ISU Council decision on Jr Pair ages

[lariko]

Communication No. 2575
SINGLE & PAIR SKATING
ISU Council decision as to the application of Rule 108 (age) for Junior Pairs during the transition period 2023/24

At the Congress in June 2022, during consideration of proposals relating to Rule 108, it was agreed to create an “Age Categories Harmonization Junior and below” Working Group, and the Working Group was duly established by the Council.

The Working Group is preparing a proposal for the Agenda of the 2024 Congress to increase the upper age limit of Junior Skaters for Pair Skating, and in order to support the preparation of this, the Council decided to apply Rule 108, paragraph 3.b) in the season 2023/24 in the following way:

Pairs that have competed in the Junior category during the season 2022/23 at Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating Events or at the ISU World Junior Figure Skating Championship 2023 and in which the male partner will already have reached the age of twenty-one before July 1, 2023, are able to compete at the Junior level during the 2023/24 Season.

The Council makes this ruling under Article 17. 1.q) of the ISU Constitution in consideration of the exceptional circumstances that have been created by the 2022 Congress decision to increase the age limit for Seniors in combination with the above-mentioned new proposals to be made to the 2024 Congress. This will disadvantage certain Pairs who would otherwise be obliged to either split up or not compete for one Season as they will not fall into the Junior or Senior category in the season 2023/24 but will again fall into the Junior category in the season 2024/25 if the above mentioned increase in age limit is accepted by the 2024 Congress.

ISU Members of Pairs affected by this exception are requested to send the relevant information including the names and birthdays of the Pairs to [email protected] by July 20, 2023 latest. After review, the ISU will subsequently confirm whether the Pairs are subject to this ruling in due time for the season 2023/24. Seoul, Jae Youl Kim, Pr

That's great. The exception seems narrow, specific and reviewed on case per case basis. It is designed to address transition period to new age limit for Seniors only.

 

[yesterday]

I'm sorry, I was unclear.

I meant of the two couples who were "grandfathered", only one of the couples was American; the other is German. Only the American couple (both members) would be subject to Safe Sport's jurisdiction.

i think using the term grandfather here makes it even worse LOL

Sorry, i had a very long day

Thank you both.
I found this interesting and looked it up. I did not find an easy synonym, but this

https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/10/21/239081586/the-racial-history-of-the-grandfather-clause

and learned a lot

 

[Dreamer57]

I read somewhere that Ackermann / Harms had split, so this really would only benefit the USA (Baram will still only age up in 2026)
Possibly G/GM too but I think they are embracing seniors next season

If they had any logic they should have stated this before junior worlds or not considered it at all.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

I read somewhere that Ackermann / Harms had split, so this really would only benefit the USA (Baram will still only age up in 2026)
Possibly G/GM too but I think they are embracing seniors next season

If they had any logic they should have stated this before junior worlds or not considered it at all.

With G/GM, Hektor's aged out (21) but Anastasia is 17.5 years old already so they are fine with seniors. This amendment is just meant for pairs with one partner too old for juniors and the other too young for seniors.

Let us know if you track down the source for A/H split (I did a cursory search but can't find anything)

ETA: Saw on social media about Harms doing a tryout recently. So you're right, this amendment only applies to Baram/Tioumentsev.

 

[Amei]

I disagree that any exception should be made to age rules. but, given that there are only two such couples, I do see the other side.

Since only 50% of the couple are American, diddly squat to do with Safe Sport. Health and safety of pushing young skaters too far, too fast does not come under the mandate of Safe Sport even for those who are American.

But age limits are, IMO, an excellent way to preserve the health of young skaters even if it is not a Safe Sport issue.

It does speak to the culture of the US Fed, everyone has bucked at Safe Sport not being anything impactful and here's another proof of highly likely the US Fed (since their champs are the 1s this primarily benefits at this point) arguing to keep a much older man together with a girl that is 14.

 

[4everchan]

1) the argument has been made about Safe Sport so I won't add to this (though I agree to some extent)
2) i don't like the unfair advantage gained by a much older male partner over his competitors who are actually trying to follow the guidelines with creating teams that are closer in age
3) does it say anywhere if this is a one year exception or will we get the same deal next year, with actually, the same team because they won't be senior eligible next year either.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

There is a 7 year age gap between them like there is between the junior world champs.

Which specific team are you talking about? Murakami & Moriguchi (who have split), the German team, or Korytek/ Chapman?

Honestly, I'm somewhat surprised about the upset attitudes and objections being expressed by some fans here, over this ruling. At this point, it will narrowly affect only two teams who were adversely impacted by the sudden age limit rule change instituted because of the Olympic doping scandal. This new adjusted ruling is not a surprise, as the possibility was publicly discussed earlier this year. At that time, it affected three young teams, and now only two, since the split by the Japanese pair.

I sincerely came here not expecting to wade through reactionary concerns, but simply to celebrate! I'm very happy for Sonia and Daniel. Yay! They truly deserve to be able to continue competing together as pairs partners as long as they desire to do so.

 

[4everchan]

Which specific team are you talking about? Murakami & Moriguchi (who have split), the German team, or Korytek/ Chapman?

Honestly, I'm somewhat surprised about the upset attitudes and objections being expressed by some fans here, over this ruling. At this point, it will narrowly affect only two teams who were adversely impacted by the sudden age limit rule change instituted because of the Olympic doping scandal. This new adjusted ruling is not a surprise, as the possibility was publicly discussed earlier this year. At that time, it affected three young teams, and now only two, since the split by the Japanese pair.

I sincerely came here not expecting to wade through reactionary concerns, but simply to celebrate! I'm very happy for Sonia and Daniel. Yay! They truly deserve to be able to continue competing together as pairs partners as long as they desire to do so.

I believe the doping scandal gave fuel to the ruling but it had been in the works for a while for other reasons.

I am among the reactionary fans : let's make one thing clear : nothing against the skaters concerned by the exception.
The not so thrilled opinion I have shared is about the ISU itself. Make rules and follow them... Or make better rules... Or make rules with exceptions that are mentioned when rules are passed.

Making rules, then tweaking them as they see fit to allow some exceptions doesn't help building any credibility to an organization that receives already so much criticism for exactly that... You cannot say you protect young women by raising the age but then, let a 14 year old girl being thrown and lifted by a much stronger and older partner. It's just counterproductive.

 

[Amei]

Which specific team are you talking about? Murakami & Moriguchi (who have split), the German team, or Korytek/ Chapman?

Honestly, I'm somewhat surprised about the upset attitudes and objections being expressed by some fans here, over this ruling. At this point, it will narrowly affect only two teams who were adversely impacted by the sudden age limit rule change instituted because of the Olympic doping scandal. This new adjusted ruling is not a surprise, as the possibility was publicly discussed earlier this year. At that time, it affected three young teams, and now only two, since the split by the Japanese pair.

I sincerely came here not expecting to wade through reactionary concerns, but simply to celebrate! I'm very happy for Sonia and Daniel. Yay! They truly deserve to be able to continue competing together as pairs partners as long as they desire to do so.

Tioumentsev and Barum, the junior world champs from the US. She was born in November 2008 (14), he was born in March 2002 (21).

Lots of skaters got impacted by the rule change and they are being told to suck it up and deal with it, why should special exceptions be made for maybe a handful of skaters (several of which are instances of adults being paired with children) why can't we revisit the rule altogether then. Tioumentsev and Barum were partnered together when the US Fed voted to raise the age limit (which most Feds did) so we should make exceptions because Feds were too stupid to look past their nose when making a vote last year?

 

[el henry]

It does speak to the culture of the US Fed, everyone has bucked at Safe Sport not being anything impactful and here's another proof of highly likely the US Fed (since their champs are the 1s this primarily benefits at this point) arguing to keep a much older man together with a girl that is 14.

I am a not a huge fan of age differences, if for no other reason I think that it detracts from the pairs presentation in skating if they have that kind of mismatch. In seniors as well as juniors. I also don't think that there should be any exceptions, any, none, zero to votes to raise the age limit for seniors.

That said, a mismatch in ages in pairs skating is not prohibited by SafeSport. The mandate for Safe Sport is to prevent abuse: mental, physical, sexual, of minor athletes. The mere fact that a minor skates with an adult does not mean that such abuse exists. Of course, one should be ever vigilant, but one should be ever vigilant for any signs of abuse anywhere under any circumstances.

As I understand it, the age limits were primarily raised to protect the health of athletes pressured to perform at the senior level (and by pressured I mean doing elements that could be harmful to developing bodies to "succeed" as seniors). The age limits were not enacted to prevent mental, sexual or physical abuse. (ETA: there could in fact be physical or mental abuse employed to achieve those elements, but not the direct reason for the raising of the age limit).

So again, whatever the viewpoint on SafeSport or the age limits, they are not related and not the same thing.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Tioumentsev and Barum, the junior world champs from the US. She was born in November 2008 (14), he was born in March 2002 (21).

Lots of skaters got impacted by the rule change and they are being told to suck it up and deal with it, why should special exceptions be made for maybe a handful of skaters (several of which are instances of adults being paired with children) why can't we revisit the rule altogether then. Tioumentsev and Barum were partnered together when the US Fed voted to raise the age limit (which most Feds did) so we should make exceptions because Feds were too stupid to look past their nose when making a vote last year?

In the passage I highlighted, you spoke of a team without mentioning them by name. I can see now that you likely were referring to Moriguchi & Murakami, in response to something mentioned by another poster. In that same passage, you said, "like the Junior World champs." I know the identity of the current junior world champions in pairs, so they are clearly not who I was questioning you about. As I said earlier, I came here to celebrate the fact that Sonia & Daniel will be able to continue competing this season. They deserve the chance to continue developing their skills as a team.

Sonia Baram/ Daniel Tioutmentsev are obviously the main team certain people are expressing unfounded concerns over. You stated twice @Amei that Sonia & Daniel should be made to find new partners closer to their ages, if they want to continue to compete. That's a rather harsh and frankly offensive thing to say about this team. They are extremely talented, exceptionally well-matched physically, and well-adjusted emotionally. They have respect for each other and they share mutual goals. They are also being coached by an award-winning team of pairs coaches who are exemplary role models.

Todd Sand & Jenni Meno Sand have consistently demonstrated that they care about their students as human beings first and athletes second. I don't think there's any need to worry about the morals, character, or behavior patterns of any teams under their tutelage, regardless of the age span between any of their teams. That means Ellie Korytek & Timmy Chapman are also in good hands and do not need to be targeted and obsessed over either simply because of the differences in their ages.

Furthermore, Sonia & Daniel demonstrated their deep bond, mental strength, dedication, courage, and maturity as a team, when they won Junior Worlds earlier this year under the very difficult situation of their coach, Todd Sand, suffering a life-threatening heart attack soon after the short program. Sonia's mother is closely involved in the sport and she was able to support Sonia & Daniel in the kiss 'n cry in Todd's absence. After winning, Sonia & Daniel spoke about how much Todd's love and guidance meant to them and how much they relied on his teachings and life lessons in being able to go out there and compete their free program. They were in tears as they dedicated their win to Todd. We have all learned since then just how serious his condition was, and how uncertain his survival prospects were at that time. Going through that experience surely taught Daniel & Sonia a great deal, and has contributed to their growth as a team, and as individuals.

The fact that other junior teams who were impacted by the rules change and would have benefited by this adjustment, have now split, should have no bearing on Sonia/ Daniel being the sole team to subsequently benefit. Before the initial rules change, Sonia & Daniel knew that they would have to sit out one season, but they should have been able to compete next season as seniors. So, if they get to compete this season again in juniors, but have to sit out next season, okay. But, this talented team should not suddenly be forced to sit out from international competition for two seasons. Such a situation is not healthy for the growth of the sport. It becomes discouraging for talented athletes across-the-board witnessing or being subjected to such unfair complications. The sport is not helped by losing promising athletes who may simply decide to retire and pursue other interests, rather than try to participate in a sport which prevents them from excelling.

 

[moonvine]

Which specific team are you talking about? Murakami & Moriguchi (who have split), the German team, or Korytek/ Chapman?

Honestly, I'm somewhat surprised about the upset attitudes and objections being expressed by some fans here, over this ruling. At this point, it will narrowly affect only two teams who were adversely impacted by the sudden age limit rule change instituted because of the Olympic doping scandal. This new adjusted ruling is not a surprise, as the possibility was publicly discussed earlier this year. At that time, it affected three young teams, and now only two, since the split by the Japanese pair.

I sincerely came here not expecting to wade through reactionary concerns, but simply to celebrate! I'm very happy for Sonia and Daniel. Yay! They truly deserve to be able to continue competing together as pairs partners as long as they desire to do so.

I’m happy for Sonia and Daniel but sad for Ellie and Timmy. And I was surprised to see all the concerns as well. And I don’t think it’s a Safe Sport issue as well.

 

[icewhite]

In the passage I highlighted, you spoke of a team without mentioning them by name. I can see now that you likely were referring to Moriguchi & Murakami, in response to something mentioned by another poster. In that same passage, you said, "like the Junior World champs." I know the identity of the current junior world champions in pairs, so they are clearly not who I was questioning you about. As I said earlier, I came here to celebrate the fact that Sonia & Daniel will be able to continue competing this season. They deserve the chance to continue developing their skills as a team.

Sonia Baram/ Daniel Tioutmentsev are obviously the main team certain people are expressing unfounded concerns over. You stated twice @Amei that Sonia & Daniel should be made to find new partners closer to their ages, if they want to continue to compete. That's a rather harsh and frankly offensive thing to say about this team. They are extremely talented, exceptionally well-matched physically, and well-adjusted emotionally. They have respect for each other and they share mutual goals. They are also being coached by an award-winning team of pairs coaches who are exemplary role models.

Todd Sand & Jenni Meno Sand have consistently demonstrated that they care about their students as human beings first and athletes second. I don't think there's any need to worry about the morals, character, or behavior patterns of any teams under their tutelage, regardless of the age span between any of their teams. That means Ellie Korytek & Timmy Chapman are also in good hands and do not need to be targeted and obsessed over either simply because of the differences in their ages.

Furthermore, Sonia & Daniel demonstrated their deep bond, mental strength, dedication, courage, and maturity as a team, when they won Junior Worlds earlier this year under the very difficult situation of their coach, Todd Sand, suffering a life-threatening heart attack soon after the short program. Sonia's mother is closely involved in the sport and she was able to support Sonia & Daniel in the kiss 'n cry in Todd's absence. After winning, Sonia & Daniel spoke about how much Todd's love and guidance meant to them and how much they relied on his teachings and life lessons in being able to go out there and compete their free program. They were in tears as they dedicated their win to Todd. We have all learned since then just how serious his condition was, and how uncertain his survival prospects were at that time. Going through that experience surely taught Daniel & Sonia a great deal, and has contributed to their growth as a team, and as individuals.

The fact that other junior teams who were impacted by the rules change and would have benefited by this adjustment, have now split, should have no bearing on Sonia/ Daniel being the sole team to subsequently benefit. Before the initial rules change, Sonia & Daniel knew that they would have to sit out one season, but they should have been able to compete next season as seniors. So, if they get to compete this season again in juniors, but have to sit out next season, okay. But, this talented team should not suddenly be forced to sit out from international competition for two seasons. Such a situation is not healthy for the growth of the sport. It becomes discouraging for talented athletes across-the-board witnessing or being subjected to such unfair complications. The sport is not helped by losing promising athletes who may simply decide to retire and pursue other interests, rather than try to participate in a sport which prevents them from excelling.

I'm not convinced by your arguments, as I said it's a question of principle.
I also don't see any reason to have adults in a sport in the junior category when this sport has such young athletes. It's not like figure skaters usually reach their peak in their thirties. Why then even have seniors and juniors at all...?
As a fan of this specific team you might be happy, but they should simply never have teamed up at all. And a sport which relies on such couples and needs to make exceptions to not lose one of their most promising pairings needs to realize it has a massive problem that cannot be helped by making exceptions. Open up the sport to same-sex couples (definitely) and maybe think about new disciplines - I would think about mixing pairs with ice dance and have single ice dance as a real category. I know traditionalists of the sport hate it, but you have to acknowledge that pairs, as it is, is a highly problematic discipline with a big potential for unhealthy sports-relationships, a completely unnecessary clinging to old-fashioned men-women stereotypes, constantly putting athletes in a very difficult position because they are dependent on decisions of feds which can turn out this or that way...

 

[moonvine]

I am a not a huge fan of age differences, if for no other reason I think that it detracts from the pairs presentation in skating if they have that kind of mismatch. In seniors as well as juniors. I also don't think that there should be any exceptions, any, none, zero to votes to raise the age limit for seniors.

That said, a mismatch in ages in pairs skating is not prohibited by SafeSport. The mandate for Safe Sport is to prevent abuse: mental, physical, sexual, of minor athletes. The mere fact that a minor skates with an adult does not mean that such abuse exists. Of course, one should be ever vigilant, but one should be ever vigilant for any signs of abuse anywhere under any circumstances.

As I understand it, the age limits were primarily raised to protect the health of athletes pressured to perform at the senior level (and by pressured I mean doing elements that could be harmful to developing bodies to "succeed" as seniors). The age limits were not enacted to prevent mental, sexual or physical abuse. (ETA: there could in fact be physical or mental abuse employed to achieve those elements, but not the direct reason for the raising of the age limit).

So again, whatever the viewpoint on SafeSport or the age limits, they are not related and not the same thing.

Yes, the age limits were raised to protect the health of athletes pressured to perform at the senior level. This is for them to compete at the JUNIOR level. So there's no pressure to perform at the senior level (thought I expect they will be domestically, which means they will be

I'm not convinced by your arguments, as I said it's a question of principle.
I also don't see any reason to have adults in a sport in the junior category when this sport has such young athletes. It's not like figure skaters usually reach their peak in their thirties. Why then even have seniors and juniors at all...?
As a fan of this specific team you might be happy, but they should simply never have teamed up at all. And a sport which relies on such couples and needs to make exceptions to not lose one of their most promising pairings needs to realize it has a massive problem that cannot be helped by making exceptions. Open up the sport to same-sex couples (definitely) and maybe think about new disciplines - I would think about mixing pairs with ice dance and have single ice dance as a real category. I know traditionalists of the sport hate it, but you have to acknowledge that pairs, as it is, is a highly problematic discipline with a big potential for unhealthy sports-relationships, a completely unnecessary clinging to old-fashioned men-women stereotypes, constantly putting athletes in a very difficult position because they are dependent on decisions of feds which can turn out this or that way...

Actually it isn't unusual at all to have pair skaters (and ice dancers, for that matter) in their 30's. Alexa and Brandon are both in their 30s and although they (apparently) retired they were only getting better. Deanna and Maxime - Maxime is in his 30's and Deanna, well...she's an exception. It's not unusual, is what I'm trying to say.

I agree with you on the solo dance, same sex couples (but I think it will be quite some time before the ISU gets there).

 

[4everchan]

I’m happy for Sonia and Daniel but sad for Ellie and Timmy. And I was surprised to see all the concerns as well. And I don’t think it’s a Safe Sport issue as well.

sorry... i missed a beat... who are Ellie and Timmy ? I keep reading this and thinking about Kam and O'Shea but he is not a Timmy but Danny... I guess I am behind on USA pairs ?

 

[moonvine]

sorry... i missed a beat... who are Ellie and Timmy ? I keep reading this and thinking about Kam and O'Shea but he is not a Timmy but Danny... I guess I am behind on USA pairs ?

Ellie Korytek and Timmy Chapman.....they are the current US Junior Champions and they are amazing, let me see if I can find some video. I cannot wait for this years' Nationals, where they will be skating senior It's going to be a great event.

 

[4everchan]

Ellie Korytek and Timmy Chapman.....they are the current US Junior Champions and they are amazing, let me see if I can find some video. I cannot wait for this years' Nationals, where they will be skating senior It's going to be a great event.

and why are you sad for them? They are very promising.

 

[moonvine]

and why are you sad for them? They are very promising.

Because they can't skate internationally at all for...2 seasons I think? They are determined to stay together though, at least last I talked to him (at US Nationals). Hopefully I will talk to him at US Nationals again this year. They did a bunch of shows this summer, none near me though.

 

[4everchan]

Because they can't skate internationally at all for...2 seasons I think? They are determined to stay together though, at least last I talked to him (at US Nationals). Hopefully I will talk to him at US Nationals again this year. They did a bunch of shows this summer, none near me though.

i see... so the exception doesn't apply to them? interesting.

 

[moonvine]

i see... so the exception doesn't apply to them? interesting.

No....they just started competing last year, and he was too old and she too young, so they haven't competed internationally as a team.