ISU to allow "neutral" skaters from RUS/BLR to compete at 2026 Olympics

[underrotatedflutz]

A bit new to the conversation here, what's the realistic chance of Tutberidze's skaters being eligible to qualify as neutral athletes?

 

[lariko]

A bit new to the conversation here, what's the realistic chance of Tutberidze's skaters being eligible to qualify as neutral athletes?

clause 4(d) of the ISU communication 2680 addresses that.

 

[YuBluByMe]

All right. I’ve read it. Twice. My knee-jerk reaction is that I hope the…”offer” is refused. There is nothing good that will result in it and it’ll make things irreparably worse. And I don’t like half-measures. Bring all back in or keep all out. But at the end of the day, I want Russian skaters to return to competition. But that thing needs to be amended and that is an understatement.

A simple background check complete with social media scrubs (have a good IT handy) takes about two weeks. An extensive one complete with interviewing contacts can take six months. But we’re not talking James Bond hopefuls here. The deadline should be extended. Perhaps 15th June? Realistically, that’s probably the latest it could be considering the qualifying event is in September and the review of multiple skaters. If the skaters are to finance their own expenses, then the skaters nominate themselves by filling out the application and the ISU could name a maximum amount of applicants that will be accepted for review. If substitutes can be used for the qualifying event then they can be used for the Olympics. ISU chooses who goes and who doesn’t. Prize money goes to the skater and skater only. RusFed needs to be taken out the picture.

“Nominated athletes and their support personnel must not have associated in any way with any personnel serving a period of ineligibility for an anti-doping violation.” Cut and dried. There’s a lot of Bacon’s Law games going on here and I’m not going to entertain that nonsense. Serving, not served or awaiting adjudication of a case. Otherwise, it’s not even Valieva that causes the most concern, but Doctor Snape.

“Any form of verbal, or non-verbal or written expression, explicit or implicit, at any time since February 24 2022, in particular public statements, including those made in social media, participation in pro-war demonstrations or events, and the wearing of any symbol in support of the war, are considered to be acts of support for the war in Ukraine.”

Writing a manifesto on your website declaring the war a great idea? You don’t qualify. Participation at Nationals? Good. Wearing the Z at a Putin rally? Outta here. Writing a poem on social media that coyly supports the war? Gone. It was mentioned on here that a few participated in Plushenko’s show but then posted outrage/remorse/regret/whatever. My opinion is that those skaters qualify because now there’s written implied expression that does not support the war.

EDIT: Removed a paragraph as there’s actually a second way to interpret that. The word implicit is getting on my damn nerves and opens up way too many cans of worms. I hate that whole paragraph.

If any athlete is found to be neutral and selected to participate in the Olympics then they should be treated as any other athlete. They’re allowed at press conferences. They can give interviews. They can talk to media. Matter of fact, I’m more concerned about the media. They’re the ones that need to be barred from talking to the skaters if they can’t act like they have home training. They need to be firmly told to only talk about skating.

If these changes can’t be made, then yeah, Russia should refuse. When an offer is refused, it could really make whoever made the offer look shamefaced if done in a certain way. “Do you want to try my baked chicken?” “No, thank you. Dust tends to upset my stomach.”

 

[jorge2912]

The most probably is that Russia won't accept it, but I wonder if there's Russian figure skater or ice dancers neutral? knowing that in the past government gave them BMW SUV and other things more for buy their for loyalty to the government..

 

[KhinSuShein]

As far as many news treads pop up on my timelines in various social media, apparently the Amercians wish so hard Russia send Tuktamysheva to the Olympics so that it cab definatly reduce the winning chances or zero chance at all. This is how i see and view the things. Everywhere i see they urge Russia must send only Tuktamysheva to the Olympics and not anyone else at all.

JP grils will be so happy to see Tuktamysheva as their rival. However I personally think Tuktamysheva will not go herself she will be pragmatic and realistically view herself that she can not even longer make triples.

Good luck for RU skaters, you need to unite and fught back strongly. Dont let others bully you at all costs in pretext of blah blah war.

Or you decide that you go altogether after war is finished. actually, at this stage, it is complete/total and absolute humiliation plus you are not even allowed to compete under your flag, what a great pity indeed!

Anyway imo the actual ISU international Champions, the ordinary people like us dont see at all them as true champons as the rules and regulations are cheated - their titles are 100% valuless. I once went to see so call GP competition, the stadium was almost empty- very small groups here and there. It was so boring. From time to time we hear some clappings from the one group then next one pass, the clapping from another one group and we dont even understand why should we clap or chear as we dont see anything extraordinary. Most of the times, people quit the hall as soon as it finishes. And then i wont never go because i saw how it was with own eyes. Yeach we spent 10 Euros. The quality is so low, teh so call step sequences are very boring.

Yeach you can not FOOL all people all the times. They have power, so they can do whatever they wish, but their doings are not viewed as just and fair by all.

 

[Mathman]

A simple background check complete with social media scrubs (have a good IT handy) takes about two weeks.

I don't think that the iSU should be in the business of vetting teenage skaters to make sure that they are properly opposed to the policies of their national government. Will this list be forwarded to President Putin?

 

[YuBluByMe]

I don't think that the iSU should be in the business of vetting teenage skaters to make sure that they are properly opposed to the policies of their national government. Will this list be forwarded to President Putin?

Of course they shouldn’t be vetted! ISU is not a strong organization. The leadership is made up of sleepy octogenarians that don’t even know what’s going on half the time. They also care way too much about public opinion.

I think it’s much too late for them to allow Russian skaters to return unconditionally because the ban happened and it happened during unresolved drug scandal(s). Banning allowed animosity and resentment to fester and it gave power to entities that shouldn’t have any who now have certain expectations. People wanted Russian skaters banned because of war and then ISU publicly agreed and did just that. They can no longer backtrack and allow them back in without throwing bones because it’s going to be a Charlie Foxtrot, which I’m sure will happen anyway. They could if they were a stronger organization, but they’re not.

The ban shouldn’t have happened in the first place. There would have been backlash, of course. And it would have died down just like everything else. The more I’m thinking about this, the more I feel that the answer should be no. I’m just afraid that the ban will last forever. It’s already been too long as it is.

 

[Mathman]

Of course they shouldn’t be vetted!

I just wanted to point out the absurdity of the task that the ISU has burdened itself with. Wjat possible good can come from the proposed plan?

 

[lariko]

There is only one Russian figure skater to date who immediately, openly and unequivocally spoke against the war. It was Mikhail Nazarychev. You want a skater who qualifies as a neutral Russian under these conditions? That's him. Last time I heard about him, he skated on cruise ships somewhere with his competitive career broken.

Judging by the RusFed's officials' response during the Russian Nationals, they will go ahead with this travesty.

 

[Arigato]

It really is simple, Russian girls are just better because it is a bigger sport in Russia.

If a female or male (gender is irrelevant) who skates in Russia has poor height and distance on their jumps, and lacks a good running edge out of those same jumps, I can't imagine anyone considering them "better" at much of anything.

 

[Mathman]

I can't imagine anyone considering them "better" at much of anything.

Well, that's the point of holding competitions. Is Petrosian better than Sakamoto? Is Amber Glenn for real this year? In the best of all possible worlds, this should not be settled in our imaginations only.

 

[el henry]

When something is written vaguely, it's not a bug, it's a feature. They want neutral athletes to be neutral, presumably and not oh we're really representing Mother Russia, wink wink nudge nudge. I really dislike the old wink wink nudge nudge in so many situations. It's cowardly. But I have no idea if that is the motivation, that is my guess.

Whether someone "misses" the neutral athletes depends on whether you have been watching them in the first place. I can't say I will miss them because I haven't been watching them. Others may.

The "asterisk" argument (oh that win has an asterisk because XYZ) is only important to fans of the sport, and then not to all fans. I spend zero time wondering about how skaters who are not at the Olympics would have performed if they were there. I would venture to guess most four year fans are the same. Again, just my guess.

 

[Arigato]

Well, that's the point of holding competitions. Is Petrosian better than Sakamoto? Is Amber Glenn for real this year? In the best of all possible worlds, this should not be settled in our imaginations only.

No.

There is set criteria for receiving positive GOE on jumps which include good height and distance. And it can be measured with software, but if you have been watching skating for decades, you just need a pair of eyes. Period. If a skater can't even meet that basic criteria, no one (regardless of name, gender, or country) has any business being called a good skater, let alone a better skater. Should someone try to claim such a poor jumper is good, it is definitely happening in their imagination since the skater fails the criteria. It would be annoying to see a skater get almost no height above the ice and almost no distance from the takeoff point, and it would be better off calling their jumps "standing in place and hopping an inch or two" than considering it an actual jump. If a skater that poor at jumping is getting positive GOE but failing the jump criteria, it is far more likely happening in a domestic competition than an international one. The international judges don't usually put up with that nonsense and they will indeed hammer the skater's GOE. Justifiably so.

A skater who is confined to domestic competitions only and is not competing internationally has no business being compared to any skater who is not confined to domestic competitions and is competing internationally. Apples and oranges. A rigorous, international judging panel has little in common with the heavy bias that can be present at many domestic events. That is why the ISU does not bother to include any of the scores from them - for obvious reasons.

 

[gkelly]

No.

There is set criteria for receiving positive GOE on jumps which include good height and distance.

"Very good height and distance" is one criterion for earning higher GOE on jump elements.

It is not a determination of who is or isn't a good skater. At most, it could be a defining characteristic of who is or isn't an outstanding jumper.

Skaters with small but consistent, well controlled jumps with good flow may not be considered great jumpers, but they can still be great skaters.

As is the case for many ice dancers.

And it can be measured with software, but if you have been watching skating for decades, you just need a pair of eyes. Period. If a skater can't even meet that basic criteria, no one (regardless of name, gender, or country) has any business being called a good skater, let alone a better skater.

Completely false. (See above.)

Should someone try to claim such a poor jumper is good, it is definitely happening in their imagination since the skater fails the criteria. It would be annoying to see a skater get almost no height above the ice and almost no distance from the takeoff point, and it would be better off calling their jumps "standing in place and hopping an inch or two" than considering it an actual jump.

If that is really true, then the skater would not be earning a positive bullet point for height and height and distance. Therefore they could never earn higher than +3 for those jumps.

If they can earn several other positive bullets, they could still get positive GOE. Or at worst base value/0 GOE.

If you want to see really small triples, watch novice competitions. Many of those skaters have smaller jumps than elite seniors, even taking into account respective body size. And if the landings are clean with some flow, their GOEs may not be negative.

If the jumps are flawed in other ways -- e.g., underrotated, scratchy, wobbly, going nowhere on the ice once landed, etc., then there will be negative GOE reductions.

There is GOE reduction of -1 to -3 for "Poor speed, height, distance, or air position" so a skater whose jumps have all those weaknesses is likely to get negative GOEs, even if they also meet some of the other positive criteria.

There's a huge range of quality/size between "poor" and "very good." Most skaters, especially elite-level senior skaters, will fall somewhere in the middle and will earn neither pluses nor minuses for the size of their jumps. It's a continuum, not an either or between excellent and worthless.

A "poor jumper" is generally a description used for skaters who can't rotate or can't land their jumps consistently. A skater who can do those things, albeit with average jump size, is not a poor jumper.

 

[Mathman]

They want neutral athletes to be neutral, presumably and not oh we're really representing Mother Russia, wink wink nudge nudge.

I think that this is the problem. I don't see how the ISU can expect that Russian skaters will forget that they are Russian or that fans and partisans will forget what country the "neutral" athletes have trained in and competed for. I believe that this proposal has wink, wink, snicker, snicker built into it from the get-go.

That said, I do have sympathy for the ISU. As I understand it, the impetus for this proposal came from the International Olympic Committee, which, for better or for worse, is trying to ease sanctions on Russian athletes in the spirit (perhaps naive) of "sports should rise above considerations of global and national politics, war, & peace, etc." On the other hand, there are powerful outside (non-skating) pressures that urge organizations like the ISU to hold firm.

To me, there is only one satisfactory resolutionton to the crisis, and neither the ISU nor the IOC can do anything to he;lp bring it about. We live in a wink, wink, snicker, snicker world. I also believe that we are only deluding ourselves if we pertend that this has anything to do with whether Russian ladies skate better or worse than ladies from other countries.

 

[flakyy]

I think the athletes nominated by the federation should be admitted as neutrals, no flag, as long as they haven't said anything justifying let alone glorifying the war. Imagine living in this country, being invited to a Kremlin Gala and saying "no". This would be highly imprudent at least. And who wants to risk anything for Ukraine; on the contrary, most of them will probably be against a war per se, but nonetheless follow the narrative about Russia being encircled, deprived and suppressed by the West, combined with being proud Russians. The attitude "I'm a sportsperson, politics is not for me" is widely common in Russia, carefully crafted by the president. Take Shostakovich the composer - he carefully (with very good reason) manouvered his live through the Soviet Union, integrating critical (musical) allusions (most of the time censors were to stupid to search for or detect them), remaining silent or saying something approved by the system here and there (that alone would get him disqualified).
Besides: would every athlete of every country waging war or commiting genocide of some time need a proof of his political thinking of this kind, competitions would become not very populated. It's striking that Russian athlets are admitted to certain disciplines (Tennis never was a problem), while certain federations remain adamant (biathlon, cross-country skiing, gymnastics, RGM) ... where the others don't have a disadvantage because of missing athletes, to put it mildly.
The political sanctions obviously were/are ineffective in stopping this war (only decisive action could have achieved that), and they couldn't/can't do anything about Putin's secured position. These are Western wishes and fantasies. Figure skating is not a real problem in this troubled world, but it shows that this world is really beyond help.

 

[Artemisa]

No.

There is set criteria for receiving positive GOE on jumps which include good height and distance. And it can be measured with software, but if you have been watching skating for decades, you just need a pair of eyes. Period. If a skater can't even meet that basic criteria, no one (regardless of name, gender, or country) has any business being called a good skater, let alone a better skater. Should someone try to claim such a poor jumper is good, it is definitely happening in their imagination since the skater fails the criteria. It would be annoying to see a skater get almost no height above the ice and almost no distance from the takeoff point, and it would be better off calling their jumps "standing in place and hopping an inch or two" than considering it an actual jump. If a skater that poor at jumping is getting positive GOE but failing the jump criteria, it is far more likely happening in a domestic competition than an international one. The international judges don't usually put up with that nonsense and they will indeed hammer the skater's GOE. Justifiably so.

A skater who is confined to domestic competitions only and is not competing internationally has no business being compared to any skater who is not confined to domestic competitions and is competing internationally. Apples and oranges. A rigorous, international judging panel has little in common with the heavy bias that can be present at many domestic events. That is why the ISU does not bother to include any of the scores from them - for obvious reasons.

Some things can be less strict in domestic (and some judges internationally aren't always no bias or better than domestic) ... but 3A is 3A and 4 is a 4 no matter what ... The same can be said of the skaters in international competition .. if you never been against the russian skaters ... you shouldn't be calling the best ... at least in women and in pairs (people like it or not). And none is better in pairs that M/G or B/K you can bring the judge that you choose in any competition ... or better at this point than adelina you can analyze her skate withe every panel ( even if I like kaori very much)

 

[Mathman]

No.
..., you just need a pair of eyes. Period.

I think it is better in these discussions to stick tho the facts. The fact is, we don't know how ISU judging panels would score Petrosian in international competition.

Opinion? My opinion is that we are not likely to find out, at least for this cycle.

 

[lariko]

I think the athletes nominated by the federation should be admitted as neutrals, no flag, as long as they haven't said anything justifying let alone glorifying the war. Imagine living in this country, being invited to a Kremlin Gala and saying "no". This would be highly imprudent at least.

In 2022, lots of organizations sent letter protesting the war. Russian historians, artists, staff, students and alumnae of various universities, elected officials of the municipal bodies expressed their opposition to war publically, openly, with their signatures before the laws forbade protest.

RusFed wasn't one of these organizations. Not a single representative of RusFed attended Navalny's funerals, nor did any figure skater numbered among the individual, neutral, private citizens of Russia who did.

While doping wasn't on the original list of reasons why Russia was banned, it is now a part of this shady deal. RusFed supported and continues to support a tainted skater and her Support Personnel that shamed entire Russian figure skating in the most humiliating and public forum possible. For years.

ISU continues to empower RusFed. ISU didn't pass a motion to remove them from the decision loop on transfers that actually gave Russian athletes some degree of freedom to own their fate without breaking their careers like Nazarychev. As a result, RusFed blocked dozens of transfers. In this deal, ISU invented some thorny and convoluted clauses that smack of toxic squabble rather than honest transparent process.

IOC banned Russia for breaking the Olympic truth. The Olympic truth has not been restored. Amnesty has not been declared for all Russian figure skaters. Children and young adults are banned from competing in the JGP with their peers in hopes of building a better future sportsmanship.

It is a colossal injustice that six grown-ups will become exempt by the RusFed from the most compliant cohorts who maintained business as usual for this one over-hyped competition.

Sport doesn't benefit. Peace doesn't benefit. Society doesn't benefit. Viewers don't benefit. Athletes don't benefit.

Everything about this process is thoroughly corrupt, hypocritical and foul. There is no other way to look at it.

Yes, there comes time to understand and forgive, but such compassion is a very, very different thing from temporarily closing one eye and winking another.

 

[Mathman]

If that is really true, then the skater would not be earning a positive bullet point for height and height and distance. Therefore they could never earn higher than +3 for those jumps.

Also, there is the % of base value feature. A skater who gets +3 GOE on a triple Axel earns the same in extra points as does a skater who gets +4 on a triple Lutz (2.40 to 2.36).