ISU rule changes

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Little by little it's all coming back to me I only have a couple of months left to re-memorized Communications 1319, 1342 and 1396 before the season starts.

But are you really going to realize this as you are watching or wait for the details to show up the next day?

 

[Mathman]

It just occurred to me that this new Sequence rule could address, in some cases, the problem of the high point value of a fully rotated quad with a fall.

Suppose you planned 4T+3T, 4T as your first two elements. Your intended base value is 22 points for the two passes.

But instead you fall on your first quad and can't do to 3T. Then you hit your solo quad OK.

So you get 9.0 - 3.0 - 1.0 = 5.0 for the first element and 7.2 for the second, for a total of 12.2. The penalty for the fall now totals 9.8 points.

But all is not lost! You quick-wittedly tack a 2T onto your second quad. This restores the combo and recovers the full 9.0 for the second quad, plus an extra 1.3. Your new total is now 15.3.

MM

 

[Mathman]

But are you really going to realize this as you are watching or wait for the details to show up the next day?

You got me there! When I watch skating on TV, it is hard for me to tell whether the performer did a triple toe or a triple flip, much less keep track of whether he already did two triple loops in combination or not.

In fact, I find that the more I try to "keep score at home," the less I can sit back and enjoy the actual performances.

This is all the more the case when I see an event in person, where I don't have the benefit of the expert commentary from Uncle Dick and crew.

So I am content to settle in with my Diet Lime Coke -- the two-liter bottles with Michelle on them left over from the short-lived Olympic promotion (fortunately I bought 1000 of them) -- and watch the show.

Then the next day, my pleasure is doubled as I have all those delicious numbers to dive into!

MM

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

.

In fact, I find that the more I try to "keep score at home," the less I can sit back and enjoy the actual performances.MM

I could not agree with you more. I can keep the details going while watching but I get caught up in exciting performance (e.g. Kimmie in Calgary) or lose interest in a less than expected performance (Rochette in Calgary). when that happens it's to h--l with the details. I'm still a Whole Package Viewer. the details tomorrow if I am up to it. Actually, the whole package has been working for me as far as the results of the recent competitions have shown. A few details like Lambiel's 3A and Sokolova's results were kind of eyebrow raising for me but not much else.

It would be nice if ABC or ESPN commentators who have the chit sheets of the skater's planned elements to shout them out, like a 4Lx4Lp will be his opening followed by footwork in a circle into a 3A., etc., etc., and another commentator announcing that the Tech Specialist oks those jumps.

Joe

 

[SeaniBu]

There's no handicap given by the ISU for size, other than Novice, Junior, and Senior, ratings, which keeps 9 year old girls out of the mix.

And I get that when they are judging they don't take this into consideration, say - she is bigger, he is smaller, they didn't get the hight, but the execution was good so we will score the same as the big guy and small lady because it is equally impressive from the difficulty factor?

And the Chinese are often said to fling the lady, accompanied by a large kick, sort of, of their back leg.

I had seen the difference, just thought that type of thing would be considered a difference in style. I see what you are pointing out that the style will be factored into the score. that is interesting, and at face value seems a little unfair, but I am learning.

Downloads, I get from rinkside, youtube, and the ever popular fsvids. Olympic vids, which is what the Campbell Brown vid was, are in the restricted section of fsvids. You have to upload a vid or two and register to enter the restricted sections.

Been to 3 of these, one I just joined and had not been aware of the restricted sections.

As always thank you!

 

[dorispulaski]

Valova and Vasiliev's Worlds 1988 LP has a good example of an axel entry twist. The catch is just the same as other types of twists (analogous to jumps-the takeoff is different, but the landing is always the same if the skater is doing it right).

 

[hockeyfan228]

But I still want to see someone do a 4 double-Axel sequence. Give them 5.3 points for the last two and an extra +2 GOE for an unusual entrance!

And a MEGA transitions score

 

[Theatregirl1122]

I think the reason that it is a real change and not just an aesthetic change is because of that .8 multiplier. (Thanks to Hockeyfan for being the first to explain this to me, post 8 above.)

If you did a second solo quad and it was scored as a (failed) combo, you would still get full value (9.0) for the quad as the first jump of a combo.

But if it is scored as a failed sequence, then, because of the .8 multiplier applied to all jumps of a sequence, you only get 7.2 points for the quad.

Now that I understand it, I think the change is a good one.

MM

Thank you, I had forgotten that both jumps in a sequence were multiplied by .8 (as if it were harder to do two solo jumps than to do two jumps in sequence).

This is a much bigger penalty especialy for a quad.

 

[antmanb]

Valova and Vasiliev's Worlds 1988 LP has a good example of an axel entry twist. The catch is just the same as other types of twists (analogous to jumps-the takeoff is different, but the landing is always the same if the skater is doing it right).

That's where Eltsova & Bushkov's must have been a strange variation of a thorw double axel because i think they had already done a regular split twist and only did one thrown jump aside from the double axel type one.

Without being able to download Valova and Vasiliev's can you tell us whether it was single/double/triple? Also can you describe the technique in performaning the twist - i would have thought the technique for a throw axel (hand to hand and usually lady's left arm on the partner's shoulder and the partner's right hand at her hip) wouldn't be too good since that seems to give the jump length rather than the height required for the twist. Does it go up with the man's hands on the ladies hips?

Ant

 

[antmanb]

Cooments

Ok so i've finally gotten round to reading the communication (i'm procrastinating!) and i have a couple of questions:

1. Section I number 4 says that it "allows retrogressions in step sequences of singles and pairs short programs" what is a retrogrssion and what does this mean for the step sequences?

2. Have the writers of the CoP actually been reading our threads? There is a clarification at the end in section V number1 reagrding Sitspin positions which says:

"A sit position is obtained when the angle of the skating leg and the knee is not more than 90 degrees; if this angle is more than 90 degrees, the position is considered as an upright.

If the buttocks are higher than the knee, there must be a GOE reduction from -1 to -3 (depending on the height and the duration of such position)"

So a couple of observations - if he plans to come back to competitive elligible skating, Plushcenko better get working on that sit spin because on a bad day he might risk getting his sitspin called an upright (though given the pluschenko love he'd probably get credited with a difficult variation of an upright ) or get the reduction on the GOE for his buttocks above knee position.

A more important observation (and i'd have to go away and check tapes to confirm) is that i've noticed that most skaters (i'm thinking mostly men here) can transtition from the back sit on the traditional outside edge moving it onto an inside edge without adjusting the position of the spin, but on the more difficult forward sitspin that goes from the LI edge to LO edge nearly all of them have to rise a little bit to get the weight moved onto the right part of the blade to spin. My question is - don't they all move their buttocks above the spinning knee or at least have more than a 90 degree angle?

If it does then it will be intersting to see how the spins are called/graded and if people will risk the forward sitspin edge change anymore?

Ant

 

[antmanb]

PS i can't seem to change the typo in the title so you'll have to read my cooments (!) from here on in!!!

Ant

 

[gkelly]

1. Section I number 4 says that it "allows retrogressions in step sequences of singles and pairs short programs" what is a retrogrssion and what does this mean for the step sequences?

It means that the steps can go back the way they came (along the same line or in a loop or zigzag). E.g., if you're doing a step sequence starting at the west end of the rink and heading east, it's now allowed for some of the steps to head west.

 

[Mathman]

Thank you, I had forgotten that both jumps in a sequence were multiplied by .8 (as if it were harder to do two solo jumps than to do two jumps in sequence).

I think the point of the .8 multiplier is to encourage skaters to do a genuine triple-triple combo if they can, while still allowing them to make full use of all their jumping passes if they can't.

Example: Suppose your jump layout (lady) is

3Lz+2T
3F+2Lo+2Lo
3Lo
3Lz
3F
2A
7th pass ?

You've done 5 triples and the required Axel.

You have repeated the two highest-scoring jumps, the Lutz and the flip.

What should you do now?

(a) 3S+3T combo, if you can (9.4 points, including second half bonus).

(b) 3S + half loop + 3T sequence (7.5 points).

(c) Solo 3S (5.0 points).

 

[Mathman]

One thing I have noticed in all these rule changes is that it is mostly pairs, rather than singles skating, where the ISU seems to be constantly coming up with new refinements in the CoP.

I suppose this is because pairs scoring is more subtle -- you have to be looking for various holds, etc., not to mention unison and complement.

In singles skating, despite all these pages of rules, it is still pretty simple. You get 4.0 for a triple toe, 4.5 for a triple Salchow, etc. Then you pick up an odd point here and there for spins, footwork and spirals. Then the judges weigh in with the artistic mark, and most points wins.

MM

 

[R.D.]

...and that's where subjectivity creeps in. At least IMO we're on the right track.

 

[Mathman]

"A sit position is obtained when the angle of the skating leg and the knee is not more than 90 degrees; if this angle is more than 90 degrees, the position is considered as an upright.

If the buttocks are higher than the knee, there must be a GOE reduction from -1 to -3 (depending on the height and the duration of such position)"

Looking really closely (protractor in hand, LOL) at a bunch of sit spins, it seems to me that the requirement of 90 degerees is not very difficult to attain. In this picture of Plushenko, for instance, he seems to be pretty close to 90 degrees, but he's not "sitting" at all. His buttocks are way higher than his knee (-3 GOE, LOL).

http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/photo/2006/02/16/PH2006021602250.jpg

In this picture, his behind appears to be almost as low as his (skating) knee.

http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/topstory/sports/plushenko_evgeni041218.jpg

Here is Todd Eldredge. Nice and low, plus his free leg is not too far off from being parallel to the ice. I don't like his rounded back, however.

http://www.leigh-i-am.com/Skateam96/toddsitspin.jpg

Michelle. To me, this is just a beautiful position. Nice back. Her rear is about the same level as her knee. Could be lower, but not without sacrificing some other aspect of the position.

http://cdn.channel.aol.com/aolnews_photos/06/02/20060212065509990002

Emily Hughes. I like this one, too. The hand assist allows her both to keep her bottom low and her extended leg straight. (The rounded back can't be helped in this position.)

http://www.dianesrink.com/sarah/emily/217/practice3.jpg

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

That first picture of Plush shows what we used to call a stylized spin. Neither sits nor straight up. It is very effective in exotica skating. It was in every Ice Show, but the sits spin went all the way down.

Some skaters years ago would do an 'L' spin and go down into sit, arise to 'L' and go down to sit again. It took a lot of energy.

One of the reasons some skaters avoid a true sits spin (the way Jackson Haines invented it) was because it takes a lot of energy on coming up from the sit. Nowadays, one needs energy at the end of a program for the quad lutz.

Joe

 

[Zuranthium]

I hate sit spins. They will not work properly for me.

 

[dorispulaski]

One thing I have noticed in all these rule changes is that it is mostly pairs, rather than singles skating, where the ISU seems to be constantly coming up with new refinements in the CoP.

I suppose this is because pairs scoring is more subtle -- you have to be looking for various holds, etc., not to mention unison and complement.

In singles skating, despite all these pages of rules, it is still pretty simple. You get 4.0 for a triple toe, 4.5 for a triple Salchow, etc. Then you pick up an odd point here and there for spins, footwork and spirals. Then the judges weigh in with the artistic mark, and most points wins.

MM

Mathman, One thing I have noticed in all these pair rule changes is that they make me strongly desire to have a really fine tinfoil hat.

It is amazing how the changes parallel the strengths of the Russian champion pair at the time the rules are promulgated. It was first said (allbeit with great snark) that the original COP version was set up to insure that B&S would have clearly won in 2002. However, B&S's strengths were not T&M's! T&M had (relative to B&S or S&P) weak lifts, rather expressionless skating, and triple twists that were not remarkably high and often had a chest crash, but they did have both a 3S and a 3T and great consistency and great purity of line in the landing of throws. Voila! We had rules where two axel entry lasso lifts are no longer allowed, twists are deemphasized, and the rules about jumps are gerrymandered.

But wait! They retire. And the current Russian pairs of Murkhortova & Trankov, Petrova & Tikhonov and Obertas & Slavnov have very different strengths than either T&M or B&S- they have super twists, for one thing, and a throw triple flip. And now we have rules where twists have more points and more importance, and triple flips get more points.

However, if I were the PetTikhs I would be miffed. No one ever changed the rules to make it easier for them!

There are just fewer skills to manipulate in singles, so they don't, that much.

And I think the American and Canadian federations have totally not grasped the concept that the best way to cheat is to make sure that the rules favor your competitors-and it's even legal. who can blame Piseev for helping his skaters if the Americans, Chinese and Canadians don't fight him? The Americans and Canadians are probably swapping off singles rules for pairs, because there is no discipline that Americans neglect supporting like the pairs. (Canadians less so)

Other than the original multiplier that was changed because Tim Goebel would have won the 2002 Olympics LP under the first version of COP, anyway.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

It's not just Pairs. Piseev is Cinquanta's right hand man. Cinquanta really doesn't know about figure skating and he relies on Piseev who tailors the rules, imo, to suit his skaters.

Joe