- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
Inoue/Baldwin did a 2A+2A sequence at the Olympics. I didn't see a rule change for next season that prohibits this sequence specifically. Did I miss it?Mathman said:
ISU rule changes
- Thread starter Mathman
- Start date
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Keyword here is supposed.Mathman said:
'supposed' again. What is the definition of 'slightly' underrotated? Where is the Caller on all of this?
This was my argument after seeing it LIVE in Calgary. It was not a popular call at the Worlds. It seemed as if the Caller was just expecting an underrotation because of previous 3As in competition.
I think there isn't much change in the ISU regarding underrotations.
And the Flutz remains a legal jump without calling it by its true name.
Joe
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
"Slightly" means less than a quarter turn. In other words, it is underrotated, but not so badly as to be downgraded.Joesitz said:
As I understand it, the caller's only job is to say yes or no, it was more than a quarter turn underrotaed or not.
That argument was quite correct. I didn't competely understand it at the time. (That is, I did not realize that a 0 or 1 GOE meant that the judge thought it wasn't underrotated AT ALL, much less by more than a quarter turn. Both you and Antman tried to explain it to me at the time, but somehow it didn't click in my mind (what mind? LOL).)
I think the issue of technical specialists and judges "expecting" skaters to do well or poorly on certain elements is quite prevalent.
Yes, there is no change in either of these. Same rules as last year.
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hockeyfan228 said:
Question; many people do grab their leg or boot with a charlotte, but it isn't considered hand-assisted? I never really thought about that! The others I listed (fan and abrasque spirals), but we DO see many of those (poorly) done positions in addition to beillmanns so I doubt we'll see much changes in the spiral sequences, unless I read wrong and you can only do ONE beillmann position to get a level 4.
I like when skaters go from on position to the next in their spirals without dropping the free leg-the two popular transitions seem to be how Irina/Elena/others do fan position to backwards abrasque, Sasha/Shiz/others do Y-spiral to fan. Alissa does side catch to forward traveling abrasque. The skid/slide move gets credit as being difficult under COP, so I wish that those kinds of transitions also upped the level as well, because, IMO, it shows strength and blade control.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Correction
Oh, wait a minute. That's all wrong, what I said about jump sequences. The old rules allowed multiple jumps (more than three), too. So this is not a change.
Old rule: A jump sequence may consist of any number of jumps of any number of revolutions linked by steps (not more than 2 and not crossovers), hops, mazurkas and non-listed jumps immediately following each other, while maintaining the jump rhythm (knee).
New rule: A jump sequence may consist of any number of jumps of any number of revolutions that may be linked by non-listed jumps immediately following each while maintaining the jump rhythm (knee); there cannot be more than two three turns/Mohawks during the sequence; there can be no crossovers or stroking during the sequence.
I'm not sure I understand the difference. Are they trying do get skaters to do more interesting things linking the jumpos (like a toe Walley, for instance)? The "may" seems to say that this is just a change in wording to clarify the intent of the rule, rather than an actual change.
So, what about Zuranthium's 3Lutz/2Toe/Half Loop/2 Sal/2 Loop. That's a "sequence of combinations." Does that use up two of your allowed combos? Is it legal at all?
So now my question is, if skaters were allowed to do many-jump sequences all along, why didn't any of them do it?
Oh, wait a minute. That's all wrong, what I said about jump sequences. The old rules allowed multiple jumps (more than three), too. So this is not a change.
Old rule: A jump sequence may consist of any number of jumps of any number of revolutions linked by steps (not more than 2 and not crossovers), hops, mazurkas and non-listed jumps immediately following each other, while maintaining the jump rhythm (knee).
New rule: A jump sequence may consist of any number of jumps of any number of revolutions that may be linked by non-listed jumps immediately following each while maintaining the jump rhythm (knee); there cannot be more than two three turns/Mohawks during the sequence; there can be no crossovers or stroking during the sequence.
I'm not sure I understand the difference. Are they trying do get skaters to do more interesting things linking the jumpos (like a toe Walley, for instance)? The "may" seems to say that this is just a change in wording to clarify the intent of the rule, rather than an actual change.
So, what about Zuranthium's 3Lutz/2Toe/Half Loop/2 Sal/2 Loop. That's a "sequence of combinations." Does that use up two of your allowed combos? Is it legal at all?
So now my question is, if skaters were allowed to do many-jump sequences all along, why didn't any of them do it?
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I might be remembering wrong. I looked just now for such a rule and couldn't find one. Aki Sawada did 2A+2A sequence in the junior GP final last year.hockeyfan228 said:
Still, I do remember the discussion when Michelle came up with her 4 triple Axels in a row, that there was some reason she couldn't do that in a competitive program (besides the fact that she was taking too many steps between).
Anybody?
MM
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
Mathman said:I might be remembering wrong. I looked just now for such a rule and couldn't find one. Aki Sawada did 2A+2A sequence in the junior GP final last year.
Still, I do remember the discussion when Michelle came up with her 4 triple Axels in a row, that there was some reason she couldn't do that in a competitive program (besides the fact that she was taking too many steps between).
Anybody?
MM
Just laughed at your typo mathman - the thought of Michelle coming out with four triple axels in a row
and a Zayak violation to boot!!!!I'm not looking in any rulebooks to know for sure but i thought the 2A/2A sequence was something that was introduced specifically to pairs and pairs only because of the rule about not being allowed to repeate the same triple again and 2As suddenly being brought within the Zayak rule. I thought for singles skating two double axels couldn't be a sequence?
Ant
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Mathman - We love MK but triple axels?
What could be wrong with doing two axels of any rotations in a row (i.e., without any step in between)? It works choreographically. It demonstrates the skater's command on the ice. Three consective axels in a row would be choreographically the best of bravura skating. Luv it!!!
Joe
What could be wrong with doing two axels of any rotations in a row (i.e., without any step in between)? It works choreographically. It demonstrates the skater's command on the ice. Three consective axels in a row would be choreographically the best of bravura skating. Luv it!!!
Joe
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
That would have been a Zayak violation. But she could have done 4 double axels in a row, if she had no more than two three turns or mohawks.Mathman said:
I never realized that sequences weren't restricted. I obviously didn't read that rule carefully.
I wonder why the rule was changed : I don't think I've ever seen a sequence with more than two (charted) jumps.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
With all these posts on jump sequences, and they are good posts, one has to realize that the Free skate is no longer Free!! And from a sportsman's point of view I think that is probably the best way to go.
Problem with today's skaters are that they hold back on their exhibitions where they can really be FREE.
Joe
Problem with today's skaters are that they hold back on their exhibitions where they can really be FREE.
Joe
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
The interesting thing about these rule changes is looking to see who is going to be favored by them.
In pairs, it looks like Obertas & Slavnov to me, especially when you get into the meat and potatoes of the Scale of Values and the GOE guidelines. Here's why:
1. The throw triple flip (or triple lutz) has been upgraded to 5.5 base points from 5.0 (it used to be 5.0, same as the triple loop). O&S and S&S both do the 3FTh. Since they are still one symbol, I'm assuming you can't do both a throw flip and throw lutz in the same program. If you can, it would be even more interesting.
2. The rules for 'extra levels' are downgraded on twists. Last year to get level four, you had to have an 180 degree split. That is no longer mentioned. And the base values for triple twists and quad twists have been raised. O&S have a quad twist and were doing it regularly in the 2004 2005 season. They tend to have a chest crash however many twists they do. "Awkward catch" is deliberately limited to -1 penalty.
Additionally, several types of takeoffs for twists have been added. In addition to the flip/lutz entrance, we now have points for a toe entrance and an axel entrance,with the explanation that these entrances used to be done in the past. Does anyone know who used to do these entrances? I will have to check out vids of G&G and pairs of that era-perhaps Cherkosova/Shakrai from earlier times?
3. To add insult to injury, the twistmeisters can now do triple twists in the SP as well. This, however, will aid all the Chinese pairs in addition to O&S.
4. Anti-Zhang's points. Unison between jumps is now penalized as much as -3. If you recall some of the Zhangs 2A3T combo's, they didn't have the slightest bit of unison. And they had no penalty. Not now.
5. Shen & Zhao penalty. One skill has been removed from the free program. Nearly all pairs have been doing an inside death spiral and an outside death spiral. Outside spiral get an extra point. S&Z are the only pair that does a forward outside spiral so they do both a forward outside and a back outside spiral, giving them one base point above the rest. Poof. That point is now gone. Plus this favors teams with stamina problems (PetTikhs) some too, but it's a double edged sword. Teams with no stamina problems can now move one jump or throw into the second half of the program for the extra 1.1 multiplier/bonus.
6. Both skaters have weak jumps--2 if both fall. (Used to be just -1, whichever happened, one or two falls) This is probably logical.
7. Loss of rhythm between 2 jumps-this is a typical Pang & Tong difficulty. She has little bitty fast rotating jumps. He has big slow rotating jumps. If one or the other isn't falling, there is either a unison or a rhythm problem or both. Penalties are now more severe, or at least more explicitly severe.
8. For Marcoux & Buntin, they are double twisters and do 3Sth and 3Lpth. Plus they had superior death spirals for high GOE. Now they get only one death spiral. They had a 3Tw, but like I&B, it wasn't a very good one
9. Dube & Davison-increased explicit penalties for irregularities in lifts-something they had a lot of this season, but which I hope they will have less of. And since they are just up from juniors, it's only a year ago that they competed with a 13 skill program. They are also double twisters though.
10. Inoue & Baldwin-they lose .5 advantage on the 3ATh, and they are double twisters. However, they used to do a triple twist, if not well. They are probably going to have to brush it off and use it again, at least in one of the 2 programs if not both.
However, it must be remembered that no one has been falling on jumps like Julia Obertas this year. To take advantage of all this, she has to get her act together.
While we're on the subject of twists, after watching the Novice pairs at Liberty, I don't think that higher values for twists are called for. When you have a little bitty girl and a big guy he can throw her higher. Some of the novice pairs had absolutely huge twists on the order of the Chinese. Twist height is mostly about the same skills as the caber toss in the Scottish games or the shotput. It's not a real skating skill.
In pairs, it looks like Obertas & Slavnov to me, especially when you get into the meat and potatoes of the Scale of Values and the GOE guidelines. Here's why:
1. The throw triple flip (or triple lutz) has been upgraded to 5.5 base points from 5.0 (it used to be 5.0, same as the triple loop). O&S and S&S both do the 3FTh. Since they are still one symbol, I'm assuming you can't do both a throw flip and throw lutz in the same program. If you can, it would be even more interesting.
2. The rules for 'extra levels' are downgraded on twists. Last year to get level four, you had to have an 180 degree split. That is no longer mentioned. And the base values for triple twists and quad twists have been raised. O&S have a quad twist and were doing it regularly in the 2004 2005 season. They tend to have a chest crash however many twists they do. "Awkward catch" is deliberately limited to -1 penalty.
Additionally, several types of takeoffs for twists have been added. In addition to the flip/lutz entrance, we now have points for a toe entrance and an axel entrance,with the explanation that these entrances used to be done in the past. Does anyone know who used to do these entrances? I will have to check out vids of G&G and pairs of that era-perhaps Cherkosova/Shakrai from earlier times?
3. To add insult to injury, the twistmeisters can now do triple twists in the SP as well. This, however, will aid all the Chinese pairs in addition to O&S.
4. Anti-Zhang's points. Unison between jumps is now penalized as much as -3. If you recall some of the Zhangs 2A3T combo's, they didn't have the slightest bit of unison. And they had no penalty. Not now.
5. Shen & Zhao penalty. One skill has been removed from the free program. Nearly all pairs have been doing an inside death spiral and an outside death spiral. Outside spiral get an extra point. S&Z are the only pair that does a forward outside spiral so they do both a forward outside and a back outside spiral, giving them one base point above the rest. Poof. That point is now gone. Plus this favors teams with stamina problems (PetTikhs) some too, but it's a double edged sword. Teams with no stamina problems can now move one jump or throw into the second half of the program for the extra 1.1 multiplier/bonus.
6. Both skaters have weak jumps--2 if both fall. (Used to be just -1, whichever happened, one or two falls) This is probably logical.
7. Loss of rhythm between 2 jumps-this is a typical Pang & Tong difficulty. She has little bitty fast rotating jumps. He has big slow rotating jumps. If one or the other isn't falling, there is either a unison or a rhythm problem or both. Penalties are now more severe, or at least more explicitly severe.
8. For Marcoux & Buntin, they are double twisters and do 3Sth and 3Lpth. Plus they had superior death spirals for high GOE. Now they get only one death spiral. They had a 3Tw, but like I&B, it wasn't a very good one
9. Dube & Davison-increased explicit penalties for irregularities in lifts-something they had a lot of this season, but which I hope they will have less of. And since they are just up from juniors, it's only a year ago that they competed with a 13 skill program. They are also double twisters though.
10. Inoue & Baldwin-they lose .5 advantage on the 3ATh, and they are double twisters. However, they used to do a triple twist, if not well. They are probably going to have to brush it off and use it again, at least in one of the 2 programs if not both.
However, it must be remembered that no one has been falling on jumps like Julia Obertas this year. To take advantage of all this, she has to get her act together.
While we're on the subject of twists, after watching the Novice pairs at Liberty, I don't think that higher values for twists are called for. When you have a little bitty girl and a big guy he can throw her higher. Some of the novice pairs had absolutely huge twists on the order of the Chinese. Twist height is mostly about the same skills as the caber toss in the Scottish games or the shotput. It's not a real skating skill.
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2006
DORISPULASKI said:
Very interesting post, I really
to the insite of allot of the members here.I know this is probably obvious, but doesn't the hight have a great deal to do with whether the tinny little lady can land that? I know Rene is not "so tiny" (stellar figure IMO
and I can see the strength in her legs that make it seem more likely to land that) and that makes them slightly more impressive to me they can pull off the 3ta - do the judges see it that way?
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
That's what I wish I knew.Joesitz said:
But I finally found the rule about it (ISU Communication #1319, page 13):
"Axel type jumps in a row without any connecting hop, mazurka or any other non-losted jump is not a jump sequence [or combo], but two separate jumps."
So you can't do two double Axels right in a row, but it's OK if you put a bunny hop in between?
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
What DORISPULASKI said 
I've seen Sasha Cohen do a Charlotte on an inside edge while going from her forward CoE spiral into a Charlotte in her Don't Rain On My Parade exhib, so it is possible! And Naomi Nari Nam did one on an edge didn't she?
Doris P, thank you for all that eval... this is fascinating but I need people who know more than I do to help out!
Doris P, thank you for all that eval... this is fascinating but I need people who know more than I do to help out!
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
The takeoff for an axel is forward, and the landing for the axel is backwards. Two in a row can't, by definition, be a combo, because a combo can only be created when the landing edge/leg/direction of jump N and the take-off edge/leg/direction of jump N+ are the same, i.e., the N+1 jump is a toe loop or loop. They can't be in sequence without some time of transitional move in between, and I don't know if it's possible to do any of the legal steps for other sequences (three-turn, mohawk) from an axel landing to an axel take-off. (I don't have my jump "cheat sheet" with me right now.)Mathman said:
That's why they'd be two separate jumps.
DORISPULASKI said:
Denny and Abbott did throw triple lutz and flip in their long program at Liberty. And Denny/Frazier tried doubles of each in novice, unsuccessfully. Evidently Kerry Leitch thinks it's legal.
However, if the twist is seriously flawed, it's likely that additional penalties would apply, not just the "awkward catch" one, e.g., a crash is likely to involve one or more of the following:
Lady is not caught in the air before landing
Lady is not caught at the waist
Lady lands on two feet
Man exits on two feet
Underrotated and downgraded or Underrotated up to 1/4 rev. (especially on a quad attempt)
I seem to remember Valova/Vassiliev doing a double axel twist at the 1988 Olympics, and probably elsewhere.
Mathman said:
More likely a mazurka or tap-toe, i.e., half or quarter toe loop, to get you from the backward landing to forward for the takeoff. For a bunny hop, you'd have to turn forward first and then hop, losing all rotation, and start the rotation again for the second axel.
Axel-tap toe-axel is pretty common here at the preliminary and pre-preliminary levels. I can do it with waltz jumps. I'll have to see if it would work with a bunny hop instead. I'm guessing I could force it but it would feel awkward. I'd be afraid to try with axels. The tap-toe or mazurka, I'd be willing to try but since I haven't been practicing axels lately I wouldn't expect to succeed.
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