ISU proposals: Jumps, spin for 2024-25

[Mathman]

I would vote yes. I want more creativity and less skating from one jump to the next. Also, more choreo spins and movements, more points for step sequences and a complete overhaul of spin levels.

A girl can dream, right?

I fear, though, that it is only a dream. No matter how the ISU tweaks the "balanced program" rules, one thing never changes. Competitors get beaucoups of points (sorry, Francophones ) for doing as many jumps with as many rotations as possible, and fewer points for anything else.

At best the "everything else" can serve as a tie breaker among the multi-quad virtuosos.

 

[icewhite]

I fear, though, that it is only a dream. No matter how the ISU tweaks the "balanced program" rules, one thing never changes. Competitors get beaucoups of points (sorry, Francophones ) for doing as many jumps with as many rotations as possible, and fewer points for anything else.

At best the "everything else" can serve as a tie breaker among the multi-quad virtuosos.

I also think it won't change the outcome much. Take away the lowest bv jump passage from everyone and the strongest jumpers will still prevail, maybe their advantage of being able to do certain jumps will even become more significant - depending on what is done with the rest of the elements. But it's just slightly more time for choreography and maybe a little bit more strength left to do something else so it can just be more enjoyable to watch. Of course we could also prolongue the programs again, but for practical reasons that is not a possible solution.

 

[cheerknithanson]

And it still could very well not pass through. 6-7 more weeks until we find out.

Like for example, back in December, Ted Leonsis, the owner of the Washington Wizards and Capitals announced plans to move the teams from DC to Alexandra, VA. There was a press conference about it and plans on what would happen….however, 2-3 months later, those plans became dead because the VA senate vetoed the plans for the arena. So that plan became dead.

Point is, we can’t think it’s for sure going to happen until June. We’ll see.

 

[DancingCactus]

Probably the ranking wouldn't change much. This is more about our viewing pleasure and for the skaters who actually give a damn about creating programs that can be called that.
More points for non-jump elements would be a good incentive to inverst more into these areas and reward skaters who excel at that.

 

[cailuj365]

I always thought it was hilarious that ISU had to literally put in a "choreographic sequence" within TES to make skaters not forget about choreography. I'm kind of curious to see what the skaters come up with for choreographic spins. There's only a handful of skaters who really wow me with the spins.

To be honest, I'd like to see the judges give negative GOE for a poorly designed ChSeq. It feels that any ChSeq will always get at least the BV and can only get +GOE as long as the skater doesn't stumble or fall. Maybe that is the rule, but there are some ChSeq that I would give a -2 or -3 as they are just poorly crafted or placed.

But you know, if they're going to take away a potential jump combination and emphasize the choreographic elements (which I kind of think sends a wrong message about the direction of the sport as well as to the skaters - like, you're not good enough to do 7 jump passes with 3 combos and do choreography at the same time, so here), pleeeease make the 4A at least 15 points. Happiness and justice for everyone!

 

[4everchan]

I always thought it was hilarious that ISU had to literally put in a "choreographic sequence" within TES to make skaters not forget about choreography. I'm kind of curious to see what the skaters come up with for choreographic spins. There's only a handful of skaters who really wow me with the spins.

To be honest, I'd like to see the judges give negative GOE for a poorly designed ChSeq. It feels that any ChSeq will always get at least the BV and can only get +GOE as long as the skater doesn't stumble or fall. Maybe that is the rule, but there are some ChSeq that I would give a -2 or -3 as they are just poorly crafted or placed.

But you know, if they're going to take away a potential jump combination and emphasize the choreographic elements (which I kind of think sends a wrong message about the direction of the sport as well as to the skaters - like, you're not good enough to do 7 jump passes with 3 combos and do choreography at the same time, so here), pleeeease make the 4A at least 15 points. Happiness and justice for everyone!

i don't understand why the 4A should be any higher... if anything, all quads should be worth less Maybe we would finally get programs if skaters had to skate for their PCS.

Being at worlds this year : SP were great. LP... omg... skate skate skate JUMP... skate skate skate JUMP repeat... then, in the last 40 seconds, skaters finally get a life and do stuff...

we are far from fabulous choreographed program like these ones... where jumps aren't the only focus but integrated into the program... oh and he was 18...


or this beauty !

 

[Alex Fedorov]

I fear, though, that it is only a dream. No matter how the ISU tweaks the "balanced program" rules, one thing never changes. Competitors get beaucoups of points (sorry, Francophones ) for doing as many jumps with as many rotations as possible, and fewer points for anything else.

At best the "everything else" can serve as a tie breaker among the multi-quad virtuosos.

increasing the importance of choreo = increasing the importance of subjectivity. One judge likes the way the skater moves, another thinks that in front of him is a puppet whose strings are being carelessly pulled. This can only benefit those who rely not on the skill of athletes, but on behind-the-scenes intrigue, collusion with judges and national preferences. To be honest, there is already too much of all this already. Technical elements, namely jumps and spins, are the support, a kind of skeleton of any performance. Remove that skeleton and you have a jellyfish, a shapeless pile of slime.

Yes, performances in the style of “Trusova’s five quads,” especially in the version that could be seen in Stockholm, can hardly be called a move in the right direction. But Trusova failed to achieve success and remains a unique phenomenon. And the current proposals of the ISU are, in fact, an official recognition that the current generation of skaters has lost their basic skills and encouragement of further degradation. Do you want smoother transitions and more defined choreo, rather than moving from jump to jump? Well, increase the performance time. This is a maximum of +20 seconds.

 

[cailuj365]

i don't understand why the 4A should be any higher... if anything, all quads should be worth less Maybe we would finally get programs if skaters had to skate for their PCS.

Being at worlds this year : SP were great. LP... omg... skate skate skate JUMP... skate skate skate JUMP repeat... then, in the last 40 seconds, skaters finally get a life and do stuff...

we are far from fabulous choreographed program like these ones... where jumps aren't the only focus but integrated into the program... oh and he was 18...

4A should be worth proportionally higher to the other quads as the 3A is to the other triples. Choreography can be valued too. Both can be true. And my god, I am not here to compare any skaters by their ages nor am I here to watch programs from 15+ years ago and long for the "glory days." I've been watching skating for longer than that, and I much prefer the present of figure skating and I look toward the future. To be honest, I also really specifically disliked this era of men's skating (2007-2010), but if it makes you feel better, 2011-2012 Patrick Chan was gold to me.

As far as the actual technical content and proposals, every year for the last decade, we have great skaters do 7 jumping passes with amazingly hard jumps, including 3 combos, AND have great choreography, AND capture the audience. My thought would be just strive to get everyone to this standard and not necessarily lower the tech content. Jumps are the element with the highest fail rate and can separate the competitors who handle the pressure from those who don't that day, so removing one just seems like a way to objectively separate people less.

Also, jump, skate, jump, skate, if you're talking about Malinin at Worlds, the whole arena still went crazy over it, didn't they? Y'all would be dying at the comments people left on some of the posted videos - comments about how Succession was the most artistic and beautiful program they'd ever seen in their lives, comparing Malinin to John Curry and not even jokingly. Even I had to laugh, because they are such completely different skaters, and absolutely no one on this board is going to put Succession in the Top 40 of most artistic programs of all time, but how people perceive artistry and choreography is honestly SO subjective.

Remove that skeleton and you have a jellyfish, a shapeless pile of slime.

So poetic.

 

[icewhite]

Nobody wants to remove the jumps and spins, it's just about them not taking over everything completely.
Of course more flexibility with GOE means more possibilities to come up with stupid judging, so it's important to improve judging as well. It's absolutely possible to tell a good spin from a bad one or a great step sequence from a mediocre one or great skating skills from decent ones - you just need the judges to follow the rules and guidelines and punish them if they don't do so.

The way I understand it Malinin would have left out his 4S, Yuma his 3F, Adam might have replaced his single 4T and 3A by his less stable but existing 4F. Malinin would still have done his 4A, 4Lz and so on, Yuma would have done all his quads and 3A, Adam would likely only have left out repetitions of jumps - or maybe I understand the proposals incorrectly, I'm not sure especially about the sequences.

Among the top 3 women Kaori would have had to change her outlet to not have that many toeloop combos. Isabeau could leave out her second single 2A (wait, I didn't watch the competition, why does she even have two?), Chaeyeon could leave out the single 2A or the second (single) 3F which gets called anyway.

Basically I would expect that we see less repetitions of jumps and more density in the jump layout and hopefully better choreo - on average the short programs tend to do better in that regard, so one would hope for the same effect in the free skates.

 

[cailuj365]

Until we know which proposals are going to go in effect, I think it's hard to know what the jump BV could potentially be, because removing a jump combination is one of the proposals and not just a solo jump. I think someone like Yuma will benefit more from these proposals because he can continue to upgrade the BV of 6 jumping passes and whichever 7th is removed is probably worth relatively less. For Ilia and maybe even Adam, they seem at their tech max (maybe, idk), so whatever jump is removed is worth relatively more points. But I'm not doing the exact math, so not sure how it will shake out at the end of the day. I mean, I do want to see good skating skills and choreographic intent in programs, but 7 jumping passes is also a test of an endurance, and I find that important as well. :/

Totally agree that we need better and more accurate spread in the GOEs for all technical elements and the skating skills. That's why I don't really like ChSeq judging. Like does a mediocre ChSeq just get its base value? Can it get negative GOE like a bad spin would? I would have given Malinin's ChSeq at least -1 all season. There was nothing really there, Shae-Lynn!

But how to internally regulate the judging is a task I do not envy the ISU to carry out...

 

[gkelly]

Totally agree that we need better and more accurate spread in the GOEs for all technical elements and the skating skills. That's why I don't really like ChSeq judging. Like does a mediocre ChSeq just get its base value?

Generally, yes.

Positive bullet points for +GOE:
Choreographic Sequences
1) element matches the music and reflects the concept/character of the program
2) creativity
3) effortless throughout with good energy, flow and execution
4) varied directions and pattern
5) good clarity and precision
6) excellent commitment and control of the whole body

Can it get negative GOE like a bad spin would?

GOE reductions:

CHOREOGRAPHIC ELEMENTS
Fall -5
Stumble -1 to -3
Does not correspond to the music -2 to -4
Loss of control/Lack of energy -1 to -3
Lack of connection between choreographic movements -2 to -3
Poor quality of movements/positions -1 to -3
Small pattern -1 to -3
Lack of creativity -1 to -3

But how to internally regulate the judging is a task I do not envy the ISU to carry out...

Yes, that is the challenge.

 

[Arigato]

Why I seldom watch the singles events anymore. So many of the skaters I see discussed and analyzed here are just names to me because I've never actually seen them skate. When I do watch a bit, I end up turning down the sound because it annoys me when their music has no connection to what they're doing, as if they only play some music while they jump because the rules say they have to.

I was thinking that watching Worlds. Jumps, too much two-foot skating and angular, jerking arms in the air like a Dallas Cowboys cheerleader. Seriously, I could have played any music with some people.

 

[4everchan]

4A should be worth proportionally higher to the other quads as the 3A is to the other triples. Choreography can be valued too. Both can be true. And my god, I am not here to compare any skaters by their ages nor am I here to watch programs from 15+ years ago and long for the "glory days." I've been watching skating for longer than that, and I much prefer the present of figure skating and I look toward the future. To be honest, I also really specifically disliked this era of men's skating (2007-2010), but if it makes you feel better, 2011-2012 Patrick Chan was gold to me.

foot work rules changed after 2010... that's why I chose these two. There are good programs from today as well I just picked two I really liked. And yes, Patrick was amazing throughout his entire career, even when adding quads.

As far as the actual technical content and proposals, every year for the last decade, we have great skaters do 7 jumping passes with amazingly hard jumps, including 3 combos, AND have great choreography, AND capture the audience. My thought would be just strive to get everyone to this standard and not necessarily lower the tech content. Jumps are the element with the highest fail rate and can separate the competitors who handle the pressure from those who don't that day, so removing one just seems like a way to objectively separate people less.

I love jumps. My problem is not with that. My problem is with the :

Also, jump, skate, jump, skate,

if you're talking about Malinin at Worlds,

Not singling him out. He is NOT the only one doing this.

the whole arena still went crazy over it, didn't they?

Yes. it was exciting to watch because he is a great jumper. So in that sense, he is actually not even the one I am referring to here... but many others who do not have his jumps nor programs of the same quality as skaters from the previous generation.

Y'all would be dying at the comments people left on some of the posted videos - comments about how Succession was the most artistic and beautiful program they'd ever seen in their lives, comparing Malinin to John Curry and not even jokingly

people are crazy

. Even I had to laugh, because they are such completely different skaters, and absolutely no one on this board is going to put Succession in the Top 40 of most artistic programs of all time,

agreed.

but how people perceive artistry and choreography is honestly SO subjective.

for sure. but even past his prime, seeing Patrick at the gala was a masterclass on blade control... perhaps the only skater getting somewhat close to this nowadays is Yuma... and no, Yuma's program wasn't super exciting either but his skating was.

I just want PROGRAMS I don't care if they have tons of jumps in them... Brian Joubert had programs

And I want skaters to earn their PCS. Look at the two examples I posted... Back then, a world champion like Jeff Buttle, praised for his PCS was getting 78. NOT 90s. It's ridiculous nowadays how some skaters who will never ever reach a Jeff or a Patrick or a Jeremy Abbott level of skating get 90s. This is why I don't want quads to be raised in value. I want PCS to remain relevant.

 

[cheerknithanson]

I still feel like better programs can be made by choosing different music. I know that won’t always be case. But I feel like different music could help develop more interesting choreography.

 

[Mathman]

I feel like this thread has come back around to the old question,"Is it sport or is it studio craft." I would compare a figure skating program to a piece of jewelry. The jumps are the diamonds. It is straightforward to determine their value based on carats, clarity, color and cut. Other elements (spins. etc.) are the lesser complementary stones -- very pretty, we would not want to disparage them.

Then there is the setting. Evaluation is more subjective, but without it all we have is a small pile of rocks.

 

[Mathman]

we are far from fabulous choreographed program like these ones... where jumps aren't the only focus but integrated into the program...

Patrick, even at 18, was master of the tools of his trade. One thing that I found of interest in both of these performances (Chan's and Buttle's) is that the audience applauded vigorously throughout, for spins, for footwaok and just in response to the building momentum.

What I remember most abput Buttle's somewhat unexpected victory in 2008 was Brian Joubert grousing about how unfair it was that he didn't win despite doing a quad. How can the ISU let someone win a world championship withput a quad? But if you look at the protocols, Brian "no transitions" Joubert edged the exquisite dancer Buttle in PCS, but Buttle without a quad clobbered the quad guy by ten points in TES.

 

[Mathman]

increasing the importance of choreo = increasing the importance of subjectivity.

It is the price we pay by being fans of a judged sport. I think it was pairs skater David Pelletier who put it this way: "If I wanted to be judged by a stopwatch I'd be going downhill on skis."

 

[4everchan]

Patrick, even at 18, was master of the tools of his trade. One thing that I found of interest in both of these performances (Chan's and Buttle's) is that the audience applauded vigorously throughout, for spins, for footwaok and just in response to the building momentum.

What I remember most abput Buttle's somewhat unexpected victory in 2008 was Brian Joubert grousing about how unfair it was that he didn't win despite doing a quad. How can the ISU let someone win a world championship withput a quad? But if you look at the [protocols, Brian "no transitions" Joubert edged the exquisite dancer Buttle in PCS, but Buttle without a quad clobbered the quad guy by ten points in TES.

GOE won it for Bottle and rightly so. Nowadays, that's also a problem... Judges give PCS to skaters with big tricks and same with GOE.

 

[Mathman]

But you know, if they're going to take away a potential jump combination and emphasize the choreographic elements (which I kind of think sends a wrong message about the direction of the sport as well as to the skaters - like, you're not good enough to do 7 jump passes with 3 combos and do choreography at the same time...

I think the greater danger is rather that the IJS tells skaters."Of course you could concentrate on non-jump elements, skating skills, and presentation, but why bother? -- you will win if you do enough big jumps and you will not win if you do not do enpugh big jumps. Eyes on the prize, young lady or young man."

What can an aspiring skater learn from Alexandra Trusova's experience at the 2022 Olympics? Answer: don''t flub your triple Axel in the short program --work like heck on it and forget everything else. Program components, balanced program -- don't make me laugh. If Trusova had hit her triple Axel she would have beaten Shcherbakova for the gold -- period, despite Anna's excellence in other aspects of fthe sport.

(By the way, I personally liked Trusova's choreography just fine. Maybe it doesn't transport us to nirvana, but still I think she gets a bad rap from a lot of critics. She is a shooting star whose brilliant presence made a huge contribution to her sport.)

 

[lariko]

It is the price we pay by being fans of a judged sport. I think it was pairs skater David Pelletier who put it this way: "If I wanted to be judged by a stopwatch I'd be going downhill on skis."

I don't like it. I really liked the new system where it was clear why people who won, won. I don't want to look at coach and fed of a skater to predict the results like in ice dance. More fairness and objectivity is better.

However, I don't think proposed changes will take away all of it, it will just help under exceptional circumstance to push Browns of the skating world a bit farther along.