put-out and complaining about Baram/ Tioumentsev, I would ask you to stop and think about what exactly you are so upset about in connection with this team. Furthermore, please understand that I'm dealing in facts and stating how I feel about those facts. I'm not making 'arguments' for you to accept or reject. Let's deal with realities, please. I'm not here to engage in arguments or back-and-forth regarding opinions on this adjusted ruling. I think it's important to separate out what people are actually upset about though. If you are worried about specific issues and concerns going on in the sport, I think the first step is to write letters to the ISU, and to your federation, or put together a petition for any concerns you have. Alternatively, you can get involved with local skating clubs in your area. That's where making a difference can occur. No one solves anything by sounding off on a skating forum or insinuating that there are problems with specific partnerships when the problems you are thinking of are actually being created in your own mind. In addition, what "principle" are you referencing?

To act as if somehow because Daniel is 21 that he has significantly changed physically in a way that advantages him over other juniors, is ridiculous. In juniors, there will always be skaters of different shapes and sizes who may be the same age. That's because young people mature physically and mentally at different rates that have no bearing on their ages. Why wasn't there outcry about Hektor Giotopoulous when he skated at Jr. Worlds? He is certainly physically taller than Daniel. And they are the same age. Daniel is only a few months older than Hektor. Golubeva/Giotopoulous were still eligible to skate juniors despite having the skillset and size of some senior teams. That doesn't mean they shouldn't have been allowed to skate juniors or that their size advantaged them over other teams.

As @el henry noted, SafeSport has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. The stated reasoning behind the sudden decision to again change the age limit for international competitions, bears chiefly on issues surrounding the women's discipline and the recent Olympic doping scandal. It's not a new thing for the ISU to react to an Olympic scandal by suddenly enacting rules changes that many people in the fs community had been asking to be addressed for years. The changes were suddenly enacted in part for p.r. purposes, so they could point and say they were doing something about the problem. In fact, they created more problems and will as usual spend years readdressing and reenacting additional rules to correct ill effects. Ultimately, enacting rules, especially in regard to age limits will not solve the actual problems facing young women in the sport of figure skating who have been exploited or psychologically or emotionally abused. The sport itself was part of the problem when they engaged in overscoring young skaters on PCS simply because they landed multiple revolution jumps. Nothing has been done to investigate the coaches or training camp where abuses have been suspected. Slaps on the wrist were meted out to the federation in question, rather than addressing serious doping allegations head-on.

In regard to age gaps in pairs or ice dance, I would point out that skating partners can be the same ages and experience problems that need to be addressed. Adults skate with children everyday in rinks around the world as teachers and as ice dance partners to help girls pass tests who don't currently have competitive partners. There are adult competitors who train and interact with young children competitors everyday at rinks around the world. So yes, there should be awareness training regarding a bevy of concerning issues in this sport that run the gamut. There should be behavioral guidelines at rinks. There should be interactive workshops and counseling programs.

For skaters of all ages, there should be monitoring and oversight and intervention when necessary. Coaches should also be included in awareness training, along with proper vetting before they are employed at rinks. Parents should be involved in appropriate ways. Skaters traveling to comps should always have chaperones and assistance available for any number of concerns that could arise. For the most part, I believe that responsible veteran skaters often play a role in guiding and helping their younger teammates. What the sport doesn't need though, is skating fans on forums endlessly pearl-clutching and obsessing over age gaps between specific teams when problems of the nature fans are worried about, do not exist in those partnerships.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

sorry... i missed a beat... who are Ellie and Timmy ? I keep reading this and thinking about Kam and O'Shea but he is not a Timmy but Danny... I guess I am behind on USA pairs ?

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Ellie Korytek is 14 or 15, I can't find her dob listed anywhere online. Timmy Chapman is 22. He will turn 23 in September. They partnered sometime last year. Timmy has skated in juniors internationally with a different partner. Ellie has only skated domestically so far AFAIK, with Timmy and with previous partners in domestic intermediate, novice, and juniors.

Chris Knierim once worked with a younger Ellie on a jaw-dropping series of triple and quad twists:

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Despite the masks, at the end of this sequence, a huge smile is visible in Ellie's eyes. 🌪 ️

 

[ladyjane]

I am happy for the couples it concerns, but I don't and never will like exceptions. Not concerning a particular couple at all, in fact I am happy for them.

 

[icewhite]

@icewhite and anyone else who are put-out and complaining about Baram/ Tioumentsev, I would ask you to stop and think about what exactly you are so upset about in connection with this team. Furthermore, please understand that I'm dealing in facts and stating how I feel about those facts. I'm not making 'arguments' for you to accept or reject. Let's deal with realities, please. I'm not here to engage in arguments or back-and-forth regarding opinions on this adjusted ruling. I think it's important to separate out what people are actually upset about though. If you are worried about specific issues and concerns going on in the sport, I think the first step is to write letters to the ISU, and to your federation, or put together a petition for any concerns you have. Alternatively, you can get involved with local skating clubs in your area. That's where making a difference can occur. No one solves anything by sounding off on a skating forum or insinuating that there are problems with specific partnerships when the problems you are thinking of are actually being created in your own mind. In addition, what "principle" are you referencing?

To act as if somehow because Daniel is 21 that he has significantly changed physically in a way that advantages him over other juniors, is ridiculous. In juniors, there will always be skaters of different shapes and sizes who may be the same age. That's because young people mature physically and mentally at different rates that have no bearing on their ages. Why wasn't there outcry about Hektor Giotopoulous when he skated at Jr. Worlds? He is certainly physically taller than Daniel. And they are the same age. Daniel is only a few months older than Hektor. Golubeva/Giotopoulous were still eligible to skate juniors despite having the skillset and size of some senior teams. That doesn't mean they shouldn't have been allowed to skate juniors or that their size advantaged them over other teams.

As @el henry noted, SafeSport has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. The stated reasoning behind the sudden decision to again change the age limit for international competitions, bears chiefly on issues surrounding the women's discipline and the recent Olympic doping scandal. It's not a new thing for the ISU to react to an Olympic scandal by suddenly enacting rules changes that many people in the fs community had been asking to be addressed for years. The changes were suddenly enacted in part for p.r. purposes, so they could point and say they were doing something about the problem. In fact, they created more problems and will as usual spend years readdressing and reenacting additional rules to correct ill effects. Ultimately, enacting rules, especially in regard to age limits will not solve the actual problems facing young women in the sport of figure skating who have been exploited or psychologically or emotionally abused. The sport itself was part of the problem when they engaged in overscoring young skaters on PCS simply because they landed multiple revolution jumps. Nothing has been done to investigate the coaches or training camp where abuses have been suspected. Slaps on the wrist were meted out to the federation in question, rather than addressing serious doping allegations head-on.

In regard to age gaps in pairs or ice dance, I would point out that skating partners can be the same ages and experience problems that need to be addressed. Adults skate with children everyday in rinks around the world as teachers and as ice dance partners to help girls pass tests who don't currently have competitive partners. There are adult competitors who train and interact with young children competitors everyday at rinks around the world. So yes, there should be awareness training regarding a bevy of concerning issues in this sport that run the gamut. There should be behavioral guidelines at rinks. There should be interactive workshops and counseling programs.

For skaters of all ages, there should be monitoring and oversight and intervention when necessary. Coaches should also be included in awareness training, along with proper vetting before they are employed at rinks. Parents should be involved in appropriate ways. Skaters traveling to comps should always have chaperones and assistance available for any number of concerns that could arise. For the most part, I believe that responsible veteran skaters often play a role in guiding and helping their younger teammates. What the sport doesn't need though, is skating fans on forums endlessly pearl-clutching and obsessing over age gaps between specific teams when problems of the nature fans are worried about, do not exist in those partnerships.

Oof, you seem to take this personally somehow?
All I'm saying is that the ISU and the whole figure skating community should take its own "minors need special protection" stance seriously. And there are several cases where I feel it doesn't - the hype of Isabeau, the hype of Mao Shimada, the hype of Kimmy Repond, the rules for couples - for me this is not about a specific pair or skater, it's all part of the same discussion. I cannot cry out about the Eteri girls and then take double standards.
I have no local figure skating community, there isn't even a rink in my town. I am traveling to two locations in the winter to skate, but I'm not involved in any community there, I only started to skate recreationally as an adult and they only coach children and teenagers.
I don't get why it is considered a problem in this forum to raise general points. As if a forum only exists to hype and cheer and nothing else shall be mentioned.
It's a forum about figure skating, why can we not discuss ISU rules and rulings?? I am not accusing the specific men of anything when I'm against such age gaps, that's not what this is about. I am an outside watcher in this sport, and this is my perspective.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I hope though, that in a few years from now, the national skating feds do realize that they need to do better in matching their pair skaters.

LOL! Again, why not write letters to those feds instructing them in how to do this!

Better yet, why not listen to Chris Knierim's recent interview with This Week in Skating podcast. Chris spoke about his new position as Director of the Oakton Skating Academy, in Illinois. It was a great interview, during which Chris effectively voices his concerns regarding the need to better promote pairs in order to get more young skaters, especially male skaters, to try pairs. He articulated many of the problems that pairs faces, including splits that happen among young teams, and the difficulty involved in finding good and lasting matches. If it was easy, there would be great teams all over the place. It's not that simple, just as learning pairs, while it can be fun if you're suited to and love the discipline, it's still a huge mountain to climb to become an elite competitor. The problems in finding a match and in maintaining a long term, successful partnership are very complex. Chris also addresses why age gaps happen in pairs partnerships. He discusses the reasons behind them pairing a 20 year old with a 12 year old. He points out that they don't anticipate these two being competitive partners. But they are working with them now to teach them the basics together because there's no other partners available for them at this time.

We can look back at the past ten years and see all the splits and new pairings, and the ups-and-downs teams face. Check out Wiki's past seasons' reviews and notice the long, long lists of ice dance and pairs teams dissolved, formed, dissolved, formed throughout every month of every year.

Another thing is that it's skaters and their coaches who are, for the most part, the ones involved in making decisions about partnering. U.S. fed and SC afaik are not responsible for 'forming' partnerships, although they do have pairs officials who sometimes facilitate or make suggestions. The reality is that young teams will often split due sometimes to outgrowing each other physically, or because of financial or logistical reasons, or from retiring to pursue other interests. The sport does not need to legislate age restrictions for pairs or ice dance couples. They would be undermining these disciplines and going down a very dangerous rabbit hole. What they need to be doing is promoting the pairs discipline and trying to interest more boys and more singles skaters to try pairs. In turn, they also need to provide more competitive opportunities for teams who are trying to develop. Otherwise, what's the point of growing the discipline?

Quite clearly, the sport lacks leadership. It's been a huge drawback for years. Maybe newly elected ISU officials can begin to turn a corner in a positive direction. But that's gonna be a huge task.

 

[moonvine]

and this is exactly why I detest these exceptions... if you let B/T compete, then, let everyone compete... and that would mean, all young women who haven't reached the required age also (single skaters)... and then, there is no rule

I hope though, that in a few years from now, the national skating feds do realize that they need to do better in matching their pair skaters.

I believe that in the US the coaches find matches. There may (or may not) be suggestions from USFS, I really do not know. There are so many things that go into it. Skill level, willingness to train at x location, size, I'd imagine they have to at least like each other for the women to have trust in the men. I'd think age would be one of the least important things.
We could easily have a situation where Ellie and Timmy won US Nationals, and not be eligible to compete anywhere internationally. When Alysa Liu won the US Senior ladies, she was not old enough to compete in Seniors internationally but I believe she was able to compete in juniors.

 

[4everchan]

LOL! Again, why not write letters to those feds instructing them in how to do this!

No need. Some Feds are already applying the guidelines.

 

[4everchan]

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Ellie Korytek is 14 or 15, I can't find her dob listed anywhere online. Timmy Chapman is 22. He will turn 23 in September. They partnered sometime last year. Timmy has skated in juniors internationally with a different partner. Ellie has only skated domestically so far AFAIK, with Timmy and with previous partners in domestic intermediate, novice, and juniors.

Chris Knierim once worked with a younger Ellie on a jaw-dropping series of triple and quad twists:

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Despite the masks, at the end of this sequence, a huge smile is visible in Ellie's eyes. 🌪 ️

thanks but @moonvine had beaten you to it... I couldn't care less that a 30 year old man is able to throw a tiny girl into a quad twist really... that's exactly what I don't think is appropriate. People smile until they get hurt. Some of us are hoping for safer sport.. and if that means that junior pairs, closer in age, do not perform triple twists and throws anymore, that's perfectly fine with me. There are other areas they can work on... like skating in unison... and looking like real pairs... which is something that is less and less common in the junior fields where big tricks earn so many points.

YMMV

 

[el henry]

I am sorry, I am American, I'm happy these skaters are doing well domestically, and I. Do. Not. Feel. Sorry. For. Them if they cannot compete internationally.

Did Ellie and Timmy know the rules about international competition before they formed a pair? Did Alysa know the rules about international competition before deciding to compete as a senior at US Nats?

Okey dokey then, they knew the rules and they can follow them.

It makes a difference because they might win medals for the US of A? Nope.

And please skating gods more pairs like Ashley Cain and Timothy LeDuc and less tiny gal/non-lifting partner thrown across the rink please

 

[moonvine]

thanks but @moonvine had beaten you to it... I couldn't care less that a 30 year old man is able to throw a tiny girl into a quad twist really... that's exactly what I don't think is appropriate. People smile until they get hurt. Some of us are hoping for safer sport.. and if that means that junior pairs, closer in age, do not perform triple twists and throws anymore, that's perfectly fine with me. There are other areas they can work on... like skating in unison... and looking like real pairs... which is something that is less and less common in the junior fields where big tricks earn so many points.

YMMV

Come on now, he's 22, not 30.

 

[4everchan]

Come on now, he's 22, not 30.

i was not talking about Timmy but Chris : he is the one shown in the video shared above.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I couldn't care less that a 30 year old man is able to throw a tiny girl into a quad twist really... that's exactly what I don't think is appropriate.

I shared these videos because you asked about Ellie Korytek & Timmy Chapman. I didn't realize that @moonvine had already shared the Skyfall video.

This was filmed by Jordan Cowan of OnIcePerspectives. Jordan has done so much with his film work and his YouTube Channel to help promote the sport. Kudos to Jordan & OIP!

FYI-- as noted in the caption, Chris Knierim was Ellie's coach when he worked at the Irvine rink. They were not doing this to put on a show. Chris was training Ellie to learn what it feels like being thrown in the air and turning. The fourth turn happened because she was so tiny and Chris threw her so high. [ETA: On second thought, I don't think the 4th turn just happened. It would have been planned. And there would have been training and prep off-ice before executing these twists on-ice. As well, if Ellie's parents had any doubts or concerns, they would not have allowed her to learn the twist at that age. Clearly, her parents gave their permission. Chris is a skilled and knowledgeable coach, and they were training at the Irvine rink, which is a prestigious training site for pairs. Plus, Ellie was clearly eager to learn. ]

I've heard pairs girls emphasize the importance of experiencing how particular moves feel in their body when they are trying to master pairs elements.

Ellie obviously had a great head start learning from Chris. We can see in the Skyfall video what an excellent triple twist she has with Timmy and how smooth and easy it looks for her to execute it. I'm not sure what it is you don't think is appropriate. But no matter. I doubt that Ellie, Chris, or Timmy are bothered by what anyone they don't know thinks is appropriate or inappropriate about their pairs training practices.

People smile until they get hurt.

! What has this comment got to do with the fact that Ellie was clearly smiling behind her mask?

FYI-- one of the reasons we don't tend to hear about catastrophic pairs accidents is because pairs elements are always taught with the utmost safety precautions. The pairs guy's uppermost concern is to always protect his partner. And fearless pairs girls are able to do what they do because they learn to trust their partners.

Some of us are hoping for safer sport.. and if that means that junior pairs, closer in age, do not perform triple twists and throws anymore, that's perfectly fine with me.

Huh? Junior pairs athletes typically learn and execute double throws and double twists first. Some teams also typically compete doubles elements until they have comfortably mastered triples. If they plan to have a senior career, they do need to start learning triples while they are still in the junior ranks. I would also remind you that triple twists and triple throws are staples of pairs figure skating.

There are other areas they can work on... like skating in unison... and looking like real pairs... which is something that is less and less common in the junior fields where big tricks earn so many points.

Junior and senior pairs teams all work on skating in unison, and they work on mastering difficult pairs elements too. I doubt that proper training favors difficult pairs elements over unison practice. Most likely Bruno Marcotte and Meghan Duhamel could confirm the importance of both in junior and in elite senior training regimens.

 

[JimR]

I can't think of another sport where it acceptable for a 14 year old girl to be teamed with a 21 year old man. A lot of feds say one thing then do the exact opposite.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I am sorry, I am American, I'm happy these skaters are doing well domestically, and I. Do. Not. Feel. Sorry. For. Them if they cannot compete internationally.

Why do you need to apologize for being an American? I don't feel sorry for these teams either. Furthermore, I seriously doubt that Sonia/ Daniel or Ellie/ Timmy want anyone feeling sorry for them, nor are any of them likely to be feeling sorry for themselves.

Did Ellie and Timmy know the rules about international competition before they formed a pair?

I'm sure they knew there would be challenges for them due to Timmy having aged out of juniors. You could ask @moonvine to check with Timmy for confirmation about when they partnered vs when they learned about the new ISU age limit rules for senior international competition.

It makes a difference because they might win medals for the US of A? Nope.

And please skating gods more pairs like Ashley Cain and Timothy LeDuc and less tiny gal/non-lifting partner thrown across the rink please

Hmm, maybe then you are or will become a fan of Golubeva/ Giotopoulous-Moore of Australia.

Personally, I've never seen anyone intentionally "thrown across the rink." There's always safety first in pairs figure skating.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

A lot of feds say one thing then do the exact opposite.

A perfect description of the Russian federation.

 

[cheerknithanson]

No no no. Just stop encouraging that big of an age gap for a pairs team for when one of the team members is that young to start with. It’s not good.

 

[CrazyKittenLady]

Personally, I've never seen anyone intentionally "thrown across the rink." There's always safety first in pairs figure skating.

Would be so nice if that were true.

Just one recent example:
Did you watch the pairs' competition at Worlds last season? Did you see Safina/Berulava? Even without the backstory of her injury, just watching that performance, do you believe Karina's safety and well-being were first on her partner's or her coaches' mind?

 

[4everchan]

Your negative reaction seems so bitter and resentful. I can't imagine why. This was filmed by Jordan Cowan of OnIcePerspectives. Jordan has done so much with his film work and his YouTube Channel to help promote the sport. Kudos to Jordan & OIP!

FYI-- as noted in the caption, Chris Knierim was Ellie's coach when he worked at the Irvine rink. They were not doing this to put on a show. Chris was training Ellie to learn what it feels like being thrown in the air and turning three times. The fourth turn happened of course because she was so tiny and Chris threw her so high. I've heard pairs girls emphasize the importance of learning how particular moves feel in their body when they are trying to master pairs elements.

Ellie obviously had a great head start learning from Chris. We can see in the Skyfall video what an excellent triple twist she has with Timmy and how smooth and easy it looks for her to execute it. I'm not sure what it is you don't think is appropriate. But no matter. I doubt that Ellie, Chris, or Timmy are bothered by what anyone they don't know thinks is appropriate or inappropriate about their pairs training practices.

Huh? Junior pairs athletes typically learn and execute double throws and double twists first. Some teams also typically compete doubles elements until they have comfortably mastered triples. If they plan to have a senior career, they do need to start learning triples while they are still in the junior ranks. I would also remind you that triple twists and triple throws are staples of pairs figure skating.

Junior and senior pairs teams all work on skating in unison, and they work on mastering difficult pairs elements too. I doubt that proper training favors difficult pairs elements over unison practice. Most likely Bruno Marcotte and Meghan Duhamel could confirm the importance of both in junior and in elite senior training regimens.

Answers with paragraphs
1) not bitter or resentful at all. Concerned. I know On Ice perspectives. Their videos often go viral, at least within the community.. and that's exactly why we shouldn't be seeing a quad twist. There is an obvious reason why the ISU downgraded the Base Value of all quad elements in pairs.
2) Fourth rotation "just happened because she is so tiny" as you say... Sounds dangerous to me.
3) No need to remind me that triple elements are in junior and senior pair skating. I think I have watched the sport long enough to know that. My concern is about something else that I have mentioned already several times. I don't think it will help if I mention it once more.
4) Then, what about showing good pair skating instead of crazy quad twisting tricks? Seriously.

Do I really need to post the video of Ash and Tim to show how dangerous pair skating is... ? And those two were at the peak of their careers, with a lot of experience and strong, mature, developed bodies. It was a freak accident. It can happen. I have seen twist crashes in person, live at the rink. I don't wish this on anyone, especially not a 13 or 14 years old girl with a 8-9 years older partner.

I think it's clear we both love pairs skating and have different views about it. Let's leave it at that.

PS : I will add this thought too now that I am having it : the fans have great admiration for pairs women.... often, fans talk about them as being so tough, daredevils, loving the adrenaline of the tricks etc... It is great that some athletes thrive on this. I am wondering though, what if the sport was "marketed" in a safer, more progressive way... would some children and their parents be more willing to take that route? Perhaps... Fans often complain that there are not that many pairs on the circuit, or a lack of partners available etc... well, perhaps it is because some athletes end up deciding against pairs because of the physical stress and danger. Already, in the last few years, two of my favourite pairs ended their careers because of severe and life threatening injuries... and that's just two of my favourites... there are MANY more. This is why I believe so much in keeping the partners closer in age. It's not because there is a tradition in coaching and pairs development that favoured age difference so that young girls would learn how to fly so early that it is the only way to do things. Gabbie Izzo is a great example : never did pairs right? Look at her fly at the venerable age of 21. It can be done safer. That's all.... and that's why I despise the exception to the rule that was announcing a change of culture... until it wasn't anymore.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Gabbie Izzo is a great example : never did pairs right? Look at her fly at the venerable age of 21.

Yep, also Deanna Stellato, Valentina Marchei, Zoe Jones - watching them, they look like they were born to do pairs, despite an even later start to the discipline.