ISU rule changes

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Doris - Very nice having you back. I, and I am sure many others, rely on your Pairs expertise. You've got to write a book on the scoring of Pairs some day.

By the way, do you think Piseev was behind the changes favoring O&S. The Russian Federation does not want to lose Pairs in any championships. It has become their legasy.

Joe

 

[dorispulaski]

gkelly, I'll have to check out V&V's LP's, then! (edited-they were doing the axel entry at 1987 worlds. I just downloaded the vid.) This entry does deserve extra credit as it does involve some skating from the lady.

btw, I was at Liberty as well, and not having read communication 1396 at that time was much surprised to see 3twists in the senior SP and 2 toe throw jumps in the LP by 2 Florida pairs. However, as I did not see the judge's protocols, I did not want to say for sure that the 3 flip throw and the 3 lutz throw were both legal in the same program. For all I know, the judges may not have given credit for the second throw! Also, I was questioning what I thought I saw, wondering whether they had done a 3 toe throw, and not a flip, as it appeared to me.

And if they are legal, it's a headscratcher as to how the computer will handle it. After all, the caller only has the option 3FTh. And 2 identical throws are not allowed. But as you say, Leitch has evidently decided it's OK.

SeanBu As to John and Rena and the throw 3A, my guess is that they are scheduled to get whacked with the substantial deduction for 'man's position' as John uses the Chinese throw method. There is no evidence that they are getting any particular favors from the judges on the 3Ath. Rena is small, but John is a small guy. There's a clip of them teaching Campbell Brown to skate and it's amazing how the news staff seems so huge compared to both of them.

And as to tiny ladies landing twists, the man is REQUIRED to catch her at the waist before she lands, so it isn't a great task for her to land it, however small she is, provided he does his job.

If you are old enough to remember the Beverly Hillbillies, it's a form of possum juggling. Or maybe that Australian bar sport dwarf tossing.

And Joe, I would not be at all surprised if Piseev had something to say about it! However not!

After all, last year's pairs' rule changes, which basically made the 3t 2A sequence combined with either a 2A as a single jump (Pang & Tong) or a 3T (Shen & Zhao and the Zhangs) both illegal. It was this very rule change that cause Zhao's injury trying to master the 3T 3T sequence. Of course these things sometimes backfire.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

don't have the technical know-how of skating but I think a combo is two jumps in a row and a sequence is when you have a jump, maybe some half turn or something and then another one...? (techies correct me if I flubbed)

I know the difference between a combo and a sequence, but thank you. My question is about the efficacy of this rule.

Does a sequence take up one of your multy-jump passes? I had thought it did. If so, it is just an aesthetic change, not a concrete one. Does anyone know the answer to this question?

 

[hockeyfan228]

Does a sequence take up one of your multy-jump passes?

Yes.

 

[SeaniBu]

SeanBu As to John and Rena and the throw 3A, my guess is that they are scheduled to get whacked with the substantial deduction for 'man's position' as John uses the Chinese throw method. There is no evidence that they are getting any particular favors from the judges on the 3Ath. Rena is small, but John is a small guy. There's a clip of them teaching Campbell Brown to skate and it's amazing how the news staff seems so huge compared to both of them.

You are a wonderful wealth of info. Please post more often. I would also be a fool for not have mentioning that John is a smaller guy, but in comparison, I would have to say she is a little lager than a majority of the ladies in pairs. weight wise. I think that is what gives here figure such nice lines. Katie is one I think of as being a little more muscular (I mean that in such a good way) than others and I cant really think of any more muscular. What am I missing here? I know the comments of how John throws Rene have been mentioned (I had not heard the Chinese throw to be exact) but is it not taken into consideration the size of the Man doing the throwing? That seems a little ....ah ....not fair to a genetic point of view. Anyhoo, is that true?

Where are you getting these downloads?

 

[tully]

You're probably right. I haven't seen a full Charlotte on an edge....

sasha does them occasionally in exhibitions (see marshall's fall 2005 DROMP on youtube)

 

[antmanb]

Additionally, several types of takeoffs for twists have been added. In addition to the flip/lutz entrance, we now have points for a toe entrance and an axel entrance,with the explanation that these entrances used to be done in the past. Does anyone know who used to do these entrances? I will have to check out vids of G&G and pairs of that era-perhaps Cherkosova/Shakrai from earlier times?

Still reading through your great post but just wanted to jump in to say (and i'm relying purely on, i think , Robin Cousins' commentary since i didn't know much about pairs elements at the time), Eltsova & Bushkov, before they made it to the top did an LP in truly hideous peach coloured costumes at one point in the program they set up what looked like a throw double axel but it went up higher than normal and not as far and before she landed they caught hands...to me it looked like a variation on a throw double axel rather than an "axel twist lift" which is what i think it was described as.

I can't imagine an axel take off being very easy for a twist lift...you'll be able to spot those who have been attempting it by looking for the male paris skaters with black eyes from get knee'd in the face!

Ant

 

[antmanb]

That's what I wish I knew.

But I finally found the rule about it (ISU Communication #1319, page 13):

"Axel type jumps in a row without any connecting hop, mazurka or any other non-losted jump is not a jump sequence [or combo], but two separate jumps."

So you can't do two double Axels right in a row, but it's OK if you put a bunny hop in between?

You could put a side step in between them. Land the first double axel, open your body out a little to the side, plant the left toepick jump up but don't rotate land (still sideways on) on the right toe pick and simultaneously push onto the LFO edge and take off for the second double axel. If the number of jumps really aren't limited in a sequence then what is there to stop someone doing 4 double axels with the side hops in between and getting 10.56 as a base base mark (4 lots of 3.3 for the double axels multiplied by the 0.8 sequence multiplier).

Ant

 

[Mathman]

I know the difference between a combo and a sequence, but thank you. My question is about the efficacy of this rule.

Does a sequence take up one of your multi-jump passes? I had thought it did. If so, it is just an aesthetic change, not a concrete one. Does anyone know the answer to this question?

I think the reason that it is a real change and not just an aesthetic change is because of that .8 multiplier. (Thanks to Hockeyfan for being the first to explain this to me, post 8 above.)

If you did a second solo quad and it was scored as a (failed) combo, you would still get full value (9.0) for the quad as the first jump of a combo.

But if it is scored as a failed sequence, then, because of the .8 multiplier applied to all jumps of a sequence, you only get 7.2 points for the quad.

Now that I understand it, I think the change is a good one.

MM

 

[antmanb]

I think the reason that it is a real change and not just an aesthetic change is because of that .8 multiplier. (Thanks to Hockeyfan for being the first to explain this to me, post 8 above.)

If you did a second solo quad and it was scored as a (failed) combo, you would still get full value (9.0) for the quad as the first jump of a combo.

But if it is scored as a failed sequence, then, because of the .8 multiplier applied to all jumps of a sequence, you only get 7.2 points for the quad.

Now that I understand it, I think the change is a good one.

MM

But i thought, and i am likely wrong, that you were only allowed one jump sequence in the program and so what if you fall on a quad that should have been a combo not a sequence and you then properly execute your 3toe/3salchow sequence? Is the second sqeuence counted?

Actually the more i think about it, the more i think i'm wrong and thinking of only being allowed one three jump combo rather than one sequence!

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

sasha does them occasionally in exhibitions (see marshall's fall 2005 DROMP on youtube)

If this is true, and I can believe Sasha capable of charlotte on an edge, then the next step would be to put the charlotte into a spin. It would be mind blowing and put the Bielman to rest.

Joe

 

[antmanb]

If this is true, and I can believe Sasha capable of charlotte on an edge, then the next step would be to put the charlotte into a spin. It would be mind blowing and put the Bielman to rest.

Joe

But Joe can you imagine the number half-arsed attempts at the charlotte spin we would then see - how many attempts would end up looking like a spinning dog-peeing?!!

I think i'd rather see bad Biellmann spins than bad Charolotte spins!

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

But Joe can you imagine the number half-arsed attempts at the charlotte spin we would then see - how many attempts would end up looking like a spinning dog-peeing?!!

I think i'd rather see bad Biellmann spins than bad Charolotte spins!

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

These posts on jump sequences and combos are very informative and for me fascinating.

My question is do the infractions to the rules get into the computer which comes up with the errors?? I was thinking of Plush in the GPF in NKH where he put an extra jump pass into his program and was penalized.

I know the Tech Asst made the call of the jump without thinking it wrong, but was it the computer which tallied the number of passes? or was this second thoughts later by humans?

Joe

 

[hockeyfan228]

My question is do the infractions to the rules get into the computer which comes up with the errors?? I was thinking of Plush in the GPF in NKH where he put an extra jump pass into his program and was penalized.

The ISU software does. The reason there was an issue at Japanese Nationals, where Oda performed an illegal jump that was later nullified, giving Takahashi the title and Olympic berth, was that the Japanese Federation decided to use its own software, and they didn't program the rule correctly.

 

[dorispulaski]

I can't imagine an axel take off being very easy for a twist lift...you'll be able to spot those who have been attempting it by looking for the male paris skaters with black eyes from get knee'd in the face!

Ant

Ant, That does sound a lot like a somewhat screwed up axel twist lift.

And you've got to be right about the black eyes. I remember the interview with Orscher and Lucash where they were asked what their least favorite skill was, and it was the twist, according to Garrett, who said that he had lots of injuries from it (broken noses, I think). I'd say, practice it only in a goalie hockey helmet, the kind with the metal cage over the face, but probably then the lady would crack her elbow on the helmet!

I'm going to spend some time watching old pair vids looking for a really good clip to make of an axel twist lift.

The other versions are just nothing-three different ways of picking in, and which edge you're on. If the girl is tiny, often it is all for show, too. Check it out. Sometimes the girl goes just as high, no matter whether she has an effective pick in or not, provided the guy is a big bruiser.

 

[dorispulaski]

I know the comments of how John throws Rene have been mentioned (I had not heard the Chinese throw to be exact) but is it not taken into consideration the size of the Man doing the throwing? That seems a little ....ah ....not fair to a genetic point of view. Anyhoo, is that true?

Where are you getting these downloads?

There's no handicap given by the ISU for size, other than Novice, Junior, and Senior, ratings, which keeps 9 year old girls out of the mix.

And the Chinese are often said to fling the lady, accompanied by a large kick, sort of, of their back leg. Check out early Shen and Zhao vids versus BerSikh vids. And on message boards, there was much snarking about the difference in technique and whether it ought to matter in COP by fans of Chinese vs. fans of Russian pairs.

Tong of Pang and Tong manages to get that high kick without making it look awkward, a huge plus, I think.

Downloads, I get from rinkside, youtube, and the ever popular fsvids. Olympic vids, which is what the Campbell Brown vid was, are in the restricted section of fsvids. You have to upload a vid or two and register to enter the restricted sections.

The link is

http://www.fsvids.9.forumer.com/fsvids
Read the Rules
Go to the thread you are interested in. Click on the link you want to download and follow the directions that come up on the page that next shows. If you have any problems, go to the Video Help section of the forum. There is also info and TV and web broadcast scheduling, doing streaming video, recording streaming video, and other interesting viewing stuff for the obsessive skating fan (ME)

http://www.youtube.com
search by skater name, and click to view. If you want to download and save the file, I can give you directions.

http://www.rinkside.org
you have to follow the directions, download software, and do the filesharing thing with DC++

 

[antmanb]

Ant, That does sound a lot like a somewhat screwed up axel twist lift.

And you've got to be right about the black eyes. I remember the interview with Orscher and Lucash where they were asked what their least favorite skill was, and it was the twist, according to Garrett, who said that he had lots of injuries from it (broken noses, I think). I'd say, practice it only in a goalie hockey helmet, the kind with the metal cage over the face, but probably then the lady would crack her elbow on the helmet!

I'm going to spend some time watching old pair vids looking for a really good clip to make of an axel twist lift.

The other versions are just nothing-three different ways of picking in, and which edge you're on. If the girl is tiny, often it is all for show, too. Check it out. Sometimes the girl goes just as high, no matter whether she has an effective pick in or not, provided the guy is a big bruiser.

It doesn't seem the rules are mentioning it but i've also heard that an effective entrance to the split twist is a loop entry so the lady performs a falling leaf split going into it which strikes as being more difficult than either the toe loop or lutz/flip entrance becaue of the toe assist in those.

In the axel twist lifts are ladies caught like on a regular split twist?

Ant

 

[hockeyfan228]

But i thought, and i am likely wrong, that you were only allowed one jump sequence in the program and so what if you fall on a quad that should have been a combo not a sequence and you then properly execute your 3toe/3salchow sequence? Is the second sqeuence counted?

The rule is "There may be up to three jump combinations or jump sequences in the Long Program."

The second (or third) sequence would count.

Doh, and I just realized why no one is doing those multi-jump sequences: only the base values of the two hardest jumps are added and then multiplied by .8. The other jumps don't count.

 

[Mathman]

...I just realized why no one is doing those multi-jump sequences: only the base value of the two hardest jumps are added and then multiplied by .8. The other jumps don't count.

Little by little it's all coming back to me I only have a couple of months left to re-memorized Communications 1319, 1342 and 1396 before the season starts.

But I still want to see someone do a 4 double-Axel sequence. Give them 5.3 points for the last two and an extra +2 GOE for an unusual entrance!