Kim's representatives end Orser's coaching relationship threads merged

[Mathman]

But here’s the thing, R.D. Figure skating as not the real world, it is our escape from the real world. Hence the heros (Michelle/Wonderwoman) and ogres (judges).

Everyone knows that Michelle Kwan is not perfect, but it is so much fun to pretend to believe that she is.

(This board exists only in my mind…)

 

[bekalc]

Significant difference in circumstances though: With Kim/Orser this happened AFTER she won the OGM. Yuna, for whatever reason, stuck it out with Brian until she won that OGM, then the differences began. However, with Kwan/Carroll, MK broke it off a few months BEFORE the Olympics. It wasn't so much the decision to let go of Carroll as it was the decision to not have someone to replace him that I thought was a completely idiotic move. Sometimes I wonder if deep down she regrets doing that, but what's done is done and we have no choice but to move forward.

Not to mention you can argue that Yu-na was already on top before she went to Brian (or close to it). I mean the girl was Senior Grand Prix Final Champion BEFORE he took her on. Not saying he didn't do quite a lot to help her win the OGM. But this is not the same situation as Michelle and Frank where Frank literally raised Michelle up from a very young skater, and taught her most of what she knew. Not the same at all.
Not saying Brian isn't a brilliant coach who won't eventually develop some people. But she's not a kid he took from no where. The situation is way more similar to Tarasova taking on Yagudin, and yes making him better and being a big part of why he became Olympic champ. But the guy was already a world champ before she got him, clearly someone else did a lot of work before her.

Now I think Brian is a gifted technical coach who is starting to develop young talent.

 

[ilfs]

But here’s the thing, R.D. Figure skating as not the real world, it is our escape from the real world. Hence the heros (Michelle/Wonderwoman) and ogres (judges).

Everyone knows that Michelle Kwan is not perfect, but it is so much fun to pretend to believe that she is.

(This board exists only in my mind…)

I think some of us have taken the red pill.

 

[Mrs. P]

Not to mention you can argue that Yu-na was already on top before she went to Brian (or close to it). I mean the girl was Senior Grand Prix Final Champion BEFORE he took her on. Not saying he didn't do quite a lot to help her win the OGM. But this is not the same situation as Michelle and Frank where Frank literally raised Michelle up from a very young skater, and taught her most of what she knew. Not the same at all.
Not saying Brian isn't a brilliant coach who won't eventually develop some people. But she's not a kid he took from no where. The situation is way more similar to Tarasova taking on Yagudin, and yes making him better and being a big part of why he became Olympic champ. But the guy was already a world champ before she got him, clearly someone else did a lot of work before her.

Now I think Brian is a gifted technical coach who is starting to develop young talent.

I think an important thing to point out though that Yu-na was burnt out and injured. She had grown up under the Korean system of learning by endless repetition, which while may produce some short-term results could result in some injuries.

I think Brian really help teach Yuna pace herself and train properly while Wilson taught her that it's not just about the jumps.

I really doubt that Yu-na would have continued on much longer if she had stayed with her Korean coach.

 

[bekalc]

I think an important thing to point out though that Yu-na was burnt out and injured. She had grown up under the Korean system of learning by endless repetition, which while may produce some short-term results could result in some injuries.

I think Brian really help teach Yuna pace herself and train properly while Wilson taught her that it's not just about the jumps.

I really doubt that Yu-na would have continued on much longer if she had stayed with her Korean coach.

I agree Yu-na needed a coaching change. I'm not saying she didn't.
Yuna was showing some developments of artistry in Korea. But I agree about learning to train properly. But the point is there were probably several coaches who could have showed her that. Not saying Orser isn't brilliant, but Yu-na needed someone to help her package grow as an artist and teach her how to pace herself properly. If she had gone to Tarasova well, Tarsaova could have done just that (while forcing her to point her toe too) Of course who knows what kind of programs Tarasova would have given her. But if they were more like Sashas...

I mean its the same with Yagudin, Tarasova really developed him as an artist (more so than IMO Yu-na because Yagudin looked almost to me hopeless before). She deserves HUGE credit, but another coach had done a lot of the ground work with him. Now I think Orser is a better technical coach than Tatiana and will eventually develop a lot of skaters more from the ground up, but its fair to say Yu-na wasn't one of them.

In fact Yu-na fit the profile more of what Tatiana needs from a skater than Mao. Mao had some technical issues with jumps from the very beginning which were going to cause troubles when she gets older. And Tarasova does her best with students who already have strong technical jumps/skills already. Of course Yu-na couldn't have done well under part time. But full time now doubt Tarasova, Nicks a bunch of them would have taught Yu-na how to pace herself etc.

 

[hurrah]

Would have, could have, might have...

What does it matter if Brian Orser isn't the only coach who would/could/might have given Yuna what she needed to get to the top? It doesn't change the fact that he did.

Brian Orser never complained 'I should not have been dumped'. No one here is saying that he should not have been dumped. The discussion is about the manner in which he was dumped, and speculation as to why?

Maybe he was dumped because he wasn't the best person to teach her the 3-loop, which seems quite a strange reason to dump a coach, given that he was doing so much right.

 

[ilfs]

Maybe he was dumped because he wasn't the best person to teach her the 3-loop, which seems quite a strange reason to dump a coach, given that he was doing so much right.

The best evidentary public information thus far amply indicates a case of mistrust followed by a case of incommunicado developing when Mao entered the picture in their prefessional relationship. What makes you think it was the 3loop ?

 

[chloepoco]

I agree Yu-na needed a coaching change. I'm not saying she didn't.
Yuna was showing some developments of artistry in Korea. But I agree about learning to train properly. But the point is there were probably several coaches who could have showed her that. Not saying Orser isn't brilliant, but Yu-na needed someone to help her package grow as an artist and teach her how to pace herself properly. If she had gone to Tarasova well, Tarsaova could have done just that (while forcing her to point her toe too) Of course who knows what kind of programs Tarasova would have given her. But if they were more like Sashas...

I mean its the same with Yagudin, Tarasova really developed him as an artist (more so than IMO Yu-na because Yagudin looked almost to me hopeless before). She deserves HUGE credit, but another coach had done a lot of the ground work with him. Now I think Orser is a better technical coach than Tatiana and will eventually develop a lot of skaters more from the ground up, but its fair to say Yu-na wasn't one of them.

In fact Yu-na fit the profile more of what Tatiana needs from a skater than Mao. Mao had some technical issues with jumps from the very beginning which were going to cause troubles when she gets older. And Tarasova does her best with students who already have strong technical jumps/skills already. Of course Yu-na couldn't have done well under part time. But full time now doubt Tarasova, Nicks a bunch of them would have taught Yu-na how to pace herself etc.

It wasn't too long ago that everyone was raving about what a wonderful and perfect coach Brian was for Yuna....how quickly things change.

 

[hurrah]

What makes you think it was the 3loop ?

I don't think it was the 3-loop. It was bekalc who suggested that this might have been a factor. Read his post. My previous post was in response to what he had written.

 

[ilfs]

I don't think it was the 3-loop. It was bekalc who suggested that this might have been a factor. Read his post. My previous post was in response to what he had written.

I see. My misunderstanding.

 

[hurrah]

The best evidentary public information thus far amply indicates a case of mistrust followed by a case of incommunicado developing when Mao entered the picture in their prefessional relationship.

I quite liked the theory that was floated a while back that Yuna's mother, as the CEO of ATS, wanted Brian Orser as well as Adam Rippon and Christina Gao to leave IMG and join them. When they chose to renew their contract in May with IMG instead, the CEO decided to fire him.

That kind of made sense to me. But again, it's all speculation!

 

[ilfs]

I quite liked the theory that was floated a while back that Yuna's mother, as the CEO of ATS, wanted Brian Orser as well as Adam Rippon and Christina Gao to leave IMG and join them. When they chose to renew their contract in May with IMG instead, the CEO decided to fire him.

That kind of made sense to me. But again, it's all speculation!

I think your speculation is as good any as we would never know the finer details. But certainly it is reasonable to link the business aspect of a new competitive agency.

 

[hurrah]

:disapp:

I think your speculation is as good any as we would never know the finer details. But certainly it is reasonable to link the business aspect of a new competitive agency.

Yeah, and see, if this was actually just a business decision at the end of the day, then ATS certainly dealt with the firing of Brian in a very unprofessional manner, showing themselves to be a bunch of amateurs, which is the main criticism that's been waged again and again on this forum.

 

[Daniel5555]

chloepoco

Japan Open.

But it's not a show, it's a competition. http://www.skatingjapan.jp/

R.D.

You must understand, I'm not saying she isn't a good person. (No way to know unless we're part of her immediate friends/family circle.) I'm saying that there is often a difference between the way people act when the cameras are rolling, and the way these same people act when the cameras are off. I've seen this firsthand...

Well, this is something obvious... But, btw, we CAN know. If we know at least some of their actions, we can make a judgement.

Her choice of words often times leaves me with the impression that she is going out of her way to be less candid and more PC. Nothing wrong with that, but don't you think for a minute that it means that she's this perfect "can-do-no-wrong" angel.

I don't know about Michelle, but Yuna's choice of words usually makes me feel that she is straightforward, or candid if you want me to say.

(Think Tiger Woods, how he was portrayed by the press and fans before his private dealings came out.) Just like Yuna- so many of her fanboys (or "bots", insert your favorite word here) always MUST blame the other party in case of conflict or controversy. Maybe, guys, it's possible that Yuna took a misstep or two as well? Especially her Twitter outburst? But of course, such action will be defended with blind fandom. It can NEVER be her fault...

Yes, some people do so, I agree. Obviously, Yuna had some faults too, the Twitter is one of those, probably there are more... But, I think, that this action can be defended to the certain extent too, because some people certainly exaggerate the gravity of it, while we don't know the situation. I'm against the blind fandom, I just want to appreciate the true qualities while fully realising the errors and flaws of a person. On the other hand I find that often those true and really presented qualities are misappreciated. And that happens not only with Yuna, but with others too.
It's ok to criticize and not to be a fan or be only fan of skating. What's not ok, I think, is the arrogancy of some people who don't know how to appreciate the others and can't considerate others.

Anyway, not too related to the above, but MK was a guest analyst for NBC sports during their much abbreviated coverage of the 2009 World Championships in LA. Now, the point of an analyst is to dissect the field, each competitor, weigh the strengths and weaknesses among the athletes to reach a prediction as to who might come out on top. She was paired with Dick Button and Bob Costas in the booth. At the conclusion of the broadcast, Costas posed a short series of questions to Button and Kwan. Now, to be fair to MK, Button has a lot more experience as a commentator, and isn't afraid to speak his mind about what he thinks about a particular skater. But what struck me about MK is that she always seemed to go out of her way not to say anything controversial or critical about any of the skaters. Once Costas FINALLY stopped asking her about a possible return (seriously), he then pointed out that only 2 Americans are going to the Olys. MK responded with "but we're improving, Americans are improving" (Button laughed) She clearly tried to put a positive spin on the whole thing.

And so what? Maybe it's her opinion. She may be not a good analyst, that's all.

Idol, hero, same difference to me

The difference is that idol is worshipped blindly, the heroes are not.

http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=idol

http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=hero

Mathman

But here’s the thing, R.D. Figure skating as not the real world, it is our escape from the real world. Hence the heros (Michelle/Wonderwoman) and ogres (judges).

It's a real world. There is no escape from real world.

Everyone knows that Michelle Kwan is not perfect, but it is so much fun to pretend to believe that she is.

Michelle Kwan is not perfect, but she is much more above the average and she is good enough to be worth of being loved and admired (edited: instead of "worshipping") for life long. Isn't that true, at least right now?

 

[ilfs]

:disapp:

Yeah, and see, if this was actually just a business decision at the end of the day, then ATS certainly dealt with the firing of Brian in a very unprofessional manner, showing themselves to be a bunch of amateurs, which is the main criticism that's been waged again and again on this forum.

Yes I see that, but ultimately it's the "chicken or the egg" question. Which came first, who precipitated it, is the very much public cause-effect mud-slinging on both sides.

Surely, ATS needs to realize that Yuna is no-longer merely a Korean star but a global one, whose public life and her representative words are scrutized and weighed against existing standards of her caliber(fifth highest grossing female athlete ?). No doubt ATS handled it badly.

 

[R.D.]

I don't know about Michelle, but Yuna's choice of words usually makes me feel that she is straightforward, or candid if you want me to say.

well...as we found out a couple of days ago, Yuna is certainly capable of being candid she was quite "to the point" in her open letter denouncing the rumors...I think some of that candor may arise from the language barrier, though. Often times, it's harder to use more flowery wording in a language you're not fluent in, which limits you to more basic words and phrases.

Yes, some people do so, I agree. Obviously, Yuna had some faults too, the Twitter is one of those, probably there are more... But, I think, that this action can be defended to the certain extent too, because some people certainly exaggerate the gravity of it, while we don't know the situation. I'm against the blind fandom, I just want to appreciate the true qualities while fully realising the errors and flaws of a person.

...which is the way fandom should be. Beyond that, it crosses that dangerous line into fanaticism and blind worship. When one can no longer see straight and is overlooking a person's flaws which are displayed right in front of him/her, he/she has gone off the deep end, turned to the dark side And this phenomenon is not only experienced with celebrities...I think you know where this is going.

It's ok to criticize and not to be a fan or be only fan of skating. What's not ok, I think, is the arrogancy of some people who don't know how to appreciate the others and can't considerate others.

true this

And so what? Maybe it's her opinion. She may be not a good analyst, that's all.

I thought NBC would invite her back for the 2010 Nats/Olympics, but they didn't. Honestly, she did not add any substance to their coverage. A bit of eye candy, maybe (I'll admit, they did her up well), but that's about it.

Tara Lipinski on Ice Network, and later US, OTOH - now we're talkin'. She knows her stuff.

Michelle Kwan is not perfect, but she is much more above the average and she is good enough to be worth of being worshipped for life long. Isn't that true, at least right now?

NO mortal person deserves to be "worshipped"! That's something reserved only for deities in your respective religion...

JMHO.

 

[hurrah]

Yes I see that, but ultimately it's the "chicken or the egg" question. Which came first, who precipitated it, is the very much public cause-effect mud-slinging on both sides.

Well, I'm sure it's not just Brian Orser or Yuna or her mom who 'caused' this.

What caused Yuna and her mom to behave as if they believed that they were the center of the universe and that they rightly deserved preferential treatment in all matters and could never do any wrong?

There must surely have been a situation/environment where they could believe that they were indeed deemed to be the center of the universe and would get preferential treatment at all times no matter what.

Maintaining deification is hard work, and requires cooperation in great numbers. There must have been great many accomplices involved in maintaining that fiction. All those that were involved in it 'caused' it, I believe.

 

[ilfs]

What caused Yuna and her mom to behave as if they believed that they were the center of the universe and that they rightly deserved preferential treatment in all matters and could never do any wrong?

There must surely have been a situation/environment where they could believe that they were indeed deemed to be the center of the universe and would get preferential treatment at all times no matter what.

Not sure if "center of the universe" is appropriate, but most certainly they were the center of the skating world on the heels of their unprecedented success at Vancouver. Perhaps it was a case of success driven arrogance, but I rather think it was just a case of inexperience.

 

[ilfs]

One thing we must always remember is that Mom is always right even when she is wrong.

 

[Blades of Passion]

One thing we must always remember is that Mom is always right even when she is wrong.

Ewww.

And 1,000 replies to this thread. :disapp: